airtwardo 7 #126 December 10, 2009 Quote Quote So, if I might ask Kallend, why do you think the night jumps are a requirement? Macho rite of passage dating back decades. Ya hear that GrannyintheSky? Ease up on the testosterone a little okay?! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,026 #127 December 10, 2009 QuoteQuotePersons holding a USPA D license are able to exercise all privileges of a C-license holder, are eligible for all USPA ratings, and must have- a. met all current requirements for or hold a USPA C license b. completed 500 jumps including accumulating at least three hours of controlled freefall time c. made two night jumps (one solo and one in a group) with a freefall of at least 20 seconds (1) with verification of prior night-jump training from a USPA Instructor holding a USPA D license (2) with the advice of an S&TA, in accordance with USPA BSRs d. Passed the written USPA D license exam conducted by a current USPA I/E, S&TA, or USPA Board member. What else is there? Maybe the point of having night jumps is to make the D license something that is not just an expression of the number of jumps you have. Maybe noone had any better ideas to make it actually special & hard to get? Yep, it's pretty stupid, isn't it. If someone started from scratch with no preconceived ideas, I very much doubt they would come up with anything like this. There are lots of far more valuable skills than night jumping that are conspicuous by their absence. And again I point out that you could land on a roof or in a tree, have a canopy collision or break both femurs and STILL pass the night jump requirement. The requirement as it stands is a complete farce.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
danielcroft 2 #128 December 10, 2009 Ok, so what about 3 night jumps? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewwhyte 1 #129 December 10, 2009 QuoteQuoteSince night tandems are not allowed it still makes no sense. Where does it say no night tandems? you are correct, providing the passenger has a B-license. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybill 22 #130 December 10, 2009 Quote Ok, so what about 3 night jumps? Hi Dan, 4!!! 4!!!! lets go for 4!!!!! what the hell! 'Jez wonderin' if all the troops doin' all the bitchin' have any night jumps and or their D!! 'Did night jumps before I got my D, after I got my D, at midnight, cold as hell and no moon, night jumps with some to a full moon (the boogiemen were out!!) yadda' yadda' and etc. Next thing these troops will probably bitch about is having to make parachute jumps, with and without freefall, to be a Skydiver!!!!! Lets just give everyone a trophy so they can all feel good!!!!Oh Yeah, Well they can all go soak their socks in gasoline .....................so the ants won't crawl up their legs and eat their candy assSCR-2034, SCS-680 III%, Deli-out Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #131 December 10, 2009 Quote Ok, so what about 3 night jumps? *** Sounds good to me...The last one being required to turn 10 points, deploy clean & then cutaway intentionally, right into completing a 4 stack on reserves, followed up by landing in water...concluding with bench pressin' personal body weight 100 times before your leather thong drys out. Talk about a REAL macho rite of passage! ~Maybe we should discuss and not just speculate, without any preconceived opinions...some other possible benefits regarding the necessity (or lack of) a required performance at night 'other than', a said old school demonstration of machismo. Might it not also be a quick & easy way of evaluating a persons ability to put several necessary tools together at once, both mechanical & intuitive...in a scenario somewhat 'different' yet still skill applicable? Askin' someone that can walk & chew gum every day with confidence, to do it uphill as a test, really isn't dumb. . .displaying flexible adaptation of body & brain in order to complete an ordinarily unfamiliar task is an important challenge. Heck it's fun, and as a side benefit it gives ya confidence and is a comfort to those jumping around ya! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,026 #132 December 10, 2009 Quote Ok, so what about 3 night jumps? Farce * 150% = bigger farce.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 5 #133 December 11, 2009 Quote Quote Quote Does this mean a "D" license or logged and signed-off night jumps should be required for sunset loads? Nope, but it does mean that it's silly to think that one won't ever be jumping in very dim/near dark conditions. You do realize the complete lack of logic in your position, right? Quote It's no more, no less logical than several things in skydiving. You commented earlier that one doesn't NEED to land at night. "Night" is subjective. Taken on their own, I could agree that night jumps are meaningless. Successful night jumps demonstrate a certain level of confidence and ability, however. Taken in tandem with other skills, it says quite a bit about someone's abilities, IMO. Quote A "D" license is a choice. If you want a D license, step up and earn it. If you don't, be satisfied with what you've chosen to achieve. I did, and before you did, it seems. Yeah, I know you earned your D license before me. At 200 vs 500 jumps. You were a grandparent before me, and you were the oldest wingsuiter in Elsinore (as you repeatedly boasted to so many). I have a rare PF shirt.. What difference does it make? Kind of an illogical argument, I'd say. I can still take you in a distance jump. If nothing else, night jumps, like a PRO rating, say something about someone's desire to be as capable as they can be, and demonstrates a desire to go as far as possible in the sport. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,026 #134 December 11, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuote Does this mean a "D" license or logged and signed-off night jumps should be required for sunset loads? Nope, but it does mean that it's silly to think that one won't ever be jumping in very dim/near dark conditions. You do realize the complete lack of logic in your position, right? Quote It's no more, no less logical than several things in skydiving. That sounds suspiciously like a "two wrongs make a right" argument. Quote You commented earlier that one doesn't NEED to land at night. "Night" is subjective. Incorrect. The FAA, which ultimately governs our sport in the USA, has a very precise definition of "night". See FAR 1-1 and FAR 105-19. Quote Taken on their own, I could agree that night jumps are meaningless. Successful night jumps demonstrate a certain level of confidence and ability, however. Taken in tandem with other skills, it says quite a bit about someone's abilities, IMO. QuoteA "D" license is a choice. If you want a D license, step up and earn it. If you don't, be satisfied with what you've chosen to achieve. I did, and before you did, it seems. If nothing else, night jumps, like a PRO rating, say something about someone's desire to be as capable as they can be, and demonstrates a desire to go as far as possible in the sport. Indeed, I don't disagree with that, but that is not a justification for night jumps, as opposed to other more relevant skills, being required for a license to exercise certain privileges to which night jumps have no relevance.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 7 #135 December 11, 2009 ... but that is not a justification for night jumps, as opposed to other more relevant skills, being required for a license to exercise certain privileges to which night jumps have no relevance. *** Unless of course you want to exercise said 'certain privileges'... At Night. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andy9o8 2 #136 December 11, 2009 QuoteExplain how 2 (just 2, with no defined criterion for success) night jumps are so desperately REQUIRED but CRW, bigway experience, advanced canopy flight, sit, head down, etc., are not. Maybe they should be, and the D-license requirements should be updated (read: modernized) accordingly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 4 #137 December 11, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteSince night tandems are not allowed it still makes no sense. Where does it say no night tandems? you are correct, providing the passenger has a B-license. USPA has the following requirements for a night jump: J. Extraordinary skydives 1. Night, water, and demonstration jumps are to be performed only with the advice of the local USPA S&TA, Instructor Examiner, or Regional Director. [NW] The FAA has this to say about night jumps: 1. FAA regulations [FAR 105.19] require that when performing night jumps, each skydiver must display a light that is visible for at least three statute miles from the time the jumper is under an open parachute until landing. [NW] No mention of any required license by either. I ask again, where does it say not night tandems? For that matter where does it say AFF can't be done at night? SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Guru312 0 #138 December 11, 2009 Quote \ You haven't really lived until you've shot downwind accuracy under a Para-Commander! Ahem...you haven't really lived until you've shot downwind accuracy under a 28ft 7-TU and a watermelon sticking you in the gut. After getting my I-rating and opening my own DZ I didn't have time to log all my jumps. I'm sure my numbers are 500 more than what I posted here but I can only 'account' for about 900 from logs. It isn't a matter of integrity or veracity with most old farts. it's just easier to not log jumps than have to look for a logbook, a pen and a pair of glasses.Guru312 I am not DB Cooper Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,026 #139 December 11, 2009 Quote ... but that is not a justification for night jumps, as opposed to other more relevant skills, being required for a license to exercise certain privileges to which night jumps have no relevance. *** Unless of course you want to exercise said 'certain privileges'... At Night. You only need a "B" to jump at night. If you want to INSTRUCT at night, I'd suggest 2 prior night jumps in which you broke both femurs would be inadequate preparation even though they'd qualify for the "D" under current rules. I'm not aware that USPA runs nationals events at night. Niggling little details and anyway, your argument is circular.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 7 #140 December 11, 2009 ...and your argument is circular. *** So was my parachute the first couple hundred jumps. ~ Your argument seems to be centered around a fear of things that go THUMP in the night! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,026 #141 December 11, 2009 Quote ...and your argument is circular. *** So was my parachute the first couple hundred jumps. ~ Your argument seems to be centered around a fear of things that go THUMP in the night! Jim, I remind you that I DO have my "D" license and it's not restricted.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 7 #142 December 11, 2009 Quote Quote ...and your argument is circular. *** So was my parachute the first couple hundred jumps. ~ Your argument seems to be centered around a fear of things that go THUMP in the night! Jim, I remind you that I DO have my "D" license and it's not restricted. I know, I didn't mean to suggest you had a fear of being a nocturnal falling object.....only of gettin' HIT by one! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites timmyfitz 0 #143 December 11, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteSince night tandems are not allowed it still makes no sense. Where does it say no night tandems? you are correct, providing the passenger has a B-license. USPA has the following requirements for a night jump: J. Extraordinary skydives 1. Night, water, and demonstration jumps are to be performed only with the advice of the local USPA S&TA, Instructor Examiner, or Regional Director. [NW] The FAA has this to say about night jumps: 1. FAA regulations [FAR 105.19] require that when performing night jumps, each skydiver must display a light that is visible for at least three statute miles from the time the jumper is under an open parachute until landing. [NW] No mention of any required license by either. I ask again, where does it say not night tandems? For that matter where does it say AFF can't be done at night? Sparky Here ya go. BSR. Section 2-1, E, 9 Quote9. All student jumps, including tandems, must be completed between official sunrise and sunset. [NW] Edit to add. From UPT from Vector Tandem manual QuoteWARNING Read this information carefully and understand it completely. Any jump that utilizes the Tandem Vector System is considered a “tandem jump’: Using this system outside the student/ Tan-dem lnstructor training environments considered a violation of federal law (FAA exemp&on No. 4943) Examples of violations: demonstration jumps; stunt jumps; intentional water jumps; night jumps; jumping with any student less than 1 S years of age; any tandem jump that takes place off of a designated drop zone. (These restrictions do not apply to military Tandem applications). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,026 #144 December 11, 2009 Quote Quote Quote ...and your argument is circular. *** So was my parachute the first couple hundred jumps. ~ Your argument seems to be centered around a fear of things that go THUMP in the night! Jim, I remind you that I DO have my "D" license and it's not restricted. I know, I didn't mean to suggest you had a fear of being a nocturnal falling object.....only of gettin' HIT by one! Good point: if your intrepid D-license wannabe hits another person in the air or on the ground and kills or maims them during the completion of his/her night jump requirement, the night jump STILL counts.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,026 #145 December 11, 2009 QuoteQuoteExplain how 2 (just 2, with no defined criterion for success) night jumps are so desperately REQUIRED but CRW, bigway experience, advanced canopy flight, sit, head down, etc., are not. Maybe they should be, and the D-license requirements should be updated (read: modernized) accordingly. I suggest a good place to start would be a thorough analysis of the fatalities database to see how experienced skydivers are actually killing themselves. Even a cursory analysis shows that it's not on sunset loads. The area that calls out for attention is clearly canopy skill.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites popsjumper 2 #146 December 11, 2009 QuoteQuote Does this mean a "D" license or logged and signed-off night jumps should be required for sunset loads? Nope, but it does mean that it's silly to think that one won't ever be jumping in very dim/near dark conditions What???? That silly argument again? You have no control over getting on a jumpship when it might be dumping in those conditions? I think it's silly to think that you WILL put yourself in a situation where you might be jumping in very dim/near dark conditions....we do have the choice of not boarding in those conditions. Nobody says anyone HAS TO board. Those that want to...go! Have fun! Those that don't want to and are smart enough to say nay to the peer pressure can watch from the ground.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,026 #147 December 11, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuote Does this mean a "D" license or logged and signed-off night jumps should be required for sunset loads? Nope, but it does mean that it's silly to think that one won't ever be jumping in very dim/near dark conditions What???? That silly argument again? You have no control over getting on a jumpship when it might be dumping in those conditions? I think it's silly to think that you WILL put yourself in a situation where you might be jumping in very dim/near dark conditions....we do have the choice of not boarding in those conditions. Nobody says anyone HAS TO board. Those that want to...go! Have fun! Those that don't want to and are smart enough to say nay to the peer pressure can watch from the ground. Anyone jumping even 1 minute after sunset without a light that can be seen for 3 miles is making an ILLEGAL jump anyway (14CFR Part 105-19).... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites popsjumper 2 #148 December 11, 2009 We've come a long way from "Jumper Integrity & Logbook Veracity". My thought is to put the water jump back in and throw out the night jump requirement for D license. Hell make water sooner than D. When I step out the door, it's much more likely that I would accidently land in water than accidently step out at night. My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites huge 0 #149 December 11, 2009 Quote Good point: if your intrepid D-license wannabe hits another person in the air or on the ground and kills or maims them during the completion of his/her night jump requirement, the night jump STILL counts. Ignoring the night jumps, is there some kind of a quality criteria for the 500 jumps that are required for the D license? Can you kill and maim other jumpers on, let's say, 250 of those jumps and still qualify for the D license? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DSE 5 #150 December 11, 2009 And with 6500' mountains very close to the DZ, as well as the Great Salt Lake and its supporting ponds, it's equally as likely that an "after sunset" exit and water landing are going to occur. How about adding night water landings as a D requirement? 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airtwardo 7 #135 December 11, 2009 ... but that is not a justification for night jumps, as opposed to other more relevant skills, being required for a license to exercise certain privileges to which night jumps have no relevance. *** Unless of course you want to exercise said 'certain privileges'... At Night. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #136 December 11, 2009 QuoteExplain how 2 (just 2, with no defined criterion for success) night jumps are so desperately REQUIRED but CRW, bigway experience, advanced canopy flight, sit, head down, etc., are not. Maybe they should be, and the D-license requirements should be updated (read: modernized) accordingly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #137 December 11, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteSince night tandems are not allowed it still makes no sense. Where does it say no night tandems? you are correct, providing the passenger has a B-license. USPA has the following requirements for a night jump: J. Extraordinary skydives 1. Night, water, and demonstration jumps are to be performed only with the advice of the local USPA S&TA, Instructor Examiner, or Regional Director. [NW] The FAA has this to say about night jumps: 1. FAA regulations [FAR 105.19] require that when performing night jumps, each skydiver must display a light that is visible for at least three statute miles from the time the jumper is under an open parachute until landing. [NW] No mention of any required license by either. I ask again, where does it say not night tandems? For that matter where does it say AFF can't be done at night? SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guru312 0 #138 December 11, 2009 Quote \ You haven't really lived until you've shot downwind accuracy under a Para-Commander! Ahem...you haven't really lived until you've shot downwind accuracy under a 28ft 7-TU and a watermelon sticking you in the gut. After getting my I-rating and opening my own DZ I didn't have time to log all my jumps. I'm sure my numbers are 500 more than what I posted here but I can only 'account' for about 900 from logs. It isn't a matter of integrity or veracity with most old farts. it's just easier to not log jumps than have to look for a logbook, a pen and a pair of glasses.Guru312 I am not DB Cooper Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,026 #139 December 11, 2009 Quote ... but that is not a justification for night jumps, as opposed to other more relevant skills, being required for a license to exercise certain privileges to which night jumps have no relevance. *** Unless of course you want to exercise said 'certain privileges'... At Night. You only need a "B" to jump at night. If you want to INSTRUCT at night, I'd suggest 2 prior night jumps in which you broke both femurs would be inadequate preparation even though they'd qualify for the "D" under current rules. I'm not aware that USPA runs nationals events at night. Niggling little details and anyway, your argument is circular.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #140 December 11, 2009 ...and your argument is circular. *** So was my parachute the first couple hundred jumps. ~ Your argument seems to be centered around a fear of things that go THUMP in the night! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,026 #141 December 11, 2009 Quote ...and your argument is circular. *** So was my parachute the first couple hundred jumps. ~ Your argument seems to be centered around a fear of things that go THUMP in the night! Jim, I remind you that I DO have my "D" license and it's not restricted.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #142 December 11, 2009 Quote Quote ...and your argument is circular. *** So was my parachute the first couple hundred jumps. ~ Your argument seems to be centered around a fear of things that go THUMP in the night! Jim, I remind you that I DO have my "D" license and it's not restricted. I know, I didn't mean to suggest you had a fear of being a nocturnal falling object.....only of gettin' HIT by one! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
timmyfitz 0 #143 December 11, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteSince night tandems are not allowed it still makes no sense. Where does it say no night tandems? you are correct, providing the passenger has a B-license. USPA has the following requirements for a night jump: J. Extraordinary skydives 1. Night, water, and demonstration jumps are to be performed only with the advice of the local USPA S&TA, Instructor Examiner, or Regional Director. [NW] The FAA has this to say about night jumps: 1. FAA regulations [FAR 105.19] require that when performing night jumps, each skydiver must display a light that is visible for at least three statute miles from the time the jumper is under an open parachute until landing. [NW] No mention of any required license by either. I ask again, where does it say not night tandems? For that matter where does it say AFF can't be done at night? Sparky Here ya go. BSR. Section 2-1, E, 9 Quote9. All student jumps, including tandems, must be completed between official sunrise and sunset. [NW] Edit to add. From UPT from Vector Tandem manual QuoteWARNING Read this information carefully and understand it completely. Any jump that utilizes the Tandem Vector System is considered a “tandem jump’: Using this system outside the student/ Tan-dem lnstructor training environments considered a violation of federal law (FAA exemp&on No. 4943) Examples of violations: demonstration jumps; stunt jumps; intentional water jumps; night jumps; jumping with any student less than 1 S years of age; any tandem jump that takes place off of a designated drop zone. (These restrictions do not apply to military Tandem applications). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,026 #144 December 11, 2009 Quote Quote Quote ...and your argument is circular. *** So was my parachute the first couple hundred jumps. ~ Your argument seems to be centered around a fear of things that go THUMP in the night! Jim, I remind you that I DO have my "D" license and it's not restricted. I know, I didn't mean to suggest you had a fear of being a nocturnal falling object.....only of gettin' HIT by one! Good point: if your intrepid D-license wannabe hits another person in the air or on the ground and kills or maims them during the completion of his/her night jump requirement, the night jump STILL counts.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,026 #145 December 11, 2009 QuoteQuoteExplain how 2 (just 2, with no defined criterion for success) night jumps are so desperately REQUIRED but CRW, bigway experience, advanced canopy flight, sit, head down, etc., are not. Maybe they should be, and the D-license requirements should be updated (read: modernized) accordingly. I suggest a good place to start would be a thorough analysis of the fatalities database to see how experienced skydivers are actually killing themselves. Even a cursory analysis shows that it's not on sunset loads. The area that calls out for attention is clearly canopy skill.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #146 December 11, 2009 QuoteQuote Does this mean a "D" license or logged and signed-off night jumps should be required for sunset loads? Nope, but it does mean that it's silly to think that one won't ever be jumping in very dim/near dark conditions What???? That silly argument again? You have no control over getting on a jumpship when it might be dumping in those conditions? I think it's silly to think that you WILL put yourself in a situation where you might be jumping in very dim/near dark conditions....we do have the choice of not boarding in those conditions. Nobody says anyone HAS TO board. Those that want to...go! Have fun! Those that don't want to and are smart enough to say nay to the peer pressure can watch from the ground.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,026 #147 December 11, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuote Does this mean a "D" license or logged and signed-off night jumps should be required for sunset loads? Nope, but it does mean that it's silly to think that one won't ever be jumping in very dim/near dark conditions What???? That silly argument again? You have no control over getting on a jumpship when it might be dumping in those conditions? I think it's silly to think that you WILL put yourself in a situation where you might be jumping in very dim/near dark conditions....we do have the choice of not boarding in those conditions. Nobody says anyone HAS TO board. Those that want to...go! Have fun! Those that don't want to and are smart enough to say nay to the peer pressure can watch from the ground. Anyone jumping even 1 minute after sunset without a light that can be seen for 3 miles is making an ILLEGAL jump anyway (14CFR Part 105-19).... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #148 December 11, 2009 We've come a long way from "Jumper Integrity & Logbook Veracity". My thought is to put the water jump back in and throw out the night jump requirement for D license. Hell make water sooner than D. When I step out the door, it's much more likely that I would accidently land in water than accidently step out at night. My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
huge 0 #149 December 11, 2009 Quote Good point: if your intrepid D-license wannabe hits another person in the air or on the ground and kills or maims them during the completion of his/her night jump requirement, the night jump STILL counts. Ignoring the night jumps, is there some kind of a quality criteria for the 500 jumps that are required for the D license? Can you kill and maim other jumpers on, let's say, 250 of those jumps and still qualify for the D license? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 5 #150 December 11, 2009 And with 6500' mountains very close to the DZ, as well as the Great Salt Lake and its supporting ponds, it's equally as likely that an "after sunset" exit and water landing are going to occur. How about adding night water landings as a D requirement? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
