RSL

[mjosparky 4]

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I believe the OP is referring to the Feb issue with the 72 year old male doing a 4 way jump and then deploying his reserve too low after cutting away.

This guy did not have an RSL installed on the rig (according to the report)

Thank you for that........I was not aware of the old guy. Do you what date he went in?

Sparky

I just found it......that was Larry, made many jumps with him.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Hellis 0]

davjohns

Still confused about the stowing of the slider. Why would you stow it before getting control of the brakes / testing the canopy? It makes noise and flaps. Otherwise, it seems to me that it can wait. In the case of this video, it seems worrying about the slider first caused a problem. What are the potential problems if you worry about a good canopy before worrying about the slider?

Try it and you will see why everyone does as in the video.
When the brakes are free you need to pass the brakes through the slider grommets while the canopy flies at a higher speed forward and down.
Also keep in mind that when you try to pass the brakes through the grommets (depending on canopysize) this can make the canopy turn and you might end up on heading for other jumpers.


But there are people who release the brakes first.
Both ways has it own set of drawbacks.

[Deimian 43]

davjohns

Still confused about the stowing of the slider. Why would you stow it before getting control of the brakes / testing the canopy?

Because for pulling it down the risers you have to pull it down the toggles, and this is done, much, much easier and faster if the brakes are still stowed.

If you first release the brakes, and then pull down the slider, you will: 1) fall faster and go forward faster; 2) spend more time with housekeeping stuff; 3) as a consequence of 1 and 2 you'll end up lower with all that stuff done (but it shouldn't be a concern, if it is you shouldn't be stowing the slider).

Before I was collapsing/stowing my slider, loosening my chest strap and lastly release the brakes. After I saw that video last year now I loose my chest strap after my controlability check.

Other people might have different opinion/procedure. I have heard them and understand them. But that is mine.

[Joellercoaster 6]

Once you've unstowed the brakes, it's hard to get the slider down and back behind your head.

Personally I've stopped doing it lately, it's extra fiddling for only a small benefit (after you've collapsed the slider anyway). I did have a chiropractic opening a few weeks ago that rammed the slider down past the stops, but that was the exception

--
"I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan

"You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at?

[chuckakers 425]

ianyapxw

Thanks
I thought I saw him reach for the other brake. Is it he couldn't release it on time?

Yes. Look closely and you will see that the left side slider grommet is interacting with the toggle, keeping the jumper from getting a grasp on it.

It may have been possible for the jumper to use some right brake or riser to control the spin while he worked on releasing the left toggle, but that's easy to say sitting on the ground looking at a video. The truth is once a highly loaded canopy takes off like that, things can get disorienting fast.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[airtwardo 7]

Croc

Nothing at all questionable about disconnecting your RSL for a CRW jump--that is SOP. I've never been on a CRW jump when anyone did not do it. If you have an entanglement and you can break away you want to get away before opening your reserve, otherwise there is the very real danger that your reserve will open into someone else, endangering you and them.

On all other jumps mine is connected.

That and Demo jumps when utilizing extra hardware ~ ~ ~ I want to be 100% stable for plan B when strapped up with flags, brackets, banners, french horns...

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[diablopilot 2]

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As a refresher for me, why do people disconnect their RSL?

Most of the time you can attribute it to one word: Ego.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[DanG 1]

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Most of the time you can attribute it to one word: Ego.

How is that hot little canopy supposed to get you laid with such a conspicuous safety feature attached?

- Dan G

[Boogers 0]

diablopilot

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As a refresher for me, why do people disconnect their RSL?

Most of the time you can attribute it to one word: Ego.

Of course there's no ego on the part of the people who denounce other's gear choices.

[diablopilot 2]

You're right. None. It's not my ass on the line.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[sundevil777 102]

The guy with the big beard that invented the 3-ring system doesn't like "conventional" RSL systems (I think I am not mis-characterizing his position on that, expressed on this website). There are aspects of conventional RSL systems, and even the MARD type RSL systems that bring extra complication, extra failure modes, and less choice in how the system operates. Some people (including me) don't like the tradeoff.

I realize that analysis of incidents doesn't support my decision. If "that guy with the big beard" can hold that opinion, then others should be able to do so, without being told they are stupid, or arrogant/whatever. What is important is that newbies should use their RSL. It should take a lot of jumps, and a few uses of the reserve before people should be making the same decision I've made.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[davjohns 1]

Just read the incident report with the 32yo female. Very different situation.

One thought in my head is the down-sizing issue. If I change something (canopy size, design, etc.) I don't fiddle with other things on that jump. I make a simple jump for the purpose of gaining familiarity with that canopy, or the suit, or whatever.

I once had an opportunity to launch from a new site with my new hang glider. I passed. It was two new things at once. I only do one if I can help it.

Same thing with skydiving. New helmet? That's the new thing. New altimeter? There it is. Different canopy? Solo belly flight with a nice, high opening to play with it.

I know I'm on the conservative side. But I insist this is not a high-risk sport. It is just terribly intolerant of people who do not respect it.

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

[mjosparky 4]

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I know I'm on the conservative side. But I insist this is not a high-risk sport. It is just terribly intolerant of people who do not respect it.

That's how you grow old in this sport.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Joellercoaster 6]

sundevil777

The guy with the big beard that invented the 3-ring system doesn't like "conventional" RSL systems

He still sells them, does he not? He must not dislike them that much.

--
"I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan

"You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at?

[gunpaq 1]

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There are many people who will argue that an RSL can cause problems and even deaths after cutaways. Statics over the past 20 years supports just the opposite. RSLs save lives.

Very productive and thought provoking discussion.

I always discouraged RSL's for our former students that went on to be licensed and bought their own gear. Why continue to jump student gear in advanced experienced jump scenarios where complications may occur from the RSL? I watched a former student a few years into the sport (D licensed) buy the farm as a result of a RSL enduced entanglement after cutaway from a pilot chute in tow. No sir, except for student applications I did not recommend using a RSL especially after that incident.

Yep, a strong opinion rooted in factual experience but that was then. Today this old man has a RSL on his rig and would not jump without it.

Gear knowledge and training for different scenarios was and is the key to survival. A RSL is a safety device that may not work and even malfunction. What we were seeing back then and still today were folks relying on their RSL as if it were a SOS. Complacency kills and we should never forget that every fun jump is an act of survival.

Great thread and posts.

www.geronimoskydiving.com

[chuckakers 425]

davjohns

Just read the incident report with the 32yo female. Very different situation.

One thought in my head is the down-sizing issue. If I change something (canopy size, design, etc.) I don't fiddle with other things on that jump. I make a simple jump for the purpose of gaining familiarity with that canopy, or the suit, or whatever.

I once had an opportunity to launch from a new site with my new hang glider. I passed. It was two new things at once. I only do one if I can help it.

Same thing with skydiving. New helmet? That's the new thing. New altimeter? There it is. Different canopy? Solo belly flight with a nice, high opening to play with it.

I know I'm on the conservative side. But I insist this is not a high-risk sport. It is just terribly intolerant of people who do not respect it.

Couple thoughts.

This IS a high-risk sport. This is a sport in which you can do everything right and die. This is a sport in which outside influences beyond your control - including your friends - can kill you. This is a sport in which we must remain constantly vigilant NOT to die, and sometimes do anyway. If you want to fool the whuffos by minimizing the the risks in conversation that's fine, but don't fool yourself.

On the risk subject, a lot of people want to compare skydiving fatalities to things like driving fatalities and that's not a good comparison. I hear comparisons of deaths per 10,000 miles of driving vs making ONE skydive. That's not a valid comparison. If one is to make a fair comparison it would be a per unit comparison. 5 minutes of risk exposure on a single jump should be compared to same the 5 minutes of risk exposure on the road, for example. One skydive would have to be put up against a single ski run, a single street luge rip, or a single scuba dive. Those would be fair comparisons and skydiving loses big time in each case to almost every other sport on the planet.

I agree with your practice of only taking on a single new change on a jump. The new helmet and altimeter solo jump strategy takes it a bit further than I feel is necessary, but it's important to stay in the comfort zone so if it works for you, charge on. I have always felt it prudent to make a solo with a new canopy, rig, or other major component.

I was on a load years ago when a young lady with 50 jumps went in (no AAD). It was her first day at a new DZ, first time jumping at sunset (ok, dusk), and she was wearing gloves for the first time because it gotten cold outside. She was jumping with 2 people she had never jumped with before and the break-off ended up being a bit lower than planned. She never got a handle out. Had the only new thing been the wearing of gloves, it's possible things would have ended differently.

I have been ribbed a bit before when I opted for a solo jump instead of FS when jumping something new. Folks would say "gee Chuck, you will be fine. You have thousands of jumps." I would remind them that prudence is how I got them.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[gregpso 1]

even better a mard /skyhook

I tend to be a bit different. enjoyed my time in the sport or is it an industry these days ??

[riggerrob 643]

By the time you get to 3 new variables, it is time to ask whether you should stand-down?????????????

[tbrown 26]

If you do a lot of CRW (CF) or have cameras on your helmet, I can see a reasonable excuse not to use a RSL / MARD system.

But anyone else ? Reminds me of the anti seatbelt crowd, who used to say it was "safer" to be ejected from the vehicle.

The only cutaway I had in the last eleven years was with a RSL. I hit line stretch as I was pulling my reserve handle loose from its pocket. I was impressed. Pulled the reserve handle anyway, it was my responsibility to pull it, even if it was an empty pull.

I'm saying this as someone who "back in the day" made over 500 jumps with neither a RSL or AAD. Nowadays I've got them both. Both are BACKUPS, I don't rely on either of them. Damn glad I've got them though - they're a big IMPROVEMENT.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[riggerrob 643]

Cameramens' time would be better spent taping over all the %$#@! snag hazards on their helmets. Stock GoPro mounts are the worse snag hazards!

[chuckakers 425]

riggerrob

Cameramens' time would be better spent taping over all the %$#@! snag hazards on their helmets. Stock GoPro mounts are the worse snag hazards!

Or both.

BTW, a stock Go Pro mount with the plastic base can be easily snapped by hand as the rails that the unit slides into are very easy to break with a sideways motion. Of course a snag would likely cause a mal anyway but it would be worth a try.

There are a couple different commercial mounts available now that make a Go Pro much less snag-worthy.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[Hellis 0]

riggerrob

Stock GoPro mounts are the worse snag hazards!

For now it's one of the worst used in skydiving.
But just wait and you will soon see them poles on not only wingsuitjumps.

And one day maybe the attachment....

[DSE 5]

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BTW, a stock Go Pro mount with the plastic base can be easily snapped by hand

Chuck, I couldn't quickly find the thread in Photo where there are two relevant links, but both show the GoPro mount under stress is not at all easy to break. It was shown (IIRC) that around 60lbs of force was required. Imagine needing that force while snagged, spinning, and under stress.
It was also shown than the tear factor of VRB at the point of contact via a line, was greater than the Hanson archery scale's limit of 100lbs.

This is a relevant video.

I'll second the suggestion for a third-party GoPro snag-resistant mount such as those that Cookie, Chutingstar, and Square 1 sell.

[Turboprop 0]

gregpso

even better a mard /skyhook

Bwhahahahahhaah loser

[chuckakers 425]

DSE

Quote

BTW, a stock Go Pro mount with the plastic base can be easily snapped by hand

Chuck, I couldn't quickly find the thread in Photo where there are two relevant links, but both show the GoPro mount under stress is not at all easy to break. It was shown (IIRC) that around 60lbs of force was required. Imagine needing that force while snagged, spinning, and under stress.
It was also shown than the tear factor of VRB at the point of contact via a line, was greater than the Hanson archery scale's limit of 100lbs.

This is a relevant video.

I'll second the suggestion for a third-party GoPro snag-resistant mount such as those that Cookie, Chutingstar, and Square 1 sell.

I would like to test this real-world and my guess is you would too.

I agree that under duress things can be radically different but that is an aside in context. Plastic Go Pro mounts are less than a dime a dozen. Let's see what happens if we actually try it.

BTW, 60 pounds isn't all that much force when being applied under the circumstances we can imagine in a snag situation. I'm pretty sure I could muster up 60 pounds without a problem to save my ass.

Let's try it.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX