DZ loyalty

[skybytch 273]

I learned to jump at a Cessna dz. Like most all new jumpers, I trusted the people I was jumping with and the aircraft we were jumping from. "Our" dz was like a family. We were all very loyal to the place and the people.

It didn't seem bad or scary that the Cessna got hand propped on occasion. "Nobody" wore seat belts before the Perris Otter crash so it wasn't strange that they were tucked under the pad. And the "cool" people jumped without helmets, altimeters or shoes.

A year or so after my first jump, a fellow jumper complained to USPA about what he saw as safety issues at that dz. He was instantly ostracized. Like most safety related issues that are reported to USPA, nothing came of it and nothing changed at the dz.

Shortly thereafter, a jumper who had 500 jumps and 1 year in sport was "blessed" by the (not a rated tandem examiner) dzo as a Vector tandem master (the dzo "made" him get the S/L I first). Another 8 months passed with him working as an unrated TM and then he managed to get the rating (assume he lied about time in sport). Another year passed and then he and a friend rated on a different system decided to swap rigs. The friend did fine, the guy I'm talking about took his passenger in (he survived, she didn't). This incident happened away from the dz I'm talking about, but it illustrates the lack of safety culture this dz had.

Three years after my first jump the DZO went to Florida and got rated as a Vector examiner (note that this was after the incident above). Two weeks later he went in with a tandem. There were multiple issues with the gear, but it came down to him not pulling handles. The dz had a new owner two weeks after that.

You'd think that loyalty would fly out the window when obvious safety issues are exposed at your home dz. But no. Most of us were sure that the guy from RWS who investigated was just out to get Al and cover RWS' ass - which kinda made sense considering the money they lost in the lawsuit after the rig swap incident.

It took a few more years in sport and jumping at a few more dz's for me to realize just how unsafe things were at that dz. We were lucky that Al and the tandem were the first fatalities at that dz.

My point? It's good to be loyal to "your" dz and dzo, but don't let that loyalty blind you if /when safety issues are exposed there. Having defended the undefensible in the past, I can tell you that doing so just makes you look stupid.

[virgin-burner 1]

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He was instantly ostracized

and if you dont complain, and something does happen, well, you're just part of the sheeps..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[aphid 0]

Grow balls. Make a stand. Pay the price.

Been there - done that. Not a pleasant experience.

But I still recommend it to anybody with a conscience and would repeat it myself in a heartbeat.

John

[virgin-burner 1]

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Grow balls. Make a stand. Pay the price.

Been there - done that. Not a pleasant experience.

But I still recommend it to anybody with a conscience and would repeat it myself in a heartbeat.

John

funny you say that, isnt it the dorkzone skygods (not saying you were) that usually shut us "experience-challenged" n00bs up!?

i go there to jump and meet some people i like; i've given up on playing politics..

i've also given up on taking all the shit that's thrown in my "general direction", so, my conscience is pretty clean, and if i have an issue, i'm taking my business somewhere else. doesnt mean it's not my favorite place anymore, but yea..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[aphid 0]

Speaking only for myself, my approach was to assist the juniors, not criticize. I took my operational safety-related issues and advice privately to the DZO or the offending instructor or pilot. The same method I recommend to others.

Won't prevent having to pay the price if you run up against an ego that cannot abide what they perceive as less than blind-loyalty to their leadership.

[virgin-burner 1]

i wouldnt even dare to say openly what i have an issue with; probably, because i'm part of the problem too, since i keep on jumping there..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[skydiver604 0]

when I worked as a Health and Safety Officer in a manufacturing plant we had a saying.

"silence is consent"

"The greater danger for most of us is not that our aim is too high and we miss it, but that it is too low and we reach it." - Michelangelo

[skybytch 273]

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when I worked as a Health and Safety Officer in a manufacturing plant we had a saying.

"silence is consent"

If a jumper has been to a few different dz's and knows that "industry standards" (which many consider the BSR's and FAR's to be) are not being followed at one, then yes, silence is consent. I don't know if that can apply to someone who has only jumped at one dz; without having seen how things are done elsewhere, they may not even know what the industry standards are.

Pointing these things out has long been considered very bad form in skydiving. Partly because we're outlaws who don't need no stinking rules, partly because we don't want to be the one that brings the lawyers down. And partly because we want to be able to keep jumping with our friends - this isn't possible if those friends won't jump with us or if there isn't a dz nearby to jump at. It's also not possible if they're all dead, but in many jumper's minds that's far less likely to happen.

Until it does.

[riggerrob 643]

Agreed!
I try to lead by example and assist around junior jumpers.

But I quit trying to advise tandem instructors after a couple of those scoff-laws offered to "knock me out!"

[airtwardo 7]

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when I worked as a Health and Safety Officer in a manufacturing plant we had a saying.

"silence is consent"

If a jumper has been to a few different dz's and knows that "industry standards" (which many consider the BSR's and FAR's to be) are not being followed at one, then yes, silence is consent. I don't know if that can apply to someone who has only jumped at one dz; without having seen how things are done elsewhere, they may not even know what the industry standards are.

Pointing these things out has long been considered very bad form in skydiving. Partly because we're outlaws who don't need no stinking rules, partly because we don't want to be the one that brings the lawyers down. And partly because we want to be able to keep jumping with our friends - this isn't possible if those friends won't jump with us or if there isn't a dz nearby to jump at. It's also not possible if they're all dead, but in many jumper's minds that's far less likely to happen.

Until it does.

Quick story~

Back in the early 80's I was hired on at a mid-size DZ as a S/L I, fair number of students, open all week.

Couple days into it I realize why they were so eager to get me...I was the only one on staff with an "I" rating.

Should have told me something, but I needed work...after 8-10 days the DZO asks what I think of the place.

...thinking he actually wants feedback from the only "I", proceeded to give him a laundry list of safety concerns. The most obvious being over water exits & students without water gear, the 2nd being inconsistency regarding training and the types of student gear.

Long story short~ I got tossed, that day...HELL that minute.

5 days later- local news person killed making a televised jump, obvious reason being one of my main concerns and the reason I no longer worked there.

It was a dangerous place...I knew it, didn't do anything...somebody is dead.

I'll never make THAT mistake again.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[jumpwally 0]

Is it still in operation today ?

smile, be nice, enjoy life
FB # - 1083

[Rover 11]

You can become very good at doing something badly if you do it for long enough....

2 wrongs don't make a right - but 3 lefts do.

[airtwardo 7]

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Is it still in operation today ?

The 'location' is still a dropzone... now a very nice facility with all the amenities.

That particular DZO I'm referring to has long since disappeared into the sunset, having sold the place within a year of the incident I'm recalling.

That whole experience changed me in part as to the way I view my 'personal' responsibilities both 'within & to' the sport.

I really WAS an old school crazy ass jumper that did the 'outlaw' thing for a long time.

As with any fun-seeking group associated with the 'outlaw' status, rule number one was STFU!

We regularly broke rules and laws...local, state & federal.

Nobody got hurt, we were having fun...the regulations don't apply because we're 'special' and they don't understand.

If & when there was back-lash, everyone circled the wagons and the defensive shields were engaged because it's 'us against them'...

After I got fired for saying "Someone is going to die here, if not today then someday...& soon." ~ ~ I just walked...well 'That's Skydiving' was what I told myself.

I certainly wasn't going to raise a big stink about my concerns to any 'outside' authorities because I was a jumper, and that might hurt the sport.

The incident, especially happening so close in time to my 'warning' to the DZO, sparked an epiphany within.

My ACTUAL responsibility to the sport...Especially as an instructor, was to insure those just coming into it, have every possible chance to survive.

I didn't see the 'Big Picture'

Was I directly responsible for this persons death...no, I don't believe so.

I was no doubt indirectly at fault for not at least raising a red flag...whether it would have made a difference or not is debatable.

What's NOT up for debate is the hard fact that there was a horrible consequence to my turning a blind eye because of my misunderstood and misaligned allegiance.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[diablopilot 2]

What he said. Times 1000.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Ironmanjay 0]

So Im kinda of curious of your opinion skybytch, If I know of some unsafe, unlawful things going on at a DZ i jump at. Is it my responsibility as a skydiver to report these things to the higher authorities??.... Or should I just turn my back on that DZ and hope for the best...

[DSE 5]

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I was no doubt indirectly at fault for not at least raising a red flag...whether it would have made a difference or not is debatable.

What's NOT up for debate is the hard fact that there was a horrible consequence to my turning a blind eye because of my misunderstood and misaligned allegiance.

And for some, that's the part that can make it difficult to sleep at night. The "if I'd only said..."

[zipplewrath 1]

I'm curious. Are you suggesting that people don't die at "good" DZ's or that they just die "differently"?

[JohnDeere 0]

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I'm curious. Are you suggesting that people don't die at "good" DZ's or that they just die "differently"?

Really? Troll on down the road!

Nothing opens like a Deere!

You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers!

[zipplewrath 1]

It was a relaitively serious question. In my 20+ years I've gone through a few realizations and one of them ultimately was that there are few guarantees in skydiving. For all the hoopla about supposedly "outlaw" or "unsafe" DZ's, I never particularly saw anything at the "safe" ones that I didn't see at the supposedly "dangerous" ones. Mostly it was a case of whether is was acknowledged or not.

But in the end, some of the "safest" skydivers I knew died some of the most horrible deaths.

Skydiving fatalities are a fairly rare event. It is hard to correlate them to any particular set of rules or features of a particular DZ. One of the most "Outlaw" DZ's I spent time at actually was pretty "safe". The outlaws knew what they were doing and as we loaded more than one of them in the ambulance, they'd often admit that they were aware this day was coming. Alternately, they made excellent "morality lessons" for the students about why the "rules" exist.

I don't mind folks, or DZ's that want to take elevated risks. I just feel the need to ensure they understand that they are.

[skybytch 273]

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For all the hoopla about supposedly "outlaw" or "unsafe" DZ's, I never particularly saw anything at the "safe" ones that I didn't see at the supposedly "dangerous" ones.

True. Although the dz I learned at did have safety issues, we also slavishly followed the cloud clearance BSR's. The first time I punched a cloud was not there, but instead at a large, "safe" dz - six years after my first jump.

So yeah, there really is no such thing as a "safe" or "unsafe" dz. Only safe and unsafe practices at individual dz's.

If we want to be taken seriously as a recreational sport, and if (in the US) we want to remain self-policing, we really should all strive to follow the "industry standards" that the FAA and the skydiving community itself have developed over the years.

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I don't mind folks, or DZ's that want to take elevated risks. I just feel the need to ensure they understand that they are.

And that's one of the points of the this thread. If I know that "something" is increasing the risk for me on every skydive I do there, it's up to me whether to keep jumping there or move on. But if I don't know enough yet to know that the risks may be a bit greater at one dz over another, then I'm not really able to make an informed decision on whether or not to accept those risks (ie skydive there). My hope is that perhaps some people will see themselves in my story and perhaps begin to understand the extra risks they are taking. It's up to them if they choose to take them or not - but they sure do look silly trying to defend those risks if they don't even know they exist.

Although I think that ethically we all do have some responsibility to do so, it's not likely that I will ever be a "whistle blower" when I see what I think is a safety issue at a dz other than the one I mostly jump at (where I jump such things are usually handled quickly and well). I'll simply choose not to jump there, and depending on the issue I may or may not pass my first hand information/impressions along to my friends so they can perhaps make a more informed decision about whether they want to jump there or not.

Now if I thought that being a whistle blower would actually create change...

[zipplewrath 1]

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If we want to be taken seriously as a recreational sport, and if (in the US) we want to remain self-policing, we really should all strive to follow the "industry standards" that the FAA and the skydiving community itself have developed over the years.

I'm not particularly interested in being "taken" seriously (or otherwise) and I'd dispute that any of this discussion has anything to do with remaining self-policing. (not as long as there are ultralights). However, I'd agree with the statement; "We should all strive to UNDERSTAND the industry standards and why and where they came from". Standards make a presumption about the level of safety I want to achieve and that's going to be different for all of us, as is aptly demonstrated by our base brotheren. None the less one can't know their level of risk if they don't know why it's risky.

It's up to them if they choose to take them or not - but they sure do look silly trying to defend those risks if they don't even know they exist.

And equally silly not knowing why it's risky yet trying to "enforce" them anyway.

I made a tight landing into an area of a DZ that was officially off limits "due to safety". Small place with more rules than they could enforce. After accomplishing it, I got an ear full from some self appointed cop. I calmly asked what was dangerous about it. The of the list of 5 things mentioned, none of them applied that day. I knew all of them and more. I had "shot" approaches at this spot probably 20 times in different conditions and taken the bailout everytime. There were alot of hazards depending upon winds and just the number of other jumpers around (they could easily "pinch" you between the landing area and some power lines).
But the winds were right, the sky was clear of jumpers, and I passed into the point of no return dead on target. The risk was no greater than any other nominal landing I'd done. I learned alot, I built skills by trying this, and if I ever NEEDED to do it, I would know the approach well. And after the cop left, I spent 20 minutes discussing the landing with some 200 jump wonder explaining everything I knew.

I learned as much from the rule breakers as from the instructors.

[airtwardo 7]

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I'm curious. Are you suggesting that people don't die at "good" DZ's or that they just die "differently"?

Didn't make ANY suggestions.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~