Orange1 0 #1 May 27, 2005 After having read a number of posts in the incidents forum about fatalities resulting from people losing altitude awareness while trying to resolve malfunctions, it seems like a good idea to me to get an audible alti. I know there is a train of thought that newbies should not get audibles because of the "device dependence" issue, but my thinking was this: 1. While I kind of have a feeling for what looks "low", I'm still at the stage where I need to use my alti to check - I don't yet have a solid ability to eyeball altitude. In other words, I would still probably follow the principle of pulling immediately if something goes wrong with my wristmount and I become unsure of what my altitude is... however, I am now often on loads where tandems follow me out and I am worried that in this kind of situation pulling high and surprising the tandem could lead to an incident. 2. So, a back-up in case something does go wrong with my wristmount alti seems like a good idea, as does the idea of something shrieking in my ear if I do happen to lose awareness while trying to deal with an issue. 3. CI at my DZ perfectly happy with me getting an audible. (Yes, I asked my instructor.) Was just wondering if anyone has any comments on this line of thinking, or any potential problems that might arise? Are there any reasons I shouldn't use an audible? And if my line of reasoning is as logical as it seems to me wrt the altitude awareness issue, why doesn't everyone have one?Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Praetorian 1 #2 May 27, 2005 First get better at telling your altitude by REALLY looking at the ground, you should be able to guess when your getting close to pull time. Second do what I did with your audible set them for just after breakoff, just after pulltime and hard deck. That way you get a beep AS you are tracking off and a beep while you chute is opening (learn to do and get confirmed NOT learn to do as the beeps tell you to do) ... but what do I know I'm just a 100 jump wonder Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #3 May 27, 2005 I don't see any reason not to have an audible altimeter. Set it to beep below where you should be breaking off, deploying, etc. If you plan on breaking off at 4,500 ft, set it for 4,000 feet. That way you are not relying on it and you'll only need it if you screw up. What you don't want is to be like Pavlov's dogs, breaking off, pulling, EP's based on an audible. Use it as a wake up call if it beeps and you haven't broken off yet, etc. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MarkM 0 #4 May 27, 2005 The tandems shouldn't be jumping out on top of you, so pulling if something goes wrong with your alti shouldn't be an issue. I didn't get an audible off of student status because I didn't want to become dependent on it. They can fail and when they fail you may not know it. My vis altimeter has failed twice, but it's really easy to tell when it fails. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
funks 1 #5 May 27, 2005 QuoteThe tandems shouldn't be jumping out on top of you, so pulling if something goes wrong with your alti shouldn't be an issue. My advice for what its worth, IGNORE this advice. Yes there is a degree of separation on exit but nobody here knows the original posters flying capabilities. How do we not know if he backslides across the sky? He could be all over the sky for various reasons. Pulling at a higher than planned altitude can ALWAYS present a problem if there are people exiting after you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #6 May 27, 2005 QuoteMy advice for what its worth, IGNORE this advice. What if they had a premature deployment? Just another reason to BE DILIGENT about horizontal seperation. Assuming someone won't be above you is as foolish as someone not giving adequate seperation. Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
funks 1 #7 May 27, 2005 QuoteQuote ***What if they had a premature deployment? Not much someone can do about this. I was referring to purposely opening at a higher than planned altitude, not an accidental opening QuoteAssuming someone won't be above you is as foolish as someone not giving adequate seperation. That was my point exactly. The poster i was responding too seemed to think that separation cures all when it comes to people being above or below you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MarkM 0 #8 May 27, 2005 QuoteQuoteThe tandems shouldn't be jumping out on top of you, so pulling if something goes wrong with your alti shouldn't be an issue. My advice for what its worth, IGNORE this advice. Yes there is a degree of separation on exit but nobody here knows the original posters flying capabilities. How do we not know if he backslides across the sky? He could be all over the sky for various reasons. Pulling at a higher than planned altitude can ALWAYS present a problem if there are people exiting after you. Dude, he's talking about if his altimeter friggen breaks. You jump out of the plane, you're alti-giga-tude-2000 explodes upon contact with the airstream. Your options are: A> Pull high in this circumstance, because you're a 30 jump wonder and don't know what 4k looks like. B> Hold it in until the ground looks really really big, because you might be sliding a little. Orange, talk to your instructors at your DZ and see which they'd prefer you to do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites funks 1 #9 May 27, 2005 QuoteQuoteQuote Dude, he's talking about if his altimeter friggen breaks. You jump out of the plane, you're alti-giga-tude-2000 explodes upon contact with the airstream. Your options are: A> Pull high in this circumstance, because you're a 30 jump wonder and don't know what 4k looks like. B> Hold it in until the ground looks really really big, because you might be sliding a little. Orange, talk to your instructors at your DZ and see which they'd prefer you to do. Dude....Yes, I know what he is talking about. My response was to your comment about pulling high not being an issue. Pulling high is an issue. At the very least if there are no other options I would suggest flipping over to check the airspace above you and / or tracking in either direction perpendicular to the flight line. If you are high enough, you should have time to do either or and still pull at a safe altitude. However, at the end of the day it is best to check with your instructors and follow their advice and not the advice you are gonna receive from anybody on this board, me included Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyyhi 0 #10 May 27, 2005 I still do not have an audible alti. I have borrowed and used on occasion but most of the time prefer to jump without. I have gotten VERY good at knowing when I need to break off, track and pull just by looking at the ground. . .when I verify with my alti, I am right on. That being said, if I was jumping serious 4-way or freeflying, I believe I would want an audible. It is too easy to get caught up in what you are doing and forget to check. . .jmho. . .________________________________________ Take risks not to escape life… but to prevent life from escaping. ~ A bumper sticker at the DZ FGF #6 Darcy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MarkM 0 #11 May 27, 2005 Quote Dude....Yes, I know what he is talking about. My response was to your comment about pulling high not being an issue. Pulling high is an issue. My comment was that pulling high in an emergency situation shouldn't be an issue because of horizontal separation. Quote At the very least if there are no other options I would suggest flipping over to check the airspace above you and / or tracking in either direction perpendicular to the flight line. If you are high enough, you should have time to do either or and still pull at a safe altitude. Why complicate the situation for a low jumper who probably won't be able to remember what the flight line was, probably can't back fly worth anything and probably doesn't have the awareness to see other jumpers in freefall that he's not right next too? Your altimeter not working and you have no other reliable means of telling altitude? End the skydive. You look down and your reserve handle is flapping around and working itself free? End the skydive. You look to the side and your main risers have worked themselves free and are flapping around wildly? End the skydive. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Orange1 0 #12 May 27, 2005 Quote Why complicate the situation for a low jumper who probably won't be able to remember what the flight line was, probably can't back fly worth anything and probably doesn't have the awareness to see other jumpers in freefall that he's not right next too? Your altimeter not working and you have no other reliable means of telling altitude? End the skydive. Um, I didn't mean to start an argument here. For clarity: I am a "less-than-30 jump wonder" who is aware of the flightline (our geographical cross-references make it easy) but you are right I am not wholly aware of other jumpers in the air on solo freefalls. To touch on another poster's points, I DO have a tendency to backslide (I'm working on it!!). The tandems were mentioned because on a recent load the TM asked me what height I pull at, and specifically said to me "don't pull higher because we may be right behind you". (I didn't think to ask about separation, but there were relatively strong winds that day - maybe a factor? or maybe he knew I backslide...or maybe he was just being ultra-cautious given my low jump #s) Whether or not I would THINK about tracking, flipping etc at this stage if something goes wrong... I don't know. (I went through SL first so my freefall abilities vs jump #s may be overestimated by those who are used to AFF grads with the same # of jumps.) I'm just trying to think all possibilities through and be prepared for what may happen. Thanks posters for the comments and PMs, what I wanted was issues to be aware of, and that's what I got. Oh, and the "he" is a she.Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites funks 1 #13 May 27, 2005 QuoteQuote QuoteWhy complicate the situation for a low jumper Sorry, I dont consider this complicating the situation. I consider it being a safe and aware skydiver. QuoteYour altimeter not working and you have no other reliable means of telling altitude? End the skydive. Disagree. Depending on altitude, I dont think altimeter failure is reason enough to jeopardize other jumpers exiting behind you. QuoteYou look down and your reserve handle is flapping around and working itself free? End the skydive. Off topic, but yes I agree QuoteYou look to the side and your main risers have worked themselves free and are flapping around wildly? End the skydive. Off topic once again, but yes I agree And to the original poster who commented on starting an argument. Dont think of it that way..this is all just constructive (or deconstructive depending on who you ask) opinions flying back and forth. But once again, just please remember to check with your instructor. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Scrumpot 1 #14 May 27, 2005 QuoteMy comment was that pulling high in an emergency situation... Pssst.... Bottom line, I've got news for you... An altimeter breaking, not working, never working, "Disintegrating upon entry into the windstream" -WHATEVER IS NOT A FRIGGIN EMERGENCY SITUATION! DOH! Even for a "30-jump wonder". No one ever said (legitimately) that you have to hold out until the ground looks really, REALLY "BIG"! If, ...and yes even by just 30 lousy jumps, you can't tell the difference between dumping mega-high (like 8, 9, or 10-grand) versus being REASONABLY safer between that and impact, then you probably should rethink about even jumping out of that plane in the 1st place AT ALL. C'mon dude... be real here. Blues, -Grantcoitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MarkM 0 #15 May 27, 2005 Quote Um, I didn't mean to start an argument here. Nah, it's all good. Trust me, if it was really an argument a greenie would be in here and lock the thread fairly quickly. We're just picking over details on an internet forum. Probably the best thing to do with DZ.com is to chew over the posts, think about the different opinions and how they apply to situations you're in, then ask and talk about the stuff with your local instructors. Quote I'm just trying to think all possibilities through and be prepared for what may happen. Thanks posters for the comments and PMs, what I wanted was issues to be aware of, and that's what I got. There you see? That was our plan all along. You just asked about audibles and we've brought up all sorts of questions about seperation, exit order and pull altitudes you can bring up with your instructors. Are we good or what? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Frenchy68 0 #16 May 27, 2005 QuoteI'm just trying to think all possibilities through and be prepared for what may happen IMO, practicing to tell rough altitude using your own eyes is an essential survival skill. The altitude at which the plane took off can be different than the altitude of the ground below you in freefall... "For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites HydroGuy 0 #17 May 27, 2005 QuoteQuoteMy comment was that pulling high in an emergency situation... Pssst.... Bottom line, I've got news for you... An altimeter breaking, not working, never working, "Disintegrating upon entry into the windstream" -WHATEVER IS NOT A FRIGGIN EMERGENCY SITUATION! DOH! Even for a "30-jump wonder". No one ever said (legitimately) that you have to hold out until the ground looks really, REALLY "BIG"! If, ...and yes even by just 30 lousy jumps, you can't tell the difference between dumping mega-high (like 8, 9, or 10-grand) versus being REASONABLY safer between that and impact, then you probably should rethink about even jumping out of that plane in the 1st place AT ALL. C'mon dude... be real here. Blues, -Grant If he is new - and doesn't have your 10,000 jump God-like awareness of the ground - a broken altimeter IS an emergency situation. Especially if he needs tp perform EP's.Get in - Get off - Get away....repeat as neccessary Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,006 #18 May 27, 2005 >If he is new - and doesn't have your 10,000 jump God-like awareness > of the ground . . . From most accounts God floats around somewhere and doesn't generally impact anything at terminal. You need about 20 jumps to have a mortal awareness of the ground. If a jumper does not have that, then they should be diligent about getting the training they need to get that awareness. >a broken altimeter IS an emergency situation. Especially if he needs tp perform EP's. I've cut away unintentionally five times, and I've never looked at my altimeter. I've had perhaps ten of my students cut away, and afterwards, they recount that they didn't look at their altimeters either. It's generally pretty straightforward - if you open the main and it malfunctions, cut it away. If it will land you safely, don't cut it away. Nothing about an altimeter in there. You don't need an altimeter to perform emergency procedures, and you shouldn't need one to open at a safe altitude. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MarkM 0 #19 May 27, 2005 QuoteYou need about 20 jumps to have a mortal awareness of the ground. If a jumper does not have that, then they should be diligent about getting the training they need to get that awareness. I'm pretty sure you used to be a S&TA. This kid walks up to you, has 30 jumps, asks what he should do if his alti stops working after leaving the plane. Is worried about the tandem coming out behind him. What do you tell him: pull when his mortal danger sense goes off, pull when he thinks he's at about his normal pull altitude, or pull higher than that and just fly the canopy down? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,006 #20 May 27, 2005 >What do you tell him: pull when his mortal danger sense goes off, pull > when he thinks he's at about his normal pull altitude, or pull higher than > that and just fly the canopy down? 1. If he's with someone, break off with them, track for the normal amount of time, then pull. 2. If he's solo, pull at his expected altitude. If he can't judge altitude very accurately, pull higher - and in the meantime learn to judge altitude. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Scrumpot 1 #21 May 27, 2005 Quote2. If he's solo, pull at his expected altitude. If he can't judge altitude very accurately, pull higher - and in the meantime learn to judge altitude. Can I clarify "pull higher"? ...Sure, maybe something you may feel is a little higher (if need be to make you feel more "comfortable"), but let's say your alti busts RIGHT OUT THE DOOR, then certainly not right then ...in ANY case. Would you concur? I am not a TM (nor do I want to be ), but the one thing I sure do know is that I most certainly wouldn't want to be dealing with any random (and especially low-time) do-do head flying about underneath me under OPEN CANOPY as I'm screaming towards him in (less than optimally manueverable) drogue-fall! MarkM, I hate to sound like a hard-ass about this, but seriously, ...30-jump wonder exits, gets stable, does his "COA" (remember those? ) ...Notices "OH SHIT" my altimiter's BUSTED (or heck ...flew-off)- - - "end the skydive" (ie: dump right then & there) is WRONG and most certainly CAN be an issue. Not only just for TM's but ANYBODY who may have been in either a group, solo, or otherwise have been following this jumper out! This would only (and UNNECESSARILY IMHO) INCREASE his/her potential for peril/incident. And then not only THEIRS, but OTHERS (as noted potentially behind them) as well. -Grantcoitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,006 #22 May 27, 2005 > but let's say your alti busts RIGHT OUT THE DOOR, then certainly not right then .. Yeah, even someone at the ten-jump mark is going to know the difference between 10,000 feet and 5000 feet. By all means, pull before you feel you are low - but try not to pull at 10,000 feet. During AFF we tell people up to level 3 that they have to pull right away if there are any problems. Starting with level 4, we tell them that it's safer to continue the dive (provided they are aware, stable and comfortable) than to dump really high, partly because it's not that safe to have people open at random altitudes. But as always, getting an open parachute before impact takes the highest priority. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MarkM 0 #23 May 27, 2005 Quote MarkM, I hate to sound like a hard-ass about this, but seriously, No problem, I like the discussion on this stuff because often I may not know what I think I know Quote ...30-jump wonder exits, gets stable, does his "COA" (remember those? ) ...Notices "OH SHIT" my altimiter's BUSTED (or heck ...flew-off)- - - "end the skydive" (ie: dump right then & there) is WRONG and most certainly CAN be an issue. Not only just for TM's but ANYBODY who may have been in either a group, solo, or otherwise have been following this jumper out! This would only (and UNNECESSARILY IMHO) INCREASE his/her potential for peril/incident. And then not only THEIRS, but OTHERS (as noted potentially behind them) as well. I'm curious what the added danger is though. Let's say he's pulling at 4k normal and ends up pulling at 5-7k because it looks about right(erring a bit on the high side). If the tandem coming out after him is pulling at 5-6k, how is it any more dangerous for him to pull at say 9 or 10k? If he's sliding out of his column of airspace towards the tandem's airspace, going down to 6k from 9k isn't going to make that any less of an issue. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 4 #24 May 28, 2005 QuoteFirst get better at telling your altitude by REALLY looking at the ground, you should be able to guess when your getting close to pull time. Second do what I did with your audible set them for just after breakoff, just after pulltime and hard deck. That way you get a beep AS you are tracking off and a beep while you chute is opening (learn to do and get confirmed NOT learn to do as the beeps tell you to do) ... but what do I know I'm just a 100 jump wonder I think that this good advise no matter if it comes from a "100 jump wonder" or someone with a few thousand jumps. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DanG 1 #25 May 28, 2005 I'm going to go out on a limb and disagree with the illustrious billvon. I've only cut away twice, and on one of those occasions I did look at my altimeter. It was a line-twist malfunction that I tried to clear for some time. Having the altimeter available let me know how much time I had to work with the problem. I ended up cutting away, but if I had been able to work out the problem before my hard deck, it would have been prefereable than going to my last chance. It would have also been preferable to a repack and new freebag. In response to the inevitable "you should have looked at the ground and been able to tell how high you were" I say that it is easier said than done when turning and over a densely forested area south of the usual opening area. Also, we do, in the FJC, tell students about their hard deck and that there are certain malfunctions they can attempt to clear, if above their hard deck. Having an altimeter in the case of a line twist, severe end-cell closure, or slider-up malfunction can be the difference between landing a main and landing a reserve. So, in short, I would tell Orange1 to, first, consult with her instructors, but that if she loses altitude awareness (which is what has happened if she has no altimeter and can't visually determine how high she is) she should end the skydive and pull. If this happens right out the door? Sucking it down is an option, but if she is concerned with backsliding into someone elses airspace, pulling higher is better than pulling lower. If you do not have horizontal separation right out the door, then you will certainly not have it at 5,000 feet. - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
MarkM 0 #8 May 27, 2005 QuoteQuoteThe tandems shouldn't be jumping out on top of you, so pulling if something goes wrong with your alti shouldn't be an issue. My advice for what its worth, IGNORE this advice. Yes there is a degree of separation on exit but nobody here knows the original posters flying capabilities. How do we not know if he backslides across the sky? He could be all over the sky for various reasons. Pulling at a higher than planned altitude can ALWAYS present a problem if there are people exiting after you. Dude, he's talking about if his altimeter friggen breaks. You jump out of the plane, you're alti-giga-tude-2000 explodes upon contact with the airstream. Your options are: A> Pull high in this circumstance, because you're a 30 jump wonder and don't know what 4k looks like. B> Hold it in until the ground looks really really big, because you might be sliding a little. Orange, talk to your instructors at your DZ and see which they'd prefer you to do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
funks 1 #9 May 27, 2005 QuoteQuoteQuote Dude, he's talking about if his altimeter friggen breaks. You jump out of the plane, you're alti-giga-tude-2000 explodes upon contact with the airstream. Your options are: A> Pull high in this circumstance, because you're a 30 jump wonder and don't know what 4k looks like. B> Hold it in until the ground looks really really big, because you might be sliding a little. Orange, talk to your instructors at your DZ and see which they'd prefer you to do. Dude....Yes, I know what he is talking about. My response was to your comment about pulling high not being an issue. Pulling high is an issue. At the very least if there are no other options I would suggest flipping over to check the airspace above you and / or tracking in either direction perpendicular to the flight line. If you are high enough, you should have time to do either or and still pull at a safe altitude. However, at the end of the day it is best to check with your instructors and follow their advice and not the advice you are gonna receive from anybody on this board, me included Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyyhi 0 #10 May 27, 2005 I still do not have an audible alti. I have borrowed and used on occasion but most of the time prefer to jump without. I have gotten VERY good at knowing when I need to break off, track and pull just by looking at the ground. . .when I verify with my alti, I am right on. That being said, if I was jumping serious 4-way or freeflying, I believe I would want an audible. It is too easy to get caught up in what you are doing and forget to check. . .jmho. . .________________________________________ Take risks not to escape life… but to prevent life from escaping. ~ A bumper sticker at the DZ FGF #6 Darcy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MarkM 0 #11 May 27, 2005 Quote Dude....Yes, I know what he is talking about. My response was to your comment about pulling high not being an issue. Pulling high is an issue. My comment was that pulling high in an emergency situation shouldn't be an issue because of horizontal separation. Quote At the very least if there are no other options I would suggest flipping over to check the airspace above you and / or tracking in either direction perpendicular to the flight line. If you are high enough, you should have time to do either or and still pull at a safe altitude. Why complicate the situation for a low jumper who probably won't be able to remember what the flight line was, probably can't back fly worth anything and probably doesn't have the awareness to see other jumpers in freefall that he's not right next too? Your altimeter not working and you have no other reliable means of telling altitude? End the skydive. You look down and your reserve handle is flapping around and working itself free? End the skydive. You look to the side and your main risers have worked themselves free and are flapping around wildly? End the skydive. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Orange1 0 #12 May 27, 2005 Quote Why complicate the situation for a low jumper who probably won't be able to remember what the flight line was, probably can't back fly worth anything and probably doesn't have the awareness to see other jumpers in freefall that he's not right next too? Your altimeter not working and you have no other reliable means of telling altitude? End the skydive. Um, I didn't mean to start an argument here. For clarity: I am a "less-than-30 jump wonder" who is aware of the flightline (our geographical cross-references make it easy) but you are right I am not wholly aware of other jumpers in the air on solo freefalls. To touch on another poster's points, I DO have a tendency to backslide (I'm working on it!!). The tandems were mentioned because on a recent load the TM asked me what height I pull at, and specifically said to me "don't pull higher because we may be right behind you". (I didn't think to ask about separation, but there were relatively strong winds that day - maybe a factor? or maybe he knew I backslide...or maybe he was just being ultra-cautious given my low jump #s) Whether or not I would THINK about tracking, flipping etc at this stage if something goes wrong... I don't know. (I went through SL first so my freefall abilities vs jump #s may be overestimated by those who are used to AFF grads with the same # of jumps.) I'm just trying to think all possibilities through and be prepared for what may happen. Thanks posters for the comments and PMs, what I wanted was issues to be aware of, and that's what I got. Oh, and the "he" is a she.Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites funks 1 #13 May 27, 2005 QuoteQuote QuoteWhy complicate the situation for a low jumper Sorry, I dont consider this complicating the situation. I consider it being a safe and aware skydiver. QuoteYour altimeter not working and you have no other reliable means of telling altitude? End the skydive. Disagree. Depending on altitude, I dont think altimeter failure is reason enough to jeopardize other jumpers exiting behind you. QuoteYou look down and your reserve handle is flapping around and working itself free? End the skydive. Off topic, but yes I agree QuoteYou look to the side and your main risers have worked themselves free and are flapping around wildly? End the skydive. Off topic once again, but yes I agree And to the original poster who commented on starting an argument. Dont think of it that way..this is all just constructive (or deconstructive depending on who you ask) opinions flying back and forth. But once again, just please remember to check with your instructor. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Scrumpot 1 #14 May 27, 2005 QuoteMy comment was that pulling high in an emergency situation... Pssst.... Bottom line, I've got news for you... An altimeter breaking, not working, never working, "Disintegrating upon entry into the windstream" -WHATEVER IS NOT A FRIGGIN EMERGENCY SITUATION! DOH! Even for a "30-jump wonder". No one ever said (legitimately) that you have to hold out until the ground looks really, REALLY "BIG"! If, ...and yes even by just 30 lousy jumps, you can't tell the difference between dumping mega-high (like 8, 9, or 10-grand) versus being REASONABLY safer between that and impact, then you probably should rethink about even jumping out of that plane in the 1st place AT ALL. C'mon dude... be real here. Blues, -Grantcoitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MarkM 0 #15 May 27, 2005 Quote Um, I didn't mean to start an argument here. Nah, it's all good. Trust me, if it was really an argument a greenie would be in here and lock the thread fairly quickly. We're just picking over details on an internet forum. Probably the best thing to do with DZ.com is to chew over the posts, think about the different opinions and how they apply to situations you're in, then ask and talk about the stuff with your local instructors. Quote I'm just trying to think all possibilities through and be prepared for what may happen. Thanks posters for the comments and PMs, what I wanted was issues to be aware of, and that's what I got. There you see? That was our plan all along. You just asked about audibles and we've brought up all sorts of questions about seperation, exit order and pull altitudes you can bring up with your instructors. Are we good or what? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Frenchy68 0 #16 May 27, 2005 QuoteI'm just trying to think all possibilities through and be prepared for what may happen IMO, practicing to tell rough altitude using your own eyes is an essential survival skill. The altitude at which the plane took off can be different than the altitude of the ground below you in freefall... "For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites HydroGuy 0 #17 May 27, 2005 QuoteQuoteMy comment was that pulling high in an emergency situation... Pssst.... Bottom line, I've got news for you... An altimeter breaking, not working, never working, "Disintegrating upon entry into the windstream" -WHATEVER IS NOT A FRIGGIN EMERGENCY SITUATION! DOH! Even for a "30-jump wonder". No one ever said (legitimately) that you have to hold out until the ground looks really, REALLY "BIG"! If, ...and yes even by just 30 lousy jumps, you can't tell the difference between dumping mega-high (like 8, 9, or 10-grand) versus being REASONABLY safer between that and impact, then you probably should rethink about even jumping out of that plane in the 1st place AT ALL. C'mon dude... be real here. Blues, -Grant If he is new - and doesn't have your 10,000 jump God-like awareness of the ground - a broken altimeter IS an emergency situation. Especially if he needs tp perform EP's.Get in - Get off - Get away....repeat as neccessary Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,006 #18 May 27, 2005 >If he is new - and doesn't have your 10,000 jump God-like awareness > of the ground . . . From most accounts God floats around somewhere and doesn't generally impact anything at terminal. You need about 20 jumps to have a mortal awareness of the ground. If a jumper does not have that, then they should be diligent about getting the training they need to get that awareness. >a broken altimeter IS an emergency situation. Especially if he needs tp perform EP's. I've cut away unintentionally five times, and I've never looked at my altimeter. I've had perhaps ten of my students cut away, and afterwards, they recount that they didn't look at their altimeters either. It's generally pretty straightforward - if you open the main and it malfunctions, cut it away. If it will land you safely, don't cut it away. Nothing about an altimeter in there. You don't need an altimeter to perform emergency procedures, and you shouldn't need one to open at a safe altitude. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MarkM 0 #19 May 27, 2005 QuoteYou need about 20 jumps to have a mortal awareness of the ground. If a jumper does not have that, then they should be diligent about getting the training they need to get that awareness. I'm pretty sure you used to be a S&TA. This kid walks up to you, has 30 jumps, asks what he should do if his alti stops working after leaving the plane. Is worried about the tandem coming out behind him. What do you tell him: pull when his mortal danger sense goes off, pull when he thinks he's at about his normal pull altitude, or pull higher than that and just fly the canopy down? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,006 #20 May 27, 2005 >What do you tell him: pull when his mortal danger sense goes off, pull > when he thinks he's at about his normal pull altitude, or pull higher than > that and just fly the canopy down? 1. If he's with someone, break off with them, track for the normal amount of time, then pull. 2. If he's solo, pull at his expected altitude. If he can't judge altitude very accurately, pull higher - and in the meantime learn to judge altitude. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Scrumpot 1 #21 May 27, 2005 Quote2. If he's solo, pull at his expected altitude. If he can't judge altitude very accurately, pull higher - and in the meantime learn to judge altitude. Can I clarify "pull higher"? ...Sure, maybe something you may feel is a little higher (if need be to make you feel more "comfortable"), but let's say your alti busts RIGHT OUT THE DOOR, then certainly not right then ...in ANY case. Would you concur? I am not a TM (nor do I want to be ), but the one thing I sure do know is that I most certainly wouldn't want to be dealing with any random (and especially low-time) do-do head flying about underneath me under OPEN CANOPY as I'm screaming towards him in (less than optimally manueverable) drogue-fall! MarkM, I hate to sound like a hard-ass about this, but seriously, ...30-jump wonder exits, gets stable, does his "COA" (remember those? ) ...Notices "OH SHIT" my altimiter's BUSTED (or heck ...flew-off)- - - "end the skydive" (ie: dump right then & there) is WRONG and most certainly CAN be an issue. Not only just for TM's but ANYBODY who may have been in either a group, solo, or otherwise have been following this jumper out! This would only (and UNNECESSARILY IMHO) INCREASE his/her potential for peril/incident. And then not only THEIRS, but OTHERS (as noted potentially behind them) as well. -Grantcoitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,006 #22 May 27, 2005 > but let's say your alti busts RIGHT OUT THE DOOR, then certainly not right then .. Yeah, even someone at the ten-jump mark is going to know the difference between 10,000 feet and 5000 feet. By all means, pull before you feel you are low - but try not to pull at 10,000 feet. During AFF we tell people up to level 3 that they have to pull right away if there are any problems. Starting with level 4, we tell them that it's safer to continue the dive (provided they are aware, stable and comfortable) than to dump really high, partly because it's not that safe to have people open at random altitudes. But as always, getting an open parachute before impact takes the highest priority. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MarkM 0 #23 May 27, 2005 Quote MarkM, I hate to sound like a hard-ass about this, but seriously, No problem, I like the discussion on this stuff because often I may not know what I think I know Quote ...30-jump wonder exits, gets stable, does his "COA" (remember those? ) ...Notices "OH SHIT" my altimiter's BUSTED (or heck ...flew-off)- - - "end the skydive" (ie: dump right then & there) is WRONG and most certainly CAN be an issue. Not only just for TM's but ANYBODY who may have been in either a group, solo, or otherwise have been following this jumper out! This would only (and UNNECESSARILY IMHO) INCREASE his/her potential for peril/incident. And then not only THEIRS, but OTHERS (as noted potentially behind them) as well. I'm curious what the added danger is though. Let's say he's pulling at 4k normal and ends up pulling at 5-7k because it looks about right(erring a bit on the high side). If the tandem coming out after him is pulling at 5-6k, how is it any more dangerous for him to pull at say 9 or 10k? If he's sliding out of his column of airspace towards the tandem's airspace, going down to 6k from 9k isn't going to make that any less of an issue. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 4 #24 May 28, 2005 QuoteFirst get better at telling your altitude by REALLY looking at the ground, you should be able to guess when your getting close to pull time. Second do what I did with your audible set them for just after breakoff, just after pulltime and hard deck. That way you get a beep AS you are tracking off and a beep while you chute is opening (learn to do and get confirmed NOT learn to do as the beeps tell you to do) ... but what do I know I'm just a 100 jump wonder I think that this good advise no matter if it comes from a "100 jump wonder" or someone with a few thousand jumps. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DanG 1 #25 May 28, 2005 I'm going to go out on a limb and disagree with the illustrious billvon. I've only cut away twice, and on one of those occasions I did look at my altimeter. It was a line-twist malfunction that I tried to clear for some time. Having the altimeter available let me know how much time I had to work with the problem. I ended up cutting away, but if I had been able to work out the problem before my hard deck, it would have been prefereable than going to my last chance. It would have also been preferable to a repack and new freebag. In response to the inevitable "you should have looked at the ground and been able to tell how high you were" I say that it is easier said than done when turning and over a densely forested area south of the usual opening area. Also, we do, in the FJC, tell students about their hard deck and that there are certain malfunctions they can attempt to clear, if above their hard deck. Having an altimeter in the case of a line twist, severe end-cell closure, or slider-up malfunction can be the difference between landing a main and landing a reserve. So, in short, I would tell Orange1 to, first, consult with her instructors, but that if she loses altitude awareness (which is what has happened if she has no altimeter and can't visually determine how high she is) she should end the skydive and pull. If this happens right out the door? Sucking it down is an option, but if she is concerned with backsliding into someone elses airspace, pulling higher is better than pulling lower. If you do not have horizontal separation right out the door, then you will certainly not have it at 5,000 feet. - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
skyyhi 0 #10 May 27, 2005 I still do not have an audible alti. I have borrowed and used on occasion but most of the time prefer to jump without. I have gotten VERY good at knowing when I need to break off, track and pull just by looking at the ground. . .when I verify with my alti, I am right on. That being said, if I was jumping serious 4-way or freeflying, I believe I would want an audible. It is too easy to get caught up in what you are doing and forget to check. . .jmho. . .________________________________________ Take risks not to escape life… but to prevent life from escaping. ~ A bumper sticker at the DZ FGF #6 Darcy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MarkM 0 #11 May 27, 2005 Quote Dude....Yes, I know what he is talking about. My response was to your comment about pulling high not being an issue. Pulling high is an issue. My comment was that pulling high in an emergency situation shouldn't be an issue because of horizontal separation. Quote At the very least if there are no other options I would suggest flipping over to check the airspace above you and / or tracking in either direction perpendicular to the flight line. If you are high enough, you should have time to do either or and still pull at a safe altitude. Why complicate the situation for a low jumper who probably won't be able to remember what the flight line was, probably can't back fly worth anything and probably doesn't have the awareness to see other jumpers in freefall that he's not right next too? Your altimeter not working and you have no other reliable means of telling altitude? End the skydive. You look down and your reserve handle is flapping around and working itself free? End the skydive. You look to the side and your main risers have worked themselves free and are flapping around wildly? End the skydive. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Orange1 0 #12 May 27, 2005 Quote Why complicate the situation for a low jumper who probably won't be able to remember what the flight line was, probably can't back fly worth anything and probably doesn't have the awareness to see other jumpers in freefall that he's not right next too? Your altimeter not working and you have no other reliable means of telling altitude? End the skydive. Um, I didn't mean to start an argument here. For clarity: I am a "less-than-30 jump wonder" who is aware of the flightline (our geographical cross-references make it easy) but you are right I am not wholly aware of other jumpers in the air on solo freefalls. To touch on another poster's points, I DO have a tendency to backslide (I'm working on it!!). The tandems were mentioned because on a recent load the TM asked me what height I pull at, and specifically said to me "don't pull higher because we may be right behind you". (I didn't think to ask about separation, but there were relatively strong winds that day - maybe a factor? or maybe he knew I backslide...or maybe he was just being ultra-cautious given my low jump #s) Whether or not I would THINK about tracking, flipping etc at this stage if something goes wrong... I don't know. (I went through SL first so my freefall abilities vs jump #s may be overestimated by those who are used to AFF grads with the same # of jumps.) I'm just trying to think all possibilities through and be prepared for what may happen. Thanks posters for the comments and PMs, what I wanted was issues to be aware of, and that's what I got. Oh, and the "he" is a she.Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
funks 1 #13 May 27, 2005 QuoteQuote QuoteWhy complicate the situation for a low jumper Sorry, I dont consider this complicating the situation. I consider it being a safe and aware skydiver. QuoteYour altimeter not working and you have no other reliable means of telling altitude? End the skydive. Disagree. Depending on altitude, I dont think altimeter failure is reason enough to jeopardize other jumpers exiting behind you. QuoteYou look down and your reserve handle is flapping around and working itself free? End the skydive. Off topic, but yes I agree QuoteYou look to the side and your main risers have worked themselves free and are flapping around wildly? End the skydive. Off topic once again, but yes I agree And to the original poster who commented on starting an argument. Dont think of it that way..this is all just constructive (or deconstructive depending on who you ask) opinions flying back and forth. But once again, just please remember to check with your instructor. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Scrumpot 1 #14 May 27, 2005 QuoteMy comment was that pulling high in an emergency situation... Pssst.... Bottom line, I've got news for you... An altimeter breaking, not working, never working, "Disintegrating upon entry into the windstream" -WHATEVER IS NOT A FRIGGIN EMERGENCY SITUATION! DOH! Even for a "30-jump wonder". No one ever said (legitimately) that you have to hold out until the ground looks really, REALLY "BIG"! If, ...and yes even by just 30 lousy jumps, you can't tell the difference between dumping mega-high (like 8, 9, or 10-grand) versus being REASONABLY safer between that and impact, then you probably should rethink about even jumping out of that plane in the 1st place AT ALL. C'mon dude... be real here. Blues, -Grantcoitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MarkM 0 #15 May 27, 2005 Quote Um, I didn't mean to start an argument here. Nah, it's all good. Trust me, if it was really an argument a greenie would be in here and lock the thread fairly quickly. We're just picking over details on an internet forum. Probably the best thing to do with DZ.com is to chew over the posts, think about the different opinions and how they apply to situations you're in, then ask and talk about the stuff with your local instructors. Quote I'm just trying to think all possibilities through and be prepared for what may happen. Thanks posters for the comments and PMs, what I wanted was issues to be aware of, and that's what I got. There you see? That was our plan all along. You just asked about audibles and we've brought up all sorts of questions about seperation, exit order and pull altitudes you can bring up with your instructors. Are we good or what? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Frenchy68 0 #16 May 27, 2005 QuoteI'm just trying to think all possibilities through and be prepared for what may happen IMO, practicing to tell rough altitude using your own eyes is an essential survival skill. The altitude at which the plane took off can be different than the altitude of the ground below you in freefall... "For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites HydroGuy 0 #17 May 27, 2005 QuoteQuoteMy comment was that pulling high in an emergency situation... Pssst.... Bottom line, I've got news for you... An altimeter breaking, not working, never working, "Disintegrating upon entry into the windstream" -WHATEVER IS NOT A FRIGGIN EMERGENCY SITUATION! DOH! Even for a "30-jump wonder". No one ever said (legitimately) that you have to hold out until the ground looks really, REALLY "BIG"! If, ...and yes even by just 30 lousy jumps, you can't tell the difference between dumping mega-high (like 8, 9, or 10-grand) versus being REASONABLY safer between that and impact, then you probably should rethink about even jumping out of that plane in the 1st place AT ALL. C'mon dude... be real here. Blues, -Grant If he is new - and doesn't have your 10,000 jump God-like awareness of the ground - a broken altimeter IS an emergency situation. Especially if he needs tp perform EP's.Get in - Get off - Get away....repeat as neccessary Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,006 #18 May 27, 2005 >If he is new - and doesn't have your 10,000 jump God-like awareness > of the ground . . . From most accounts God floats around somewhere and doesn't generally impact anything at terminal. You need about 20 jumps to have a mortal awareness of the ground. If a jumper does not have that, then they should be diligent about getting the training they need to get that awareness. >a broken altimeter IS an emergency situation. Especially if he needs tp perform EP's. I've cut away unintentionally five times, and I've never looked at my altimeter. I've had perhaps ten of my students cut away, and afterwards, they recount that they didn't look at their altimeters either. It's generally pretty straightforward - if you open the main and it malfunctions, cut it away. If it will land you safely, don't cut it away. Nothing about an altimeter in there. You don't need an altimeter to perform emergency procedures, and you shouldn't need one to open at a safe altitude. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MarkM 0 #19 May 27, 2005 QuoteYou need about 20 jumps to have a mortal awareness of the ground. If a jumper does not have that, then they should be diligent about getting the training they need to get that awareness. I'm pretty sure you used to be a S&TA. This kid walks up to you, has 30 jumps, asks what he should do if his alti stops working after leaving the plane. Is worried about the tandem coming out behind him. What do you tell him: pull when his mortal danger sense goes off, pull when he thinks he's at about his normal pull altitude, or pull higher than that and just fly the canopy down? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,006 #20 May 27, 2005 >What do you tell him: pull when his mortal danger sense goes off, pull > when he thinks he's at about his normal pull altitude, or pull higher than > that and just fly the canopy down? 1. If he's with someone, break off with them, track for the normal amount of time, then pull. 2. If he's solo, pull at his expected altitude. If he can't judge altitude very accurately, pull higher - and in the meantime learn to judge altitude. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Scrumpot 1 #21 May 27, 2005 Quote2. If he's solo, pull at his expected altitude. If he can't judge altitude very accurately, pull higher - and in the meantime learn to judge altitude. Can I clarify "pull higher"? ...Sure, maybe something you may feel is a little higher (if need be to make you feel more "comfortable"), but let's say your alti busts RIGHT OUT THE DOOR, then certainly not right then ...in ANY case. Would you concur? I am not a TM (nor do I want to be ), but the one thing I sure do know is that I most certainly wouldn't want to be dealing with any random (and especially low-time) do-do head flying about underneath me under OPEN CANOPY as I'm screaming towards him in (less than optimally manueverable) drogue-fall! MarkM, I hate to sound like a hard-ass about this, but seriously, ...30-jump wonder exits, gets stable, does his "COA" (remember those? ) ...Notices "OH SHIT" my altimiter's BUSTED (or heck ...flew-off)- - - "end the skydive" (ie: dump right then & there) is WRONG and most certainly CAN be an issue. Not only just for TM's but ANYBODY who may have been in either a group, solo, or otherwise have been following this jumper out! This would only (and UNNECESSARILY IMHO) INCREASE his/her potential for peril/incident. And then not only THEIRS, but OTHERS (as noted potentially behind them) as well. -Grantcoitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,006 #22 May 27, 2005 > but let's say your alti busts RIGHT OUT THE DOOR, then certainly not right then .. Yeah, even someone at the ten-jump mark is going to know the difference between 10,000 feet and 5000 feet. By all means, pull before you feel you are low - but try not to pull at 10,000 feet. During AFF we tell people up to level 3 that they have to pull right away if there are any problems. Starting with level 4, we tell them that it's safer to continue the dive (provided they are aware, stable and comfortable) than to dump really high, partly because it's not that safe to have people open at random altitudes. But as always, getting an open parachute before impact takes the highest priority. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MarkM 0 #23 May 27, 2005 Quote MarkM, I hate to sound like a hard-ass about this, but seriously, No problem, I like the discussion on this stuff because often I may not know what I think I know Quote ...30-jump wonder exits, gets stable, does his "COA" (remember those? ) ...Notices "OH SHIT" my altimiter's BUSTED (or heck ...flew-off)- - - "end the skydive" (ie: dump right then & there) is WRONG and most certainly CAN be an issue. Not only just for TM's but ANYBODY who may have been in either a group, solo, or otherwise have been following this jumper out! This would only (and UNNECESSARILY IMHO) INCREASE his/her potential for peril/incident. And then not only THEIRS, but OTHERS (as noted potentially behind them) as well. I'm curious what the added danger is though. Let's say he's pulling at 4k normal and ends up pulling at 5-7k because it looks about right(erring a bit on the high side). If the tandem coming out after him is pulling at 5-6k, how is it any more dangerous for him to pull at say 9 or 10k? If he's sliding out of his column of airspace towards the tandem's airspace, going down to 6k from 9k isn't going to make that any less of an issue. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 4 #24 May 28, 2005 QuoteFirst get better at telling your altitude by REALLY looking at the ground, you should be able to guess when your getting close to pull time. Second do what I did with your audible set them for just after breakoff, just after pulltime and hard deck. That way you get a beep AS you are tracking off and a beep while you chute is opening (learn to do and get confirmed NOT learn to do as the beeps tell you to do) ... but what do I know I'm just a 100 jump wonder I think that this good advise no matter if it comes from a "100 jump wonder" or someone with a few thousand jumps. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DanG 1 #25 May 28, 2005 I'm going to go out on a limb and disagree with the illustrious billvon. I've only cut away twice, and on one of those occasions I did look at my altimeter. It was a line-twist malfunction that I tried to clear for some time. Having the altimeter available let me know how much time I had to work with the problem. I ended up cutting away, but if I had been able to work out the problem before my hard deck, it would have been prefereable than going to my last chance. It would have also been preferable to a repack and new freebag. In response to the inevitable "you should have looked at the ground and been able to tell how high you were" I say that it is easier said than done when turning and over a densely forested area south of the usual opening area. Also, we do, in the FJC, tell students about their hard deck and that there are certain malfunctions they can attempt to clear, if above their hard deck. Having an altimeter in the case of a line twist, severe end-cell closure, or slider-up malfunction can be the difference between landing a main and landing a reserve. So, in short, I would tell Orange1 to, first, consult with her instructors, but that if she loses altitude awareness (which is what has happened if she has no altimeter and can't visually determine how high she is) she should end the skydive and pull. If this happens right out the door? Sucking it down is an option, but if she is concerned with backsliding into someone elses airspace, pulling higher is better than pulling lower. If you do not have horizontal separation right out the door, then you will certainly not have it at 5,000 feet. - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
Scrumpot 1 #14 May 27, 2005 QuoteMy comment was that pulling high in an emergency situation... Pssst.... Bottom line, I've got news for you... An altimeter breaking, not working, never working, "Disintegrating upon entry into the windstream" -WHATEVER IS NOT A FRIGGIN EMERGENCY SITUATION! DOH! Even for a "30-jump wonder". No one ever said (legitimately) that you have to hold out until the ground looks really, REALLY "BIG"! If, ...and yes even by just 30 lousy jumps, you can't tell the difference between dumping mega-high (like 8, 9, or 10-grand) versus being REASONABLY safer between that and impact, then you probably should rethink about even jumping out of that plane in the 1st place AT ALL. C'mon dude... be real here. Blues, -Grantcoitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MarkM 0 #15 May 27, 2005 Quote Um, I didn't mean to start an argument here. Nah, it's all good. Trust me, if it was really an argument a greenie would be in here and lock the thread fairly quickly. We're just picking over details on an internet forum. Probably the best thing to do with DZ.com is to chew over the posts, think about the different opinions and how they apply to situations you're in, then ask and talk about the stuff with your local instructors. Quote I'm just trying to think all possibilities through and be prepared for what may happen. Thanks posters for the comments and PMs, what I wanted was issues to be aware of, and that's what I got. There you see? That was our plan all along. You just asked about audibles and we've brought up all sorts of questions about seperation, exit order and pull altitudes you can bring up with your instructors. Are we good or what? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Frenchy68 0 #16 May 27, 2005 QuoteI'm just trying to think all possibilities through and be prepared for what may happen IMO, practicing to tell rough altitude using your own eyes is an essential survival skill. The altitude at which the plane took off can be different than the altitude of the ground below you in freefall... "For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HydroGuy 0 #17 May 27, 2005 QuoteQuoteMy comment was that pulling high in an emergency situation... Pssst.... Bottom line, I've got news for you... An altimeter breaking, not working, never working, "Disintegrating upon entry into the windstream" -WHATEVER IS NOT A FRIGGIN EMERGENCY SITUATION! DOH! Even for a "30-jump wonder". No one ever said (legitimately) that you have to hold out until the ground looks really, REALLY "BIG"! If, ...and yes even by just 30 lousy jumps, you can't tell the difference between dumping mega-high (like 8, 9, or 10-grand) versus being REASONABLY safer between that and impact, then you probably should rethink about even jumping out of that plane in the 1st place AT ALL. C'mon dude... be real here. Blues, -Grant If he is new - and doesn't have your 10,000 jump God-like awareness of the ground - a broken altimeter IS an emergency situation. Especially if he needs tp perform EP's.Get in - Get off - Get away....repeat as neccessary Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,006 #18 May 27, 2005 >If he is new - and doesn't have your 10,000 jump God-like awareness > of the ground . . . From most accounts God floats around somewhere and doesn't generally impact anything at terminal. You need about 20 jumps to have a mortal awareness of the ground. If a jumper does not have that, then they should be diligent about getting the training they need to get that awareness. >a broken altimeter IS an emergency situation. Especially if he needs tp perform EP's. I've cut away unintentionally five times, and I've never looked at my altimeter. I've had perhaps ten of my students cut away, and afterwards, they recount that they didn't look at their altimeters either. It's generally pretty straightforward - if you open the main and it malfunctions, cut it away. If it will land you safely, don't cut it away. Nothing about an altimeter in there. You don't need an altimeter to perform emergency procedures, and you shouldn't need one to open at a safe altitude. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MarkM 0 #19 May 27, 2005 QuoteYou need about 20 jumps to have a mortal awareness of the ground. If a jumper does not have that, then they should be diligent about getting the training they need to get that awareness. I'm pretty sure you used to be a S&TA. This kid walks up to you, has 30 jumps, asks what he should do if his alti stops working after leaving the plane. Is worried about the tandem coming out behind him. What do you tell him: pull when his mortal danger sense goes off, pull when he thinks he's at about his normal pull altitude, or pull higher than that and just fly the canopy down? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,006 #20 May 27, 2005 >What do you tell him: pull when his mortal danger sense goes off, pull > when he thinks he's at about his normal pull altitude, or pull higher than > that and just fly the canopy down? 1. If he's with someone, break off with them, track for the normal amount of time, then pull. 2. If he's solo, pull at his expected altitude. If he can't judge altitude very accurately, pull higher - and in the meantime learn to judge altitude. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scrumpot 1 #21 May 27, 2005 Quote2. If he's solo, pull at his expected altitude. If he can't judge altitude very accurately, pull higher - and in the meantime learn to judge altitude. Can I clarify "pull higher"? ...Sure, maybe something you may feel is a little higher (if need be to make you feel more "comfortable"), but let's say your alti busts RIGHT OUT THE DOOR, then certainly not right then ...in ANY case. Would you concur? I am not a TM (nor do I want to be ), but the one thing I sure do know is that I most certainly wouldn't want to be dealing with any random (and especially low-time) do-do head flying about underneath me under OPEN CANOPY as I'm screaming towards him in (less than optimally manueverable) drogue-fall! MarkM, I hate to sound like a hard-ass about this, but seriously, ...30-jump wonder exits, gets stable, does his "COA" (remember those? ) ...Notices "OH SHIT" my altimiter's BUSTED (or heck ...flew-off)- - - "end the skydive" (ie: dump right then & there) is WRONG and most certainly CAN be an issue. Not only just for TM's but ANYBODY who may have been in either a group, solo, or otherwise have been following this jumper out! This would only (and UNNECESSARILY IMHO) INCREASE his/her potential for peril/incident. And then not only THEIRS, but OTHERS (as noted potentially behind them) as well. -Grantcoitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,006 #22 May 27, 2005 > but let's say your alti busts RIGHT OUT THE DOOR, then certainly not right then .. Yeah, even someone at the ten-jump mark is going to know the difference between 10,000 feet and 5000 feet. By all means, pull before you feel you are low - but try not to pull at 10,000 feet. During AFF we tell people up to level 3 that they have to pull right away if there are any problems. Starting with level 4, we tell them that it's safer to continue the dive (provided they are aware, stable and comfortable) than to dump really high, partly because it's not that safe to have people open at random altitudes. But as always, getting an open parachute before impact takes the highest priority. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MarkM 0 #23 May 27, 2005 Quote MarkM, I hate to sound like a hard-ass about this, but seriously, No problem, I like the discussion on this stuff because often I may not know what I think I know Quote ...30-jump wonder exits, gets stable, does his "COA" (remember those? ) ...Notices "OH SHIT" my altimiter's BUSTED (or heck ...flew-off)- - - "end the skydive" (ie: dump right then & there) is WRONG and most certainly CAN be an issue. Not only just for TM's but ANYBODY who may have been in either a group, solo, or otherwise have been following this jumper out! This would only (and UNNECESSARILY IMHO) INCREASE his/her potential for peril/incident. And then not only THEIRS, but OTHERS (as noted potentially behind them) as well. I'm curious what the added danger is though. Let's say he's pulling at 4k normal and ends up pulling at 5-7k because it looks about right(erring a bit on the high side). If the tandem coming out after him is pulling at 5-6k, how is it any more dangerous for him to pull at say 9 or 10k? If he's sliding out of his column of airspace towards the tandem's airspace, going down to 6k from 9k isn't going to make that any less of an issue. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #24 May 28, 2005 QuoteFirst get better at telling your altitude by REALLY looking at the ground, you should be able to guess when your getting close to pull time. Second do what I did with your audible set them for just after breakoff, just after pulltime and hard deck. That way you get a beep AS you are tracking off and a beep while you chute is opening (learn to do and get confirmed NOT learn to do as the beeps tell you to do) ... but what do I know I'm just a 100 jump wonder I think that this good advise no matter if it comes from a "100 jump wonder" or someone with a few thousand jumps. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #25 May 28, 2005 I'm going to go out on a limb and disagree with the illustrious billvon. I've only cut away twice, and on one of those occasions I did look at my altimeter. It was a line-twist malfunction that I tried to clear for some time. Having the altimeter available let me know how much time I had to work with the problem. I ended up cutting away, but if I had been able to work out the problem before my hard deck, it would have been prefereable than going to my last chance. It would have also been preferable to a repack and new freebag. In response to the inevitable "you should have looked at the ground and been able to tell how high you were" I say that it is easier said than done when turning and over a densely forested area south of the usual opening area. Also, we do, in the FJC, tell students about their hard deck and that there are certain malfunctions they can attempt to clear, if above their hard deck. Having an altimeter in the case of a line twist, severe end-cell closure, or slider-up malfunction can be the difference between landing a main and landing a reserve. So, in short, I would tell Orange1 to, first, consult with her instructors, but that if she loses altitude awareness (which is what has happened if she has no altimeter and can't visually determine how high she is) she should end the skydive and pull. If this happens right out the door? Sucking it down is an option, but if she is concerned with backsliding into someone elses airspace, pulling higher is better than pulling lower. If you do not have horizontal separation right out the door, then you will certainly not have it at 5,000 feet. - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
