Two out questions

[RossDagley 0]

I've read that in a two out situation, its possible to land the pair under certain circumstances such as when they're in a bi-plane and you control the dominant canopy and leave the other canopies brakes stowed. I also read that the dominant canopy is usually the larger of the two.

This raised an interesting train of thought, so I fugured I'd ask here to see if you guys have any advice. Presuming my main is a 188, and my reserve is a 190, is the difference enough between the two to presume the reserve will 'nearly always' be the dominant canopy, and if so, what are the risks Vs rewards of flying the smaller shute (IE the main) if it doesn't work out that way, and again, whats the risks involved in cutting away the main (presuming the dominant canopy is indeed the reserve)

Hope you followed that!

Thanks in advance.

Ross

[Orange1 0]

be aware that i am a newbie, but i got refreshed on this subject relatively recently. What i was taught comes with the caveat that the instructor told me that he would try (but did not suggest it should be done by someone with low experience) to get a clean cutaway of the main done. In fact, I was specifically told not to cut away in case the main tangled with the reserve in the process.

First, he said that the dominant canopy is usually the main - maybe someone else can clarify but i presumed this is due to the position of the main vs reserve in the harness (or it might simply be due to the fact that reserves are smaller than mains on the student rigs there?). Always fly the main towards the reserve to prevent a downplane eg if you need to turn left but that would mean flying the main away from the reserve, you would do a series of right turns to be facing the correct way. If a downplane starts developing, correct it again by flying the main towards the reserve. Gentle toggle input all the way, and do NOT flare for landing.

This to me is the 2nd-scariest situation after a horseshoe. Any comments on the above guidance would be of interest.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[lowie 0]

Heres my advice for what it's worth.
Talk to your instructor(s ) about this ASAP and ignore advice on this site until you have done so.
You probably should have been taught about this in your FJC but you need to get your Instructors to talk you through all the different scenarios.

cheers

[RossDagley 0]

It was a train of thought I had last night, and I'm not at the DZ for a couple of weeks unfortunately, so I cant ask there. I sorta figured there was a 'standard' way of dealing with this situation, and was looking for other peoples input and experiences.

I appreciate the 'talk to your instructors' line, but that could in theory be the answer to everything - I'm after a broader range of 'generalisation' than a specific instructor (whether mine or anyone elses) would give.

Thanks though

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[JohnGraham 0]

Read the PIA Dual Square Report (clicky here) on the PD website, it will tell you plenty.

[achowe 0]

seek advice from your instructor

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Woooaaaaaa!!! Woooaaaa!!! I'm gettin' off it!

[canyonracerx 0]

From my AFF instructor not me, the dominant one which you should steer from is whatever is in front whether it's your main or reserve. The chute in front will stay inflated while the one behind it will probably go in and out of inflation. If you can cut your main away without it being tangled up, do it....again this is from my instructor not me, i figured i'd post it since it is still fresh in my memory from sunday.

[RossDagley 0]

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seek advice from your instructor

As I said above...

[billvon 2,989]

> is the difference enough between the two to presume the reserve
>will 'nearly always' be the dominant canopy,

No. The term "dominant canopy" is misleading anyway, as if one of the canopies has all the control and the other one doesn't affect things. They can both affect your course.

In any two-out situation that you a) have any control over whatsoever and b) will land you safely, I believe the best course of action is to leave it alone as much as possible. If you can steer it towards an open area, you are descending slowly, and the configuration is stable, steer as little as possible, find an open area and PLF. Don't turn a configuration that will save your life into one that won't.

As always, talk to your instructors/S+TA for the final word on this.

[kevinwhelan 0]

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In any two-out situation that you a) have any control over whatsoever and b) will land you safely, I believe the best course of action is to leave it alone as much as possible. If you can steer it towards an open area, you are descending slowly, and the configuration is stable, steer as little as possible, find an open area and PLF. Don't turn a configuration that will save your life into one that won't.

Is there any situation where you would advise trying ti induce a downplane and cutting away,? Say if you are high and the winds are a bit turbulent?

What things apart from your own input can cause a downplane when you are low,

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"be honest with yourself. Why do I want to go smaller? It is not going to make my penis longer." ~Brian Germain, on downsizing

[tombuch 0]

This is a general reply for EXPERIENCED jumpers, and not for the student who started the thread.

I was always suspicious about handling a dual deployment and landing a side by side or a biplane. I assumed the descent rate would be fast, and the mess would be hard to control. I was wrong. A while back I did some CRW training and became quite comfortable with many two canopy situations. A downplane is a horrible thing to land, but other than that, two parachutes flying together are easy to control, and the descent rate is pretty slow.

It's tough to describe how every possibility will fly, but it's easy to get experience. If you have a chance this summer, try some CRW with a competent canopy flyer. It will give you great confidence flying in crowded airspace, and will help you to better understand how to fly a side by side or biplane.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[dorbie 0]

The advice on biplane is different from side by side. Your comments on a dominant canopy suggests you're confusing the two scenarios. Read the relevant section in the SIM, (it's about one page) & talk to your instructors.

[RossDagley 0]

Thanks you all for your suggestions. As I touched on above, I'll be discussing this with my instructor when I'm next at the DZ.

I wasn't looking for 'specifics' as in, "do this, then do that" I was more looking for general "when that happened to me, i did this and that happened" - I do appreciate that some people take whats said on here as gospel and run off and do it - I'm not one of those sheep It was simply an area I'd read a reasonable bit about, and wanted to know more - knowledge is power, or in my case, knowledge overcomes fear. I'd rather be knowledgeable and in the shit than fearful and in the shit!

Thanks again guys for all the help

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[domesuzie 0]

Why not just pull down on both front risers of the dominant (front) canopy making it dive, while at the same time stall the rear canopy by pulling down both brakes, and while doing this cut away your main. This procedure should leave plenty of room for the main to clear the reserve without entangling. If this doesn’t work you have the rest of your life to try something else. Or you could just leave it alone and plf.

[billvon 2,989]

> Why not just pull down on both front risers of the dominant (front)
>canopy making it dive, while at the same time stall the rear canopy by
>pulling down both brakes, and while doing this cut away your main . . .

Because you would need five hands to do that.

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

Is there any situation where you would advise trying ti induce a downplane and cutting away,? Say if you are high and the winds are a bit turbulent?

One instructor said he might opt to do that. But his primary advise was that if it was doing ok, not to screw with a good thing.

The two AFF guides I got disagreed on two out policy. One opted for always cutaway, the other only for biplane.

[phoenixlpr 0]

LOL

If he can do that he would be able to pack any slippery canopy with his 5 hands in use:).

[phoenixlpr 0]

Why mess up 2 flying, stable canopy? You have some chance to get 0 flying canopy if you don`t leave them alone.

[TrickyDicky 0]

As tought by every instructor I know in the UK on a FJC for a two out situation:

ALWAYS use GENTLE input or NONE AT ALL. Dont flare for landing and plf.

For biplane (ie. one canopy infront of another) steer with the front canopy.

For side-by-side: stear with the main AWAY from the reserve. This prevents people with little/no experience overdoing the turn and entangling the two. If you steer away the worst you can do is induce a downplane. There is a rule in the UK that student Kit must use different coloured main and reserve toggles, usually yellow and red respectivly so students know which is which.

Downplane: chop the main.

Never chop the main unless in a downplane.

I have never seen a two out. The two Ive heard of at my DZ were two experienced jumpers who lost altitude awareness and their cypres's fired as they deployed their mains. Just make sure you keep altitude aware, handles and pads covered in the aircraft and check them after deployment.

UK Skydiver for all your UK skydiving needs.

[efex 0]

Yeap, just what tricky said ;)

Marc

Warwick University Skydiving Club

[JohnMitchell 16]

Quote

ALWAYS use GENTLE input or NONE AT ALL. Dont flare for landing and plf.

For biplane (ie. one canopy infront of another) steer with the front canopy.

If the canopies are in a biplane configuration, you can flare the front one for landing. In CRW, I've landed about 50 biplanes. I've also watched students with 2 out do it quite well, no problems.

[steve1 5]

I don't have a lot of experience on this, but I did have two out last summer. My main was in front of the reserve and it flew well. I took the brakes off the front canopy and made minimal inputs on it. I ended up with a down wind landing, but did manage to miss a tree, a brush pile, and a fence. The landing was hard, but nothing a good PLF wouldn't handle. You can see this crash landing on last years Lost Prairie video. If you would like my autograph, call BR-549....Steve1

[phoenixlpr 0]

What was the reason of your two out?

[steve1 5]

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What was the reason of your two out?

Mostly stupidity. We had twenty-way go a little low. Then I tracked too far after my dytter went off. Then I had a snivelly opening, and then my cypress fired. Something I won't do again....Steve1

[Reginald 0]

Ouch, there is a lot of questionable advice and information in this thread from people with low levels of experience. Anyone that completed a FJC in the US should have learned the below information. I’m going to presume the same advice is given to our skydiving friends in other countries too, however it’s worth checking your local best practices if you are in another country.

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SIM 4-H

a. Biplane
(1) Do not cut away.
(2) Steer the front canopy gently using toggles.
(3) Leave the brakes stowed on the back canopy.
(4) Make a parachute landing fall on landing.

b. Side-by-side (two alternatives)

side-by-side alternative one
If the two canopies are not tangled, cut away
and fly the reserve to a safe landing.

side-by-side alternative two
(1) Steer the dominant (larger) canopy gently
using toggles.
(2) Leave the brakes stowed on the other canopy.
(3) Make a parachute landing fall on landing.

c. Downplane: Cut away the main canopy.
jumpers should steer to the right.

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A personal note. I was taught in a side by side that can’t be cut away do to a line entanglement to steer the dominate canopy towards the other canopy (albeit very gently ) because a downplane is a worse possible outcome than possible additional entanglement.

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP