should TIME IN SPORT also become a requirement instead of jumpnumbers alone..

[johan340 0]

Trust me I got patience, sure I have always wanted to fly a wingsuit and that is also what I'm looking forward to the most (that might change though)but I'm in no hurry what-so-ever to get there.

I will take my time for as long as I have to until I would feel ready/comfortable enough for it and that might not even be after 300-400 jumps, I'm just very happy to finally have gotten to book the course it self and are on my way to become a skydiver and make a dream come true.

The only problem I have is when someone force me to hold my self back no matter what it is about and yes I'm fully aware of the risks in skydiving and I'm not arguing against the rules per se, just that I feel that if someone can prove them self being able to handle advancing up then they should be able to do so even if they have just done 150jump and so on.(its all about the circumstances that could show it aswell)

Even though I like high risk sports and combat fighting etc, I hate getting hurt so I avoid taking stupid and unnecessary risks as much as I can which is also why I will just take my time and take it as it comes, I'm in no hurry and I'm gonna enjoy the ride.

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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For instruction, yes. For other stuff, I don't think so. After a couple hundred jumps, currency is more important than time in sport for things like wingsuits and camera flying. But I do think people should have to be around a while before they can become coaches or instructors.

Dave

Surviving 'advanced' skydiving requires learning judgement. Acquiring good judgement in a few hundred jumps requires exceptional self-awareness, starting with a deficit which allows pain to be a teacher, or learning from other people.

The first option is unlikely. We like people to avoid the middle category and don't like to see them hurt worse when their early mis-adventures don't do the trick. That leaves second hand experience.

Second hand experience comes from time in the sport.

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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like in smaller DZ where everyone pretty much knows everyone, then it would be easier for an instrocture to be able to tell if a person would be able to handle something like a wingsuit even before the 200mark if that person asked for it.

A small DZ is more likely to have less experienced, part-time instructors than a large one who don't see enough to draw valid statistical conclusions about what's less safe.

Skydiving is easy when everything goes well. Flying a wingsuit is about like tracking. Hundred square foot cross-braced canopies nearly land themselves.

It's when things start going wrong, people lack the instinctive behaviors needed to deal with them, and the total stimulation gets too high that everything goes to heck.

That isn't predictable beyond the assumption that it takes a certain amount of repetition to get there.

There's also the issue of the instructors having less skin in the game.

When a low experience person dies on a wing suit jump, the rest of us feel bad but aren't dead. When some one adds an extra joint between their ankle and knee while jumping a parachute that's too small we might visit them in the hospital, but don't have to deal with the pain, lay-off from jumping, or complications.

[johan340 0]

Yes I understand what it is you are saying and as I have said before I accept how things are and are in no rush what-so-ever it may even turn out that I will never fly wingsuit who knows??? I don't, not now anyways, I will just take it as it goes but that doesn't mean I have to like it even though I accept it.

[piisfish 140]

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..for "advanced" disciplines, like wingsuit, camera-flying etc!?

Numbers + Time + Skillz

for the time, I'd say 3 years minimum

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[nigel99 501]

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..for "advanced" disciplines, like wingsuit, camera-flying etc!?

this post made me wonder

For the reasons that many of the posts state you can't effectively have a "time in the sport" requirement.

It may be the more pertinant question is are the current jump numbers adequate? At my DZ it took people years to accumulate 500+ jumps, times have changed and you can now accumulate jumps very quickly. Another alternative is to expand the license scheme such that you have to follow an AFF type training course to participate in an advanced discipline.

Self regulation works when people truly understand and grasp the risks, as skydiving has drifted towards being a "safe(r)" sport and marketed at the masses, there comes a time when people have to step in and set and police the rules. From the outside (I am no longer a current jumper) it appears that skydiving is at a point where if the USPA does not toughen it's stance, the Health and Safety freaks will fill the void. I understand that the BPA is more heavily regulated than the USPA, I am not sure if there is anything that can be learned from the BPA (other than Brits like rules)

BTW as context I spent every weekend of 5 years at the DZ sleeping in the kit room. Although as a poor spotty faced kid, it was more about driving jumpers from the dz to the airport, packing, and drugs than skydiving

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[virgin-burner 1]

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..for "advanced" disciplines, like wingsuit, camera-flying etc!?

Numbers + Time + Skillz

for the time, I'd say 3 years minimum

i'm in my 3rd year, so shut up..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[davelepka 4]

Consider that the USPA, one of the slowest moving organizations in history, has changed the requirements for the 'expert' D license from the long standing 200 jumps to the new requirement of 500 jumps.

200 jumps is still 200 jumps, but the jumps were far easier and quicker to come by, leading to 'expert' skydivers who were less than 'experts'.

Now it's 500 jumps, which of course takes longer to achieve, forcing the 'experts' to have more time in the sport.

[piisfish 140]

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i'm in my 3rd year, so shut up..

so you can start wingsuiting and videoflying once you blow your 3rd candle .. that's next summer ?

me thinks in the thread you related, that many people come to skydiving with a couple of goals, which are what they saw on videos... Wingsuiting, BASE jumping etc... but don't realise all the efforts you have to put before even starting to think about having the tenth of the skillz of starting such disciplines.

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[virgin-burner 1]

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i'm in my 3rd year, so shut up..

so you can start wingsuiting and videoflying once you blow your 3rd candle .. that's next summer ?

me thinks in the thread you related, that many people come to skydiving with a couple of goals, which are what they saw on videos... Wingsuiting, BASE jumping etc... but don't realise all the efforts you have to put before even starting to think about having the tenth of the skillz of starting such disciplines.

you're absolutely right, some havent even made a first jump, so.. one can only hope they'll be scared so much out of their mind that they pick up collecting stamps instead..

i fear, i must admit, i've been rushing with things in the past, and maybe i still am, but some things take longer to realize; there's this good saying "you dont know what you dont know"! and predicting someone's gonna die will not help the "stoopid n00b"!

so, actually putting a time- and jumplimit which would need to be enforced in place seems to be a better way than just saying you need X amount of jumps to do this..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

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The only problem I have is when someone force me to hold my self back no matter what it is about and yes I'm fully aware of the risks in skydiving and I'm not arguing against the rules per se, just that I feel that if someone can prove them self being able to handle advancing up then they should be able to do so even if they have just done 150jump and so on.(its all about the circumstances that could show it aswell)

... I will just take my time and take it as it comes, I'm in no hurry and I'm gonna enjoy the ride.

You haven't done a FJC, yet you think you are fully aware of the risks.

Afraid not.

The phrase "You don't know what you don't know" fits here.

This sport has a million ways to kill you. I probably know a couple thousand, have experienced a couple dozen and seen or directly heard of maybe a couple hundred more.

The jump requirements give the jumper a better chance to personally experience situations that didn't go as planned.

The time requirements give the jumper a better chance to see it happen to others.

I'm really glad to see the last sentence. Picking a discipline (like wingsuit Base) and saying "I don't care about anything else, I just wanna do that" is really restrictive. You never know what's going to turn you on until you try it.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[MikeJD 0]

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you will have great basic knowledge of how to defend your self from a real threat with for instent a knife or protect one self from being raped or being strangled etc etc because that is what they are meant for, there only purpose is to be used as efficiently as possible and with as little effort as possible on the streets against all types of weapons and several opponent attacks at the same time.

You know, I was thinking Sweden might be a nice place to visit. But now... not so much...

[rehmwa 2]

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I’d rather see a requirement for “X” number of coached jumps than I would time in sport. …

don't let USPA or DZOs hear this one - it'll be cut in instantly so they can make more $$$


Edit: on topic

Instructions ratings - I'd rather the DZOs and the evaluators take the time to know the individual and allow them to progress based on their personal knowledge of that person's skill and judgment. No matter how long in sport or how many jumps.

Wingsuits, tiny canopies, etc - I'd rather equipment manufacturer's and the jumpers local DZO and S&TA take the time to know the jumper's readiness before allowing them to use equipment that is higher risk in the sport.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[johan340 0]

Well there are only one risk one can be "fully" aware of and that would be death from a simple mistake, right? you don't think I have been close to death before in other sports? Or even been hit by a car while walking on a sidewalk?I know how it is to be close to death and be in a serious accidents.

And I have talked a lot before with people who skydive and read up on the risks that are in the sport and seen pretty much every clip there is on youtube and similar sites with accidents, the only thing I don't know is how it is from personal experience but I'm aware of the risks that are in the sport and I accept that.

And that quote would be a better saying if it said "you don't know, what you don't realize"

One can know something but its not until one realize what it means that the full meaning of it will appear to one self.

And I didn't say I was going to go direct to wingsuit or start BASE- jumping, where did you get that from? you must have mixed me with someone else and you should read my other post again.

"sure I have always wanted to fly a wingsuit and that is also what I'm looking forward to the most (that might change though)but I'm in no hurry what-so-ever to get there."

Everyone can have a dream of something, something to look forward to but that doesn't mean I would cut corners to get there. Same thing with people who dream of becoming police officers or any other high risk profession, they are not 100% aware of the risks until they actually are in a line of fire or having to deal with someone on ice etc its the same thing.

Would you tell everyone you meet that if they have a dream of something, you will just tell them "fucking idiot, you know shit about shit"(no offense)

As I said:
"I will take my time for as long as I have to until I would feel ready/comfortable enough for it and that might not even be after 300-400 jumps, I'm just very happy to finally have gotten to book the course it self and are on my way to become a skydiver and make a dream come true. "

As long I get to do just regular skydiving then I'm fine with that, to get to experience that feeling over and over I got from tandem, I never said anything else.

"and saying "I don't care about anything else, I just wanna do that" is really restrictive."- Show me where I said something remotely like that!!!

Maybe you should read what I wrote again.

And about restrictive part; I know what I can and what I can't do and what I can't do I practice until I can.

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You know, I was thinking Sweden might be a nice place to visit. But now... not so much...

Its far more safer here then in the UK ;)


E: and btw On my tandem we crashed in the landing do to a hard sidewind and I face planted the ground but it still didn't put me of the thought of skydiving or made my experience any worse so I have already been in one skydive accident and I got it one film too hehe

[Will_Evo 0]

5 jumps a weekend=260 a year.
So then if you make the requirement 3 years and 200 jumps for a discipline, then your taking some motivation out of it, because in 3 years, that guy is going to have over 700 jumps. Not very fair to him right?


-Evo

PS. Peace to all, I'm not meaning to make anyone angry

Zoo Crew

[billvon 3,006]

>Well there are only one risk one can be "fully" aware of and that would be
>death from a simple mistake, right?

Uh - no. There are plenty of complex mistakes in skydiving that will kill you, too. And right now you have no idea what any of those mistakes are.

>you don't think I have been close to death before in other sports?

We have seen this time and time again. "I race motorcycles so I understand the risks, and I am comfortable with speed! So I am way above average, and can jump that tiny canopy with my superior judgment and reaction times." They often end up dead. Conclusion there - they really didn't understand the risks.

Back when Jack was managing Perris, he'd go out to every yahoo who broke his leg. They all had the same thing to say - "I thought I had it." "I thought I could pull it off." Not a single one said "that was an expected result of the increased risks I was taking." Conclusion there - they really didn't understand the risks.

Around a year ago a jumper really wanted to wingsuit. He went to a DZ that told him he didn't have enough experience, that he needed some more jumps/time in sport. He ignored them and went to another DZ, where he found someone who was willing to stick him in a wingsuit. He died. Conclusion there - he didn't quite understand what he was doing, much less the risks involved.

> and seen pretty much every clip there is on youtube and similar sites with
>accidents, the only thing I don't know is how it is from personal experience but
>I'm aware of the risks that are in the sport and I accept that.

If someone said "I'm ready for sparring - I have seen every Chuck Norris movie there is, I am totally aware of the risks and I am ready to accept them" - would you agree with him that he's ready?

>I know what I can and what I can't do and what I can't do I practice until I can.

No, you don't. You don't even know what you don't know - and you certainly don't know enough to make judgments based on relative risks.

[nigel99 501]

Bill,

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>Well there are only one risk one can be "fully" aware of and that would be
>death from a simple mistake, right?

I think this is a lost in translation thing. I believe that he is saying that a small mistake can result in death and ultimately that is the single most important fact in skydiving - not that there is only one mistake you can make.

The fact that young males (generalisation) tend to underestimate risk, is not unique to skydiving and why some governments are increasing the age that people can drive etc.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[davelepka 4]

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5 jumps a weekend=260 a year.
So then if you make the requirement 3 years and 200 jumps for a discipline, then your taking some motivation out of it, because in 3 years, that guy is going to have over 700 jumps. Not very fair to him right?

Fair? This isn't about fair or unfair, this is about what would be safe and prudent. There's nothing fair about going in.

Let's be real though, not everyone will do 260 jumps per year. Jumpers with seasonal DZs are lucky if they can get 100 jumps per year between the winter, weather in the summer, and other life obligations.

Even then, if you are doing 260 jumps per year, so what? Keep it up, you're making alot of jumps. Don't whine about what you can't do, how about get better at what you can do.

Rushing into anything in skydiving has never worked out well. I remember being a newbie, and wanting to do it all. 200 jumps seemed like a mountain, and three years of jumping sounded like an eternity. 15 years later I'm still at it, and can easily see that 200 jumps isn't that much at all, and three years of skydiving is a damn good time. Shut up and jump.

[johan340 0]

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Bill,

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>Well there are only one risk one can be "fully" aware of and that would be
>death from a simple mistake, right?

I think this is a lost in translation thing. I believe that he is saying that a small mistake can result in death and ultimately that is the single most important fact in skydiving - not that there is only one mistake you can make.

The fact that young males (generalisation) tend to underestimate risk, is not unique to skydiving and why some governments are increasing the age that people can drive etc.

Yes I know that is what he meant and I was trying to be sarcastic but that is something I'm very bad at hehe

I have been doing extreme sport before and been in accidents before and I don't take stupid risks just been unlucky like when I crashed with my DH bike which could have killed me as well but it just put me in a sick lead for two years just doing rehab and being home on the couch and made me only be able to work 25% etc etc etc wont bring up the whole story and then I decided fuckit now I will do what I really wanna do (those my quote below, I saw a documentury a few years back and its from an norwegian skydiver who crashed and was paralised from the hip down but started skydiving again because that was what gave him a reason to live and to get better so he could start skydiving again) and my body is getting better again and I remembered what that guy said and that's when I decided that now I won't let anything stop me from getting my license as work and other stuff have came in between before as well.

Danger exists in all extreme sports those the name Extreme, something that would be pretty obvious.

If he cared to read my post properly then he would understand that I'm not a "dare devil" I don't take unnecessary risk because I don't like getting injured so I prepare my self as much as possible with everything I'm getting my self in to and also a reason why I joined this forum to expend my theoretical (sp?) knowledge before going on the course and of course for a long time ahead about gears and everything around and I'm also going to London to do some tunnel training in a few month before the course as well and so on and so forth.

No matter what I do/get my self in to, I always do my research.

There are positive and negative aspects of every law/rule in a society/sports and one should be able to have a discussion (which being on a forum is also about) about them both the negative and positive. Otherwise what is the point in asking questions etc?

I just gave my view on what I feelt was the negative part of it and I have also said several times that I understand and agree with the positive things about it even though I might not like it my self.

[Will_Evo 0]

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5 jumps a weekend=260 a year.
So then if you make the requirement 3 years and 200 jumps for a discipline, then your taking some motivation out of it, because in 3 years, that guy is going to have over 700 jumps. Not very fair to him right?

Fair? This isn't about fair or unfair, this is about what would be safe and prudent. There's nothing fair about going in.

Let's be real though, not everyone will do 260 jumps per year. Jumpers with seasonal DZs are lucky if they can get 100 jumps per year between the winter, weather in the summer, and other life obligations.

Even then, if you are doing 260 jumps per year, so what? Keep it up, you're making alot of jumps. Don't whine about what you can't do, how about get better at what you can do.

Rushing into anything in skydiving has never worked out well. I remember being a newbie, and wanting to do it all. 200 jumps seemed like a mountain, and three years of jumping sounded like an eternity. 15 years later I'm still at it, and can easily see that 200 jumps isn't that much at all, and three years of skydiving is a damn good time. Shut up and jump.

Whoa whoa, that was uncalled for. The point is some people will do that many jumps per year, but you would discount their experience because of time!? That is ass backwards in a sport that tells people they don't know shit because they have never jumped, but then will tell someone who has done it, 700 times, that their experience is not real? Cmon man, it has jack shit to with time, spending 2 years on your couch at home with a license in hand qualifies you for nothing. On the other hand, someone who is at the DZ every weekend, making an effort, learning, jumping, experiencing malfunctions, seeing them happen, talking to people in person, THOSE are the people gaining true experience, time has nothing to do with it.

And I have no obligation to "shut up". Just because you don't like what I have to say doesn't make it ok to be an asshole.

-Evo

Zoo Crew

[billvon 3,006]

> but you would discount their experience because of time!? That is
>ass backwards in a sport that tells people they don't know shit because
>they have never jumped, but then will tell someone who has done it, 700
>times, that their experience is not real?

No, no one's saying that.

But again, if you make 700 jumps in six months (possible nowadays) there's a lot of stuff you just don't know about yet. Summer, for example. (Or winter, if you started in summer.)

>Cmon man, it has jack shit to with time, spending 2 years on your
>couch at home with a license in hand qualifies you for nothing. On the
>other hand, someone who is at the DZ every weekend, making an effort,
>learning, jumping, experiencing malfunctions, seeing them happen,
>talking to people in person, THOSE are the people gaining true
>experience, time has nothing to do with it.

Exactly! It's time IN SPORT that matters, not time on the couch.

[airtwardo 7]

...and if you had more time in the sport you would realize that 'Shut Up And Jump' isn't someone being an 'asshole'.

It's damn near a term of endearment!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Will_Evo 0]

>Exactly! It's time IN SPORT that matters, not time on the couch

So then wouldn't you agree that jump number is directly related to time IN SPORT? Therefore making jump number an accurate measurement of experience?

-Evo

Zoo Crew

[airtwardo 7]

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>Exactly! It's time IN SPORT that matters, not time on the couch

So then wouldn't you agree that jump number is directly related to time IN SPORT? Therefore making jump number an accurate measurement of experience?

-Evo

Umm...WOOSH!



(that was me being an asshole)

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[billvon 3,006]

>So then wouldn't you agree that jump number is directly related to time
>IN SPORT? Therefore making jump number an accurate measurement of
>experience?

No.

Someone who is at the DZ every weekend, and makes 500 jumps in six months, does not have the same amount of time in sport that someone who is at the DZ every weekend and makes 500 jumps over the course of two years. In fact he only has 1/4 of the time in sport.

Both are superior to the person who has one jump and has been on the couch for two years.