Denying a pin check

[billvon 3,059]

>Doesn't matter to me how long it takes. I do gear checks the same way,
>checking the same things, every time, regardless of how many times I've
>jumped that day. So it takes an extra minute to open and reclose the
>flap - I'd much rather be a minute late to the loading area than be wrong
>in thinking that everything was still okay under there.

That's fine.

When I started skydiving I recalibrated my AAD before each jump, because they were finicky anyway, and that was DZ policy.

Do you turn your AAD off and on before each jump? Or do you figure that your AAD is good enough/reliable enough/smart enough that you don't have to do that? If you don't do that, are you really saying that you don't care enough about your safety to do that? Or do you do it because it seems to work OK?

(BTW I do indeed check my reserve pin before each jump - I just don't have to open my reserve flap to do so.)

[skybytch 273]

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Do you turn your AAD off and on before each jump? Or do you figure that your AAD is good enough/reliable enough/smart enough that you don't have to do that? If you don't do that, are you really saying that you don't care enough about your safety to do that? Or do you do it because it seems to work OK?

Well, since the manufacturer of my AAD says I don't have to recalibrate it or turn it off and on again before I make another jump at the same dz, all I have to do is turn it in the morning and look at the control unit to be sure it's still on before each jump.

Not sure what that has to do with looking under the reserve flap though. Wouldn't you want to know that you somehow got a small rock stuck in the ripcord cable housing on your last jump? How can you tell if your RSL is still routed correctly without opening the flap? If your rig has the AAD control unit underneath the reserve flap, how can you check it to be sure it's still on?

Those who expect to be listened to when preaching safety should practice it. Even if it seems silly to you to take an extra minute to look under that flap. That newbie standing over there watching you is learning about what "experienced" jumpers do from what you are doing. Not from what you told him to do.

[icevideot 0]

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I'm sorry you were treated the way you were in 1985, but that was 24 years ago

Wait a second.......1985 was 24 years ago?

Ouch!

Seriously though, gear checks are a great idea for you. That being said, not everyone on the plane should be assuming it is okay to start fooling around with your gear without asking.

On AFF and coaching jumps, gear checks on my student's gear is part of the job. I still don't do them without informing the jumper first. After I do the gear check, I would not take kindly to seeing anyone else screwing with it either. If they see something suspicious they should tell me and I will definitely check it out at that point.

If you are still not licensed you should have this discussion with your instructors. If you are licensed then you should update your profile.


One of the struggles for new female jumpers is too many people wanting to "help" them along. I have seen too many that are trying to learn 20 different ways to pack at once because everyone wants to share their way. Pin checks can be a similar phenomenon. Choose the one near you that you trust the most and then, as politely as they will respond to, tell the others that it has been taken care of. You should also be protecting your handles in the aircraft and be mindful of anyone bumping or jostling against your gear in the plane.

I have replaced stiffeners on 2 rigs that I am quite confident I did not break. I am selective who I have open my flaps. Jumpers are free to offer pin checks and I am free to decline or accept as I see fit. Jumpers are also free to not jump with me or even board the plane with me if they choose.

I have also spent many jumps sitting in front of a tandem student and have out of necessity learned to feel my pins to assure they are properly seated. I would only distract a tandem master from his routine if I believed I needed the help.

Having seen a jumper being encouraged to be part of an 18 way that only had 32 jumps, I am not at all convinced being on a 35 way qualifies one to handle my gear. I do trust them to understand theirs however and will happily check or fix anything they ask, as well as point out anything I have doubts about.

"... this ain't a Nerf world."

[DSE 5]

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"Back to back camera load days are simply too crazy to allow for it."

Another genius statement. Real Men of Genius...sing it with me... Here's to you Mr. Too busy to take a few seconds to be 100% sure the fucking reserve pin and loop are cool.

Chorus: I'm too fucking important.


edit: I hate to have to call you out Bro, but your post above makes no sense to me. Can you explain to us why your reserve pin checks appear to be whenever you feel like it?

Don't we owe it all to each other to check our shit for the safety as other as well? Is an otter full of skydivers worth a few seconds of OUR time?

And you post this mentality?

Just because I don't LIFT my reserve cover? Read again. I check my reserve pin on each jump with my finger. Dan G feels that's not good enough. I'm open to the possiblity it might not be.
Have you ever put your finger under a Voodoo cover? You can feel:
If the pin is secure in the pocket
If the middle of the pin is over the grommets
and if it's bent.
Can't feel if there is a nick, because I can only feel one side of the pin. As a result, I'm reconsidering my practices.
Isn't that the point of the discussion.

[icevideot 0]

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Those who expect to be listened to when preaching safety should practice it. Even if it seems silly to you to take an extra minute to look under that flap. That newbie standing over there watching you is learning about what "experienced" jumpers do from what you are doing. Not from what you told him to do.

I am confused here. You are quick to condemn the mods for honestly describing their practices that I don't see as inherently unsafe since the gear in question is only used by them and I am confident they take care of. I could respect your view of this if you hadn't openly stated in a post you started that you are angry you weren't allowed on a sunset load after 7pm because you had 2 beers before 1pm. Are you serious? I would expect our dzo to suspend a jumper trying anything like that.

I am assuming you are an instructor based on your statements in the post about the drinking since you haven't seen fit to fill in your profile.

If I stand up the landing in the grass where would this rock you speak of come from to get in the cable housing? I also don't happen to have an RSL on either rig. Neither AAD is controlled from under the reserve flap either for that matter.

Your knee jerk response that seems rather sharp to me, is based on several assumptions that wouldn't prove applicable in my case. I can't say for sure about their gear but I trust their judgement.

I hope you don't think I am angry with you, I am just amazed at how quick several posters on here are to condemn others and yours was the most recent post when I finally responded.

[cocheese 0]

I'm done with this thread. Maybe a 10 jump student can chime in with some more things you might want to reconsider after reading their post.

[skybytch 273]

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I would expect our dzo to suspend a jumper trying anything like that.

Really? Would you expect your dzo to suspend a jumper who was way too drunk to drive at 3 am but wants to be on a load at 9 am? What's the difference?

And for the record, I did state that I understood the reasoning behind me not being allowed to jump that evening. The anger was not over me not getting to jump, it was over the application of a double standard. If it's okay for anyone (much less an instructor with a student) to jump at 9 am when they were falling down drunk at 3 am (pretty likely they are still hung over if not still a bit drunk), then it should be okay for anyone to jump at 7 pm when they had two beers before 1 pm (pretty likely that they are just as sober as they were when they rolled out of bed).

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If I stand up the landing in the grass where would this rock you speak of come from to get in the cable housing? I also don't happen to have an RSL on either rig. Neither AAD is controlled from under the reserve flap either for that matter.

I had this discussion with my (very experienced AFFI/master rigger) s/o this morning. His gear is much the same as yours. He checks under his reserve flap every morning and when a student is directly observing him but other than that he trusts that nothing has changed. I'm absolutely confident that no one else uses his rig, that he takes good care of it and that the only time it touches the ground is when he sets it down to pack, but I still requested that he consider lifting that flap before every jump regardless of what kind of jump it is or how many times he's jumped that day. Not because I really think that anything is going to change under there, but because students and novices are watching and learning from what he does, even when they are on the other side of the packing area.

Perhaps I'm excessively anal about gear checks, but I was taught that being excessively anal about skydiving gear is a good thing. I don't KNOW that some tandem passengers kid didn't mess with it while I was taking a leak. Hasn't happened yet, but is that a good reason to think that it never will? Sure would suck to find out the hard way that something under there HAD changed.

Not doing a complete gear check because you "know" that nothing has changed is, to me, being complacent. I don't think that's the right message to be sending to our noobs.

What's the downside to looking under the reserve flap before every jump? Time and effort. Being 100% sure isn't worth spending an extra 30-60 seconds looking at your gear before every jump?

If seeing you checking under there before every skydive makes that guy with 20 jumps who still can't land standing up think that it's really important to do so and 50 jumps later - on his own rig - he finds a small rock in his cable housing, wouldn't you think that the extra 30-60 seconds it takes you to check under there was worthwhile? I sure would.

[billvon 3,059]

>Well, since the manufacturer of my AAD says I don't have to
>recalibrate it or turn it off and on again before I make another jump at
>the same dz . . .

My rig's manual says this about gear inspections:

"The best approach to maintaining your rig is to periodically spend a few minutes examining every detail on it. This inspection should be done at least every month. If any wear or damage is found have it repaired immediately by a qualified rigger. Delaying repairs may result in a malfunction."

I far exceed the manufacturer's recommendations for gear inspection, since I do that every morning and I check the pins/handles/covers before each jump. Now, if you know something they don't about my rig, then by all means, post it.

>all I have to do is turn it in the morning and look at the control unit to
>be sure it's still on before each jump.

?? How do you know someone hasn't taken it to a lower elevation when you weren't looking? That could cause a non-firing or a low firing, and that could kill you. How can you be sure that the battery is not about to die? Only during turn-on is the battery level displayed.

Sounds like you're not willing to take the extra time.

>That newbie standing over there watching you is learning about what
>"experienced" jumpers do from what you are doing.

That may well be - but I do not do what I expect newbies to do. When doing video, I am not completely zipped up when I get in the plane, although my gear is exit-able. I do not wear my helmet for takeoff. I recommend that newer jumpers put all their stuff on before they get in (so they don't forget gear and so they are better protected) and I recommend they wear their helmets. I jump a Crossfire2 109 that I land in the grass, even though I recommend students jump larger canopies and land in the student circle. I will jump in winds up to about 20kts even though I recommend that less experienced jumpers stop jumping before that.

Does that make me a hypocrite? Does that mean you'll never jump with me again because of the horrible example I am setting? If yes, then so be it.

[skybytch 273]

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That may well be - but I do not do what I expect newbies to do. When doing video, I am not completely zipped up when I get in the plane, although my gear is exit-able. I do not wear my helmet for takeoff. I recommend that newer jumpers put all their stuff on before they get in (so they don't forget gear and so they are better protected) and I recommend they wear their helmets.

Do as I say, not as I do. That works just as good in skydiving as it does in parenting.

Get on the plane ready to get out. Yeah it's hot - SIUCC and zip up that suit. Put the helmet on - it's not doing you any good on your chest strap. If it's not on your head or secured to your chest strap, you're putting everybody else on the load at risk. That's not a good example to be setting.

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I jump a Crossfire2 109 that I land in the grass, even though I recommend students jump larger canopies and land in the student circle. I will jump in winds up to about 20kts even though I recommend that less experienced jumpers stop jumping before that.

Right. You have the experience to handle a higher wingloading and higher winds. But jump numbers don't change the fact that shit can happen to your gear without you knowing about it.

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Does that make me a hypocrite?

Hypocrite? No. Complacent? Possibly.

I don't expect you or anybody else to agree with me. But I am asking that, as an instructor and as someone that is looked up to by new jumpers, you consider "walking your talk" when it comes to the very basic safety stuff that we preach to our students. They look to us to see how things are done in the real world, and they are still watching when we're fun jumping and when they are no longer students.

[billvon 3,059]

>Get on the plane ready to get out.

I do.

>Yeah it's hot - SIUCC and zip up that suit.

Why? So I can "set a good example" that everyone else can follow? No thanks. Leaving my jumpsuit open is part of my system for doing camera. While the suit is open, the lens covers are on and the cameras are off. Once the suit is zipped up, then the cameras are ready to go. That's a backup reminder for me.

That's a system I use; it doesn't work for everyone, and I'm not willing to change my system to suit the lowest common denominator. I'm not jumping a Manta, giving up video and retiring my wingsuit just in case someone with 30 jumps thinks 'well, if Bill can do it, then I can do it.'

>Put the helmet on - it's not doing you any good on your chest strap.

Again, no thanks. I'm not willing to sacrifice my spine to convince you (or anyone) that they should be wearing their helmets/frap hats. I'll tell them the reasons I think they should, and the reasons I often do just that - but the final decision is up to them.

[velvetjo 0]

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Get on the plane ready to get out. Yeah it's hot - SIUCC and zip up that suit. Put the helmet on - it's not doing you any good on your chest strap. If it's not on your head or secured to your chest strap, you're putting everybody else on the load at risk. That's not a good example to be setting.

To briefly interject in this episode of the urinary Olympics , most "camera helmets" should probably be renamed "camera holders" due to the lack of head protection afforded. If anything, a full video/still setup strapped to your head is a liability in a crash. This is due to the significant amount of weight causing additional potential for whiplash-type injuries.

To avoid the need to don helmets, one of our riggers sewed quick-release straps to allow easy attachment to the chest strap for takeoffs (and the occasional landing). The straps are then stowed in a jumpsuit pocket once we reach emergency exit altitude. This is a compromise solution, but at least the travel range is very limited in case the thing becomes a projectile.

Lance

[trigger 0]

To briefly interject in this episode of the urinary Olympics , most "camera helmets" should probably be renamed "camera holders" due to the lack of head protection afforded. If anything, a full video/still setup strapped to your head is a liability in a crash. This is due to the significant amount of weight causing additional potential for whiplash-type injuries.
***

Tell me about it, but you're definitely better off with one on head

.CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER.

[skybytch 273]

Continually ignoring the point that was being made... Love it.

One more time. How hard is it to open up your reserve flap before you put your rig on? Numerous good reasons to do so have been mentioned already.

Can ANYONE give us ONE good reason (that doesn't involve the expending of extra time or effort) to NOT look under there before you put your rig on?

[billvon 3,059]

>Can ANYONE give us ONE good reason (that doesn't involve the
>expending of extra time or effort) to NOT look under there before you
>put your rig on?

Wearing out the stiffeners; results in poorer pin protection as the stiffeners wear.

[velvetjo 0]

Wow! Point taken - there are trade-offs in everything.

Lance

[skybytch 273]

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Wearing out the stiffeners; results in poorer pin protection as the stiffeners wear.

No need to check under the main flap either then.

[DSE 5]

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Get on the plane ready to get out. Yeah it's hot - SIUCC and zip up that suit. Put the helmet on - it's not doing you any good on your chest strap. If it's not on your head or secured to your chest strap, you're putting everybody else on the load at risk. That's not a good example to be setting.

To briefly interject in this episode of the urinary Olympics , most "camera helmets" should probably be renamed "camera holders" due to the lack of head protection afforded. If anything, a full video/still setup strapped to your head is a liability in a crash. This is due to the significant amount of weight causing additional potential for whiplash-type injuries.

To avoid the need to don helmets, one of our riggers sewed quick-release straps to allow easy attachment to the chest strap for takeoffs (and the occasional landing). The straps are then stowed in a jumpsuit pocket once we reach emergency exit altitude. This is a compromise solution, but at least the travel range is very limited in case the thing becomes a projectile.

Lance

Sorry, gotta disagree. There isn't a person who saw my bounce that would suggest I had ANY chance of living without my Bonehead FTP. NO chance.
It may not be DOT, but having slammed into the ground at very high speed and the only head/facial trauma was a chipped tooth due to biting through my tongue switch....
Been there...done that. have the wad of grass to prove it. And I was wearing a 50d, CX7, Microlite panel, and wireless receiver on it.
I agree, a lanyard is great for takeoff. Prevents losing the helmet in an emergency, yet provides some freedom for shooting takeoffs.
Funny thing, I don't wear helmets on a motorcycle where I have a greater need for one, but I almost always wear one of three helmets on every skydive.
Go figure.

[pms07 3]

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> I wonder why that hasn't made it to the experienced gear market.

I think mainly because it's not needed. Good pin protection and a gear check in the morning is proof against just about anything short of deliberate tampering.

That option has made it to the experienced gear market; I've seen several rigs configured that way over the years. I agree it's not needed and many would not want the option regardless...because it looks kind of, well, like student gear...

[billvon 3,059]

It should be noted that we're talking about two different things - helmet use on takeoff and helmet use when skydiving. Many jumpers (myself included) wear regular helmets but not video helmets for takeoff. The big issue there is securing the helmet if it's not being worn so it does not become a projectile hazard.

The second issue is while skydiving. While having a 15 pound helmet can indeed increase your risk of a broken neck during a hard landing, it can also help prevent worse trauma (as you pointed out.) It may be somewhat academic since no one I know takes their camera helmet off under canopy and 'stows it' for landing.

[DSE 5]

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It should be noted that we're talking about two different things - helmet use on takeoff and helmet use when skydiving. Many jumpers (myself included) wear regular helmets but not video helmets for takeoff. The big issue there is securing the helmet if it's not being worn so it does not become a projectile hazard.

The second issue is while skydiving. While having a 15 pound helmet can indeed increase your risk of a broken neck during a hard landing, it can also help prevent worse trauma (as you pointed out.) It may be somewhat academic since no one I know takes their camera helmet off under canopy and 'stows it' for landing.

Point taken, but the comment that "camera helmets don't protect...." annoyed me.
I don't wear mine for takeoff, it's on my chest strap. And can't really imagine taking it off for any but the worst scenario while under canopy. It's been done by some of the best, and proven to not be a great idea.
Thread derailed.

[velvetjo 0]

DSE, I'm on the same page with you & Billvon, sorry if my wording sounded different in the first post. The thought was that in comparison to something like a DOT approved motorcycle helmet, camera helmets just aren't as effective. OTOH, anything that helps spread force over more area during an impact is better than nothing.

Both methods have advantages & disadvantages. Too bad we can't choose what happens during the chaos of an aircraft accident...that would certainly simplify the decision process. All part of the risk, I suppose.

Lance

[trigger 0]

To have a pin check, or not.
It's all about choices,but if the plane crashes on take off like mine did and you're without head protection or you have the damn thing strapped to your chest strap for security, well good luck.

.CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER.

[timmyfitz 0]

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?? How do you know someone hasn't taken it to a lower elevation when you weren't looking? That could cause a non-firing or a low firing, and that could kill you.

??Are you serious? You must be joking, right?

"Damn, my gear was here just a second ago. I hope someone didn't take it to a lower elevation and recalibrate the AAD."

This happen at your DZ a lot? If you are trying to make a point with a little exaggeration, at least try to make it close to plausible.

[doug.mcilwraith 0]

Not quite the same is it? Main flaps are designed to open frequently. I've seen lots of containers with bent reserve flaps (specifically on Wings containers).

This is usually cause by people yanking the flap open/closed on run in without removing the tuck tabs. One rig specifically comes to mind that had the continual problem of the reserve flap opening and flapping around during freefall eek. Subsequently fixed, but not good at all.

The bottom line is that you "ask" somebody if they want a pin check. They reserve the right to say no. Personally I check my reserve in the morning and perform pre-exit checks with my finger. After carefully weighing the pros and cons of this "system" its the one I adopt. Don't assume I want your mitts on my gear. Until its legislated through the appropriate governing body (USPA/BPA) Don't assume its your right to check reserve pins.

Interestingly, the BPA require pre exit checks (including reserve pin) for students only. Sensible. Note that this is not a requirement for licensed skydivers - although advised. The assumption being that the skydiver in question is responsible enough to have performed this on the ground.

[billvon 3,059]

>This happen at your DZ a lot?

It never has to me, although it occasionally happened to other people at Brown. (Ten points to anyone who can figure out what sort of DZ might have such trouble regularly.) Of course, no one has taken my rig and screwed with the reserve pin and then put it back, either.