Denying a pin check

[DJL 235]

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How are you guys checking your own pins?

Are you reaching back, popping your flap, feeling the pin then redoing the flap without looking?

I'm a bit confused here or perhaps I'm extremely unflexible.

No. You should be able to put your fingers against the pin without opening anything by sliding then under the flap. If you cannot do this then have someone else check it. You then run your fingers along the lower flap and to the BOC pouch to make sure there's no bridle out. Again, if you're not sure what you're feeling then ask someone to check it. If you're wearing gloves then have someone check it.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[riggerrob 643]

Most people can feel if their main pin is correct, but it would require super-human flexibility to check most reserve pins.

On that note, when did "pin checks" stop checking reserve pins?

[DSE 5]

I don't want you checking my reserve pin. I'll check it every few days, that's good enough. My flaps have a unique closing sequence and I've yet to find anyone that understands three separate tuck tabs in two directions. No thanks..just check my main.
Besides, as John Rich mentioned earlier, someone once thought my reserve pin wasn't seated far enough down. the tip was in the pocket, but the head of the pin wasn't against the grommets (as it shouldn't be) and the person checking me was telling me how he felt the reserve pin needed to be pulled down. No thanks. Leave it alone. Main only, please.
I usually feel for my own, but if there are newbs or students on board, I ask someone for a pin check merely to set an example.

[skydivr 0]

I personally do not like anyone touching my rig that I don't know. I am very careful how I pack and don't want someone I don't know touching it. If someone asks me for a gear check, I'll gladly oblige if it's gear I understand. If not, I'll ask them what they want me to do.

I have seen misrouted bridles, 3-rings wrong and a whole lot of potential fatality-inducing things on the way to altitude in time to either be fixed or that jumper ride the plane down. I don't grab anybody's stuff, but I am very careful to look them in the eye and point it out. Touching your rig is invading your space. Ask politely; refuse politely; no harm no foul.

Keith Abner
D-17590

"Those who do, can't explain; those who don't, can't understand"

[captain_stan 0]

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when did "pin checks" stop checking reserve pins?

Next time you're sittin' by a guy wearing a Racer, ask him if he wants a reserve pin check.

And dude, you guys are slappin' way to hard if you're breaking flap stiffners. My experience is that these are more often damaged from repeated, unnecessary opening and closing by clumsy idiots.

[BrianM 1]

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Most people can feel if their main pin is correct, but it would require super-human flexibility to check most reserve pins.

See? I told you I was super-human!

I can very easily reach around behind my rig and up my back, slide a finger under my reserve flap, and feel the pin and closing loop. Yes, I'm flexible, but super-human I am not. You want a demonstration next time I'm in Pitt Meadows?

One of my Javelins has a broken stiffener in the reserve flap from people who think the proper way to check a reserve pin is to bend the bottom of the flap upwards while the flap is still closed (that, BTW, would be every person who has every given me a reserve pin check - yep, all of them). Open it properly, or just bend down and peek up under the flap - or better yet, don't touch my gear! I can check it myself!

"It's amazing what you can learn while you're not talking." - Skydivesg

[cocheese 0]

"...my reserve pin. I'll check it every few days, that's good enough."

____________

That statement bugs the shit out of me for some reason.

[DSE 5]

Why? I can feel under the flap on every jump, but I don't see the need to peel the tucktabs on each jump to visually inspect it.

[DanG 1]

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Why? I can feel under the flap on every jump, but I don't see the need to peel the tucktabs on each jump to visually inspect it.

You may be able to feel if its in all the way, but I doubt you can feel if the pin is bent or nicked, or if there is wear on the closing loop.

- Dan G

[skybytch 273]

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Why? I can feel under the flap on every jump, but I don't see the need to peel the tucktabs on each jump to visually inspect it.

You may be able to feel if its in all the way, but I doubt you can feel if the pin is bent or nicked, or if there is wear on the closing loop.

Exactly. There is more to a pin check than being sure the pin is seated properly. Unless your rig never leaves your sight, you can't be 100% positive that something didn't happen to it since the last time you checked under that flap.

Also, shouldn't we do what we teach our students to do? If part of a gear check for someone on Cat E is visually inspecting the reserve pin before every jump, instructors should do the same on our own gear. Every time, whether we are working with a student on that skydive or not. Have to assume that they're going to imitate what we DO, not what we tell them to do...

[billvon 2,989]

>If part of a gear check for someone on Cat E is visually inspecting the
>reserve pin before every jump, instructors should do the same on our own
>gear.

Part of the problem there is the protector flap arms race. When I started, a reserve pin check involved lifting up the velcro pin covers on the guy's Vector II and checking his pins. If you forgot, no biggie - they'd probably open in freefall anyway and you could check 'em again.

Lately rig manufacturers are ensuring that those flaps aren't going to open in freefall, ever. That same design makes it a _lot_ harder to do a pin check on the ground. That's good and bad; if it's a 30 second struggle to get the flaps open and closed again, if you leave your rig somewhere and come back to it and the reserve flaps are still closed, odds are 99.99% that nothing happened to the pin under all that protection while you were gone.

However, students may not have the same awareness of what's going on with their gear. And if the DZ's I've been at are any indication, student gear is not nearly as well designed/maintained as sport gear is. The protector flaps are very easy to open because they are designed to be, because they are opened all the time, and because they don't have to stay closed in a head-down.

[DanG 1]

Our Mirage student rigs have a clear plastic window over the reserve pin, making it very easy to visually inspect the pin and closing loop. I wonder why that hasn't made it to the experienced gear market. I guess it's not cool enough.

- Dan G

[billvon 2,989]

> I wonder why that hasn't made it to the experienced gear market.

I think mainly because it's not needed. Good pin protection and a gear check in the morning is proof against just about anything short of deliberate tampering.

[DanG 1]

You're probably right. I check everything on my rig every morning, but only lift up the reserve flap again if I suspect something is wrong. On the other hand, if I were borrowing a rig from someone else, I'd give it the same thorough inspection even if I knew they had just jumped it. Students are, in effect, using borrowed gear on every jump, and you never know what the last guy did to the rig.

- Dan G

[riggerrob 643]

billvon,

You are showing your age!
Tee!
Hee!
Vector 1s had Velcroed reserve in covers up until about 1988, Then the Vector 2 introduced tuck tabs on the reserve pin cover.
Talon continued using Velcro until 1984.

And I have to agree with you about an "arms race" with pin covers. The parts count on a Sigma reserve pin cover equals the ENTIRE parts count on a Softie pilot emergency parachute!

Heck!
You need a type-rating to close some of the fancier pin covers (eg. Voodoo).

[cocheese 0]

Great, two mods that can't take 4 additional seconds to inspect their gear before they put it on.

Class, what have we learned from this? We have learned that when it comes to advice about skydiving, don't get it here.

[billvon 2,989]

>Great, two mods that can't take 4 additional seconds to inspect their gear
>before they put it on.

If I could open and close the reserve flaps in 4 seconds I'd be a lot more likely to inspect it!

>We have learned that when it comes to advice about skydiving, don't get it here.

Any advice you take without thinking is generally bad. Advice that makes you think is good. If what's posted here makes people not get gear checks (or start yanking open other people's containers in the airplane) then they haven't learned much. If such discussions make them think about the value of gear checks, what they should be checking, how to gear check different gear etc. then it's pretty useful.

[mik 2]

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> I wonder why that hasn't made it to the experienced gear market.

I think mainly because it's not needed. Good pin protection and a gear check in the morning is proof against just about anything short of deliberate tampering.

About four of five years ago, half way through a jumping day, I found my reserve pin almost out on my virtually new ICON. The pin was at an angle, and only just hanging in the closure loop. I was jumping the mi8 helicopter and Let410 at the time (many jumps a day) and had checked the pin in the morning. I was packing for myself and the rig was always in the sight of myself or a trusted group of friends. I still don't know for sure what happened but now I check my reserve pin before I put my rig on. Every jump.

***********************************************
I'm NOT totally useless... I can be used as a bad example

[nraines 0]

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Great, two mods that can't take 4 additional seconds to inspect their gear before they put it on.

Class, what have we learned from this? We have learned that when it comes to advice about skydiving, don't get it here.

That is one of the few statements in this entire thread that makes sense.

The more I read this the more surprised I became at the attitude of experienced skydivers as to not needing a simple pin check. I will agree that someone shouldn't do a pin check "behind your back." I also understand that some gear is rare and unique. In those rare instances, decline the check or, on the ground, be proactive and educate your jump buddies on how to look at your gear and identify problems. There is nothing wrong with the attitude of skydiving like people are trying to kill you. But thinking that you are so good that you do not need a second pair of eyes seems foolish. Also, if we are cultivating a generation of skydivers that is so unfamiliar with gear that they can not do pin checks, then there is something seriously flawed with our training system. If your rig is small enough the self checks do work for determining the position of the main pin but they do not let you see if you have color in the window. (Of course you should have looked at that before you got your butt on the plane.) I sit in front of a tandem student 99.9% of the time so I will usually flip the main flap down and have my TI look at the configuration of my pin and bridle, then i will put the flap back into position. Im sure as hell going to climb out after sitting in front a tandem student without getting a pin check.

I have seen two instances where a jumper gets up to exit and their d-bag is left behind them. One was immediately noticed and rode the plane down, the other resulted in a premature out of the door of a Cessna. The d-bag come off and pulled the bridle and PC out and the canopy opened flawlessly. It could have been WAY worse. Im sure the number of stories like that FAR out way the ones where a pin check is somehow done incorrectly. That sounds exactly like the people who do not want to wear a seatbelt because they heard one story where someone died because they had one on.

But whatever... This certainly isn't the place to get advice about skydiving anyway.

[captain_stan 0]

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now I check my reserve pin before I put my rig on. Every jump.

Me too. The design of my Javelin lets me do so without opening the pin-cover flap.

[billvon 2,989]

>The design of my Javelin lets me do so without opening the pin-cover flap.

Yep. The design of the Mirage allows such a check without opening the flap as well; you can see it from the side.

[DSE 5]

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You're probably right. I check everything on my rig every morning, but only lift up the reserve flap again if I suspect something is wrong. On the other hand, if I were borrowing a rig from someone else, I'd give it the same thorough inspection even if I knew they had just jumped it. Students are, in effect, using borrowed gear on every jump, and you never know what the last guy did to the rig.

And I'm in the same boat. I *can* feel if the pin is still seated due to the way the pocket on the Voodoo feels, and I'm fairly sure I could feel if it's bent. My gear isn't left out where others have access to it, and it's locked up every night.
I do open the flap every couple of days, and very open to the suggestion it be done every morning. Every jump? Not every gonna happen. Back to back camera load days are simply too crazy to allow for it.
For AFF jumps...sure. Check it every time so the student sees it happening. Wingsuit jumps, checked every couple of days. I'll probably switch that up to every morning based on a few comments here.
Were I to borrow a rig, it's always carefully inspected. Given that I have multiple rigs, I can't recall the last borrowed rig I've jumped.

[cocheese 0]

"Back to back camera load days are simply too crazy to allow for it."

Another genius statement. Real Men of Genius...sing it with me... Here's to you Mr. Too busy to take a few seconds to be 100% sure the fucking reserve pin and loop are cool.

Chorus: I'm too fucking important.


edit: I hate to have to call you out Bro, but your post above makes no sense to me. Can you explain to us why your reserve pin checks appear to be whenever you feel like it?

Don't we owe it all to each other to check our shit for the safety as other as well? Is an otter full of skydivers worth a few seconds of OUR time?

And you post this mentality?

[skybytch 273]

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>Great, two mods that can't take 4 additional seconds to inspect their gear
>before they put it on.

If I could open and close the reserve flaps in 4 seconds I'd be a lot more likely to inspect it!

Doesn't matter to me how long it takes. I do gear checks the same way, checking the same things, every time, regardless of how many times I've jumped that day. So it takes an extra minute to open and reclose the flap - I'd much rather be a minute late to the loading area than be wrong in thinking that everything was still okay under there.

What really surprises and dismays me is that we now have two AFF instructors, both of whom talk a lot about safety to others on a regular basis, stating publicly that they don't bother to check their reserve pin more than once a day because it's not easy.

[squirrelgirl 0]

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...others have bent me over and checked my rig for me, giving it that slap to let me know all is well. They aren't my instructors, some of them weren't even coaches...
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

Huh? So now "coaches" are not only better qualified to jump with newbies than us mere mortals, but are better qualified than the rest of us to give pre-jump gear checks?

I wasn't saying that at all. However, the mentality at the DZ and all over these forums seems to be that unless you've jumped at least a couple hundred times, your opinion doesn't mean squat about anything. Gear checks included. I'm not crazy, I am absolutely following what I've been told. I'm sorry you were treated the way you were in 1985, but that was 24 years ago, and the opinions are obviously much different now.