More Rules

[beowulf 1]

I have been pondering( Yeah I think once in awhile) anyhow with all of the talk about wingloading BSR's and such this question has been running through my mind and I thought it would make a great thread. Do more rules make us safer skydivers and when is there enough rules?

[davelepka 4]

I don't know if more rules will make safer skydivers. I do know, in regards to the WL BSR, that you have to try harder to frap yourself in with a bigger canopy. The bigger the canopy, the harder you have to try.

[rsibbald 0]

Rules do not make a sport safe.

If there is a rule about something, you often get people blindly believing that as long as that rule is obeyed, all is safe.

There are too many rules when you find yourself asking "Am I allowed to do this?" in place of "How should I prepare myself to do this in the safest possible manner?"

[achowe 0]

Exactly. People begin to spend more time worrying about breaking the 'rules' and getting into trouble for that than actually staying safe and using a bit of common sense.

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Woooaaaaaa!!! Woooaaaa!!! I'm gettin' off it!

[beowulf 1]

I don't know if a WL BSR will solve that problem or not but I do think that everyone needs to think long and hard before making a new BSR. Will it really have the effect that is sought after?

[FrogNog 1]

That way I see it, one thing FARs and BSRs can do - regardless of whether they are obeyed - is say "enough people have been killed or maimed where _this_ was a significant contributing factor that we thought we should write a rule about it."

I admit that doesn't mean every reduceable cause should be written into a rule. But my position is that something that has been a contributing factor to a large number of deaths is a worthwhile candidate for a rule intended to reduce the number of deaths deriving from that factor. And right now a disturbingly large number (that's a perceptive term, not a statistical term) of people are killing or maiming themselves in situations or by conducting actions that we think should only be seriously inuring, lightly injuring, or embarrassing them, and a frequent contributing factor is the design and loading characteristics of their canopies.

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Pull.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Exactly. People begin to spend more time worrying about breaking the 'rules' and getting into trouble for that than actually staying safe and using a bit of common sense.

The flip side of the coin is, if you remove all the rules, will people be safer than before?

Imagine driving without any rules.

Derek

[billvon 2,990]

Rules that say "you can't do X" will not make the sport safer. Rules that say "you need education before you do X" _will_ make the sport safer. Education, not regulation, should be our goal. Regulation, at best, can be a tool used to reach that goal.

[MarkM 0]

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Rules that say "you can't do X" will not make the sport safer. Rules that say "you need education before you do X" _will_ make the sport safer. Education, not regulation, should be our goal. Regulation, at best, can be a tool used to reach that goal.

Perfect reply. The good rules are the ones that keep noobs from killing themselves before they get the skill they need to do what they want to do. Min jump numbers for wingsuits, min pull altitudes based on licenses and even the min landing space requirements for licenses.

[AndyMan 7]

Didn't the following rule make things safer?

Minimum container opening altitudes above the ground for skydivers are:

1. Tandem jumps--4,500 feet AGL

2. All students and A-license holders--3,000 feet AGL

3. B-license holders--2,500 feet AGL

4. C- and D-license holders--2,000 feet AGL

There is no:

5. C- and D- license holders who've got the LowPull signoff - unlimited.

_Am

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You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[Hazarrd 1]

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Didn't the following rule make things safer?

Minimum container opening altitudes above the ground for skydivers are:

1. Tandem jumps--4,500 feet AGL

2. All students and A-license holders--3,000 feet AGL

3. B-license holders--2,500 feet AGL

4. C- and D-license holders--2,000 feet AGL

There is no:

5. C- and D- license holders who've got the LowPull signoff - unlimited.

_Am

rules are meant to be broken. the people that ignore safety advice right now would be the same people that would violate any new rules. i see most of the "rules" in this sport as guidelines. that doesn't mean you shouldn't follow them. but if you don't, ignore them at your own risk. i also feel that some of the rules involve not just your own life, but mine too.

and by the way, is there evidence that those rules actually made things safer? naturally, higher pull altitudes could be reasonably thought to make jumping somewhat safer. not to say they haven't, im just curious.

.-.

[MarkM 0]

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and by the way, is there evidence that those rules actually made things safer?

I'd imagine the C license requirement for the yearly Keys boogie has prevented accidents that have happened at other similar events that had laxer requirements that weren't even enforced.

[Shark 0]

What altitude do you pull at?

Why did you choose that altitude?

[speedyhogan 0]

3000ft. I had a run of pc-in-tow's/hesitations, I like soft openings and landing "on" from bad spots. Also it's not too high to freak anyone exiting after me out. We get 15 grand, why pull low?

Smile, Get It Over With

[Shark 0]

Speedy,

Thanks for your answer, but it was not directed towards you.

[TIETZE 0]

I've always liked these rules....

Booth Law #1
"The lower you pull, the longer your parachute will take to open, and the more likely it is to malfunction."

Booth Law #2
"The safer skydiving gear becomes, the more chances skydivers will take, in order to keep the fatality rate constant."

[phoenixlpr 0]

I was in a kindda boogie on last Saturday. I`ve seen at least 3 young man on crutches. I don`t have to asked them what was the reason. In theory I will be allowed to jump anything after 36 additional jumps. One of my mentor has told me that we may need stronger rules and he was not thinking about me.

[kallend 2,026]

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Didn't the following rule make things safer?

Minimum container opening altitudes above the ground for skydivers are:

1. Tandem jumps--4,500 feet AGL

2. All students and A-license holders--3,000 feet AGL

3. B-license holders--2,500 feet AGL

4. C- and D-license holders--2,000 feet AGL

There is no:

5. C- and D- license holders who've got the LowPull signoff - unlimited.

_Am

\

So how is someone's container opening altitude determined in enforcing this rule? Radar altimeter with data recorder?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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So how is someone's container opening altitude determined in enforcing this rule? Radar altimeter with data recorder?

Not hard to guage what altitude someone deploys at. Watch enough deployments and you'll get good at it.

Is it your opinion that the BSR's should be done away with?

Derek

[kallend 2,026]

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So how is someone's container opening altitude determined in enforcing this rule? Radar altimeter with data recorder?

Not hard to guage what altitude someone deploys at. Watch enough deployments and you'll get good at it.

Is it your opinion that the BSR's should be done away with?

Derek

I strongly disagree. I base this on years of actual experience of asking engineering students to estimate distances much less than 2000ft, and then having them check on their estimates.

You may think you are good at it, but when was your estimating ability actually tested for accuracy?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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I strongly disagree. I base this on years of actual experience of asking engineering students to estimate distances much less than 2000ft, and then having them check on their estimates.

It isn't as hard as just trying to estimate how far a stationary object is away, but adding in other deploying canopies, the time the canopy takes to descend after deploying along with the canopy size and wing loading makes it a lot easier.

***You may think you are good at it, but when was your estimating ability actually tested for accuracy?

All the time when I talked witht he jumper afterwards.

Derek

[billvon 2,990]

>but when was your estimating ability actually tested for accuracy?

Mine's been tested a few times and has been shown to be fairly accurate. So far I've seen five or six deployments on cypres-equipped jumpers at what I thought was ~1000 feet, and in most of those cases, a cypres firing resulted. I've also found my observations of other people on my loads to be accurate, or at least as accurate as my altimeter. It's pretty easy to see if someone opens below 2000 feet if I open at 2000 feet.

[dorbie 0]

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So how is someone's container opening altitude determined in enforcing this rule? Radar altimeter with data recorder?

Not hard to guage what altitude someone deploys at. Watch enough deployments and you'll get good at it.

Is it your opinion that the BSR's should be done away with?

It's not hard to guage when they exit below their minimum either. I've been on hop n' pop runs where almost the entire load got out at 1900ft and had a great laugh about it watching the video when they got down. One guy even did a half a dozen barrel rolls on exit. Maybe he had an E license.

I rode the plane down with one or two other jumpers (none of us because of a regulation).

No points for guessing how many of those guys pulled above their regulation minimums let alone had a working canopy above them by their personal hard decks. Tell me again who's going to enforce pull altitude.

Regulation needs to match the culture and guys making a high 'base' jump from a plane with a parachute rig aren't even thinking about that reg. Now we can wait for the old timers and base jumpers to chime in about what a pussy I am for riding those loads down and we'll all have a clear picture of the value of regulations that don't match the culture.

Some regulations are used capriciously when it's convenient to reign someone in. This is even advocated and planned by people proposing new regulations "don't worry it won't apply to you we'll only use it when we need to control a guy who does xyz, you'll be free to flout this one most weekends" If you can't live by the rules then don't pass them, or better yet pick a rule most can live by. If jumpers flout BRSs without any waiver then what's the point of them, it's meaningless window dressing.

In this context your question w.r.t. BSRs being abolished is only barely rhetorical.

[davelepka 4]

By your actions, you have shown how a BSR can be effective. You chose not to exit the plane at 1900ft., and we can only guess that you thought it was too low to exit.

Where did you get the idea that it was too low?

Whatever the answer is, it's related to the fact that the BSR's say 2000ft is the limit. Maybe you didn't contemplate the BSR in the plane, or ever for that matter, but you were taught, and you have witnessed, that 2000ft is as low as you want to go, and most jumpers you have seen also seem to agree with this.

Apply this to any regulation, and you'll see the same thing. Adding a new BSR will take some time to adapt to, but sooner or later, new jumpers will be taught to work within the BSR, and they will see most other jumpers doing the same.

You're a sheep, and you and the rest of the pack will go where ever the sheep herder tells you to (for the record, 99% of jumpers are also sheep, myself most likely included).

[kallend 2,026]

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By your actions, you have shown how a BSR can be effective. You chose not to exit the plane at 1900ft., and we can only guess that you thought it was too low to exit.

Where did you get the idea that it was too low?

Whatever the answer is, it's related to the fact that the BSR's say 2000ft is the limit. Maybe you didn't contemplate the BSR in the plane, or ever for that matter, but you were taught, and you have witnessed, that 2000ft is as low as you want to go, and most jumpers you have seen also seem to agree with this.

Apply this to any regulation, and you'll see the same thing. Adding a new BSR will take some time to adapt to, but sooner or later, new jumpers will be taught to work within the BSR, and they will see most other jumpers doing the same.

You're a sheep, and you and the rest of the pack will go where ever the sheep herder tells you to (for the record, 99% of jumpers are also sheep, myself most likely included).

I was under the impression that conventional wisdom among old-timers was that anyone trained by AFF wouldn't get out below 5,000ft. Nothing to do with the BSRs.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.