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[mattjw916 2]

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I was under the impression that conventional wisdom among old-timers was that anyone trained by AFF wouldn't get out below 5,000ft. Nothing to do with the BSRs.

You can't be serious? Hop and pops rock!

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[mjosparky 4]

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So how is someone's container opening altitude determined in enforcing this rule? Radar altimeter with data recorder?

Not hard to guage what altitude someone deploys at. Watch enough deployments and you'll get good at it.

Is it your opinion that the BSR's should be done away with?

It's not hard to guage when they exit below their minimum either. I've been on hop n' pop runs where almost the entire load got out at 1900ft and had a great laugh about it watching the video when they got down. One guy even did a half a dozen barrel rolls on exit. Maybe he had an E license.

I rode the plane down with one or two other jumpers (none of us because of a regulation).

No points for guessing how many of those guys pulled above their regulation minimums let alone had a working canopy above them by their personal hard decks. Tell me again who's going to enforce pull altitude.

Regulation needs to match the culture and guys making a high 'base' jump from a plane with a parachute rig aren't even thinking about that reg. Now we can wait for the old timers and base jumpers to chime in about what a pussy I am for riding those loads down and we'll all have a clear picture of the value of regulations that don't match the culture.

Some regulations are used capriciously when it's convenient to reign someone in. This is even advocated and planned by people proposing new regulations "don't worry it won't apply to you we'll only use it when we need to control a guy who does xyz, you'll be free to flout this one most weekends" If you can't live by the rules then don't pass them, or better yet pick a rule most can live by. If jumpers flout BRSs without any waiver then what's the point of them, it's meaningless window dressing.

In this context your question w.r.t. BSRs being abolished is only barely rhetorical.

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My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[dorbie 0]

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By your actions, you have shown how a BSR can be effective. You chose not to exit the plane at 1900ft., and we can only guess that you thought it was too low to exit.

Where did you get the idea that it was too low?

Whatever the answer is, it's related to the fact that the BSR's say 2000ft is the limit. Maybe you didn't contemplate the BSR in the plane, or ever for that matter, but you were taught, and you have witnessed, that 2000ft is as low as you want to go, and most jumpers you have seen also seem to agree with this.

Apply this to any regulation, and you'll see the same thing. Adding a new BSR will take some time to adapt to, but sooner or later, new jumpers will be taught to work within the BSR, and they will see most other jumpers doing the same.

You're a sheep, and you and the rest of the pack will go where ever the sheep herder tells you to (for the record, 99% of jumpers are also sheep, myself most likely included).

Wrong, you read exactly what you wanted into my post to arrive at an unsupportable conclusion. If I'd gotten out of the plane through peer pressure then I'd have been a sheep.

My decision not to exit was based on the fact that it's frigging insane to exit below or near what my preconceived notion of where my hard deck is based on my comfort level w.r.t. executing EPs under non ideal circumstances, add to that my occasionally snivelly canopy (especially on hop & pops) and I didn't want my first cutaway decision to be made as I snivelled through 1000. Where's my hard deck? Should I change my contingencies just because I exited lower, that's nuts. Jumping out & pulling silver would equally dumb but virtually guaranteed for any reasonable hard deck (that I'm comfortable with) and my canopy even with the forward motion of the plane. Jumping ain't about paring away your margin of error until you have none left (at least for me YMMV).

Your post is absolutly typical of the BSR irrationality that's out there. Any sign that a regulation that's routinely flouted, unenforcable and never enforced had any impact despite evidence and testimony to the contrary is seized upon as a success story. Facts BAD, BSR GOOD, ugh.

But yea all those smart jumpers riding the load down are just slaves to the BSRs. Afterall nobody's ever died for the want of altitude executing their EPs, only a fool would entertain the thought that you might need the extra altitude, mains are so reliable afterall.

[dorbie 0]

Sparkey,

Old Chinese saying; "When the finger points at the moon the fool points at the finger."

[davelepka 4]

You're suporting my point again. All of your notions of a safe pull altitude are based on what you were taught and what you have seen in practice. Once upon a time, you had no jumps, and no thoughts of pull altitude. Then you took a FJC, and got an idea. Then you proceeded on, and got a license, and when given your choice from 2000ft up to a clear and pull, you made additional choices based upon your onw judgement, which was derived from your existing knowledge, and any research you did.

So your canopy is snivley? It was designed to be used in a world where 2000ft was the min. pack opneing altitude. In a world where there is no min. pack opening altitude, canopies are made differently (as in BASE gear).

The manufacturers had 2000ft in mind when they designed a canopy that takes 800ft to open. They also had jumper skill in mind when they designed higher performance canopies. Not enough people are paying attention to the jumper skill required to jump those canopies, but almost everyone, you included, seems to respect the min. opening altitude the canopy was designed for. I wonder why?

There were more deaths/incidents due to mis-use of open canopies than to low/no pulls. I wonder why?


Just face it, things are changing in canopy land, and things need to change in BSR land to keep the balance. Yes, education is also key, feel free to search my posts for the million comments I've made on that subject.

In truth, that all I really care about. If people could all land their open and functioning canopies safely, on every jump, that would be enough for me. This is a risky sport for sure, and lots of shit can go wrong, but when the parachute opens properly, and it's a lack of education and poor canopy selection that creates an incident, that's rediculous.

[dorbie 0]

You're right that I decided not to exit that plane because of my training, tempered with what little experience I have. It's difficult to see where anyone would be with alternative training and no minimums, but at some point you know what your canopy does and you've been at 1k or 1.5k over the DZ and you think holy shit I'd hate to chop here and you adjust your numbers accordingly. A high speed mal with 5 seconds to live and a compromised notion of hard deck is not a situation I want to get myself in if I can help it. I pretty much agree with everything you've written in your post, although I wouldn't have exited without another few hundred feet (just me).

[mjosparky 4]

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Sparkey,

Old Chinese saying; "When the finger points at the moon the fool points at the finger."

Are you saying you are an old Chinese or just a fool pointing from the darkness.

OH, and its spelled Sparky, not Sparkey!

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[kallend 2,026]

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I was under the impression that conventional wisdom among old-timers was that anyone trained by AFF wouldn't get out below 5,000ft. Nothing to do with the BSRs.

You can't be serious? Hop and pops rock!

I'm not making it up. Take a look at this thread, for example www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=543816#543816

and this:www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=768341#768341

and this:www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=786910#786910

(plenty more like it if you search).

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[mattjw916 2]

Yes, I have been witness to days that we had to shutdown a King Air since no one (read as AFF grads) would get out "low" and we were forced to *gasps* jump out of the 206. Personally I like breaking up the monotony and try to get in a few dedicated canopy H&Ps from time to time, I probably have ~30 "low" jumps. To me, a jump is a jump, if I can only get a few grand, so be it...

It is a shame that (many but not all) "new generation" AFF/tandem progression students are skeered of getting out "low". Personally I don't think 4k is low, hell I could chunk a decent 2 or 4 way from there and still get a couple of points in. Although I don't think I'll ever attempt a "vulture" though, at least not for a while. (Credit to Ron for that brilliant idea. )

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[billvon 2,990]

>You can't be serious?

Years ago a DC-3 at Perris had engine trouble at about 4000 feet. The pilot made one pass over the DZ so people could bail if they wanted, then he planned to land on the remaining engine. Several people did not get out. They were AFF grads and thought 4000 feet was a bit low to be exiting. They thought it was safer to land in an aircraft with one working engine than to exit the plane at such a low altitude.

Plane landed fine with no problems.

[mattjw916 2]

Well, I would have been gone without even a second thought. Even us lowly AFF grads should know that from 4 grand you have at least 15 seconds to get your act together in freefall and get some fabric over your head before the chances of a 2-out start to increase rapidly (for those of us that have AADs).

I agree there is far too much emphasis on freefall skills in today's training and not enough canopy/aircraft spotting/emergency procedure (of the aircraft variety) instruction in general. I have seen people that were afraid to dive for their H&Ps since they are afraid of getting unstable at such a "low" altitude. My question for them is WTF are you going to do in the event of an emergency and there is no chance to climb out and do a poised exit?

Hell, none of these questions are really new ones though. As new as I am, I still shake my head at a lot of things I hear people say at DZs from time to time.

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[billvon 2,990]

> Even us lowly AFF grads should know that from 4 grand you have at least 15 seconds . . .

Right, but that's intellectual.

When I made my first BASE jump, I looked down and thought "no way is this high enough." It took me a good 15 seconds to make myself go - and that was after reading about it, learning to pack, getting some advice and traveling 600 miles to do it. Now, that was 700 feet; lowest I had jumped from at that point was 2000 feet. It was three times lower than anything I had jumped before. All my instincts were telling me it was too low, even though it was one of the higher BASE jumps around.

Now take an AFF grad who has never gotten out below 12,500 before. He is seeing the same sort of "way too low" picture at 4000 feet that I was seeing at 700. If it took me 15 seconds to make myself go after preparing for it for a week, what sort of decision is an AFF grad going to make when presented with the same picture, with no warning at all?

As you point out, it's really not a big deal. I think all AFF grads should make at least one sub-4000 foot jump as practice - that way they will not have that fear to overcome if they ever _do_ have to get out low.

[dorbie 0]

My first hop n' pop was from 3500 ft (at my request)soon after AFF. My first two attempts to pull I rolled. 3rd attempt I was probably touch & go with my student cypres.

It did look low but in stuffing up my signoff I realized you have a lot of time especially in that first 1k. That doesn't mean I'm going to use up most of my contingency before I get out the plane on any casual jump. That altitude is not for when things go right.

Anything wrong with the aircraft and the rules change for me. I'm getting out if I think I have time to pull silver. That's an intellectual decision not a visceral one but so was my AFF Level 1.

[Stumpy 284]

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It took me a good 15 seconds to make myself go

15 whole seconds?! When i get to that stage i'd be surprised if the first one takes any less than an hour!!!
Jumpin from a cliff - whuffo you wanna do that for!?

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[dorbie 0]

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Jumpin from a cliff - whuffo you wanna do that for!?

/\/\/\/, ditto.

[kelpdiver 2]

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As you point out, it's really not a big deal. I think all AFF grads should make at least one sub-4000 foot jump as practice - that way they will not have that fear to overcome if they ever _do_ have to get out low.

And they are...the 3500ft HnP. Or do you mean they should have to do it immediately after completing the AFF sequence, before self jumpmastering?

To me, 4000 is fine, 3500 is fine, 3000 or less is not something I'll manifest for. Elsinore sometimes has those loads when the clouds are in. If my decision alt is still 2500, why would I go out at 2800? Even at 4, there's not that much free altitude to play with, so what am I'm getting out of it? $5 at Lodi is one thing - some charge full rate.

[billvon 2,990]

>And they are...the 3500ft HnP.

Yes, but not all DZ's follow the ISP.

As a side note, we did hop and pops during weather holds at the bigway camp at Perris; we got between 2000 and 3800 feet. There were a lot of people who clearly hadn't done a lot of hop and pops on that load (some were saying things like "you gotta wait 10 seconds between exits!") and it was a good opportunity to get some low practice jumps in, at a DZ that usually doesn't do much in the way of low jumps. "Hop and pops" at Perris usually end up being from 5000 or so, as the plane is climbing.

[kelpdiver 2]

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>And they are...the 3500ft HnP.

Yes, but not all DZ's follow the ISP.

I don't follow. The 3500 HnP is an A license proficiency card requirement, irrespective of the ISP. The ISP adds a 'clear and pull' at 5500.

Exit and Freefall Skills: 5. Jump and deploy while stable within five seconds after exit from 3,500 ft AGL.

[billvon 2,990]

>I don't follow. The 3500 HnP is an A license proficiency card
>requirement, irrespective of the ISP.

Yes, and some DZ's both do not implement the ISP nor do they verify completion of all the requirements of the card.

"Hey, Joe Student, did you do all this stuff?"
"Yeah"
"OK, I'll just sign it all off."

[sfzombie13 324]

new rules are silly. making a rule that would be better would be something like "no turns of more than 90 degrees shall be made at an altitude of less than 200 feet". from what i read on fatalities historically, they have stayed consistently around 30-35 and have shifted to a majority of turning accidents. when i bought a rig i couldn't jump on student status, i went on a powered parachute ride over my house at about 5000 ft and hopped off. the pilot had agreed to drop me off after asking me a few questions and insisting that he had the call on whether the dz i'd chosen was suitable. i didn't have an altimeter, i counted to 5 and pulled. rules are a necessary evil we put up with, but to add more is assanine. ask any base jumpers about them.

_________________________________________
Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes

[kelpdiver 2]

[replyYes, and some DZ's both do not implement the ISP nor do they verify completion of all the requirements of the card.

"Hey, Joe Student, did you do all this stuff?"
"Yeah"
"OK, I'll just sign it all off."

[bob.dino 1]

At my DZ, the end of the AFF program is three consecutive hop n pops: 5000, 4000, and 3000ft, dispatched by an instructor.

Once you've converted onto sport gear, you do five solo conversion jumps, the last of which is a hop n pop, usually from about 2500.

Many folk then don't do another hop n pop for years at a time.

[kallend 2,026]

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[replyYes, and some DZ's both do not implement the ISP nor do they verify completion of all the requirements of the card.

"Hey, Joe Student, did you do all this stuff?"
"Yeah"
"OK, I'll just sign it all off."

ah...well, unfortunately, you can't address that problem by adding a rule that everyone needs to follow the rules.

Have you found many A's that got out of that particular requirement, though? I've no doubt that lots of the items are pencil whipped, esp in gear maintenence.

[skybytch 273]

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making a rule that would be better would be something like "no turns of more than 90 degrees shall be made at an altitude of less than 200 feet".

And that can be enforced how?

"Sorry Bob, you started a 180 at 100 feet, we have to ground you. Oh wait, you're dead. Never mind."

[bob.dino 1]

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"Sorry Bob, you started a 180 at 100 feet, we have to ground you. Oh wait, you're dead. Never mind."

It's a self-enforcing rule.