landing out

[GentleTiger 0]

Hi all,

sometimes I write and ask questions and people get into an uproar about things totally unrelated...they bicker about the smallest detail...it's kind of understandable, because it's the detail that can make or break us...but bickering about them just confuses low timers like me, so please be gentle.

I have a question, I'd like to find the general consensus, without us bickering please.

After tracking away from a 4-way, I opened way out and had an upwind attempt at getting back to the dz.

It's happened to me once before and I was told by an old timer that I should have used rear risers, instead of trying to find the best glide using the brakes.

In any case, the other day, when it happened again after tracking away from the 4-way, it was a very windy day. I used rear risers to try to get back, and at 700 feet or so, knew I wasn't even going to come close, so, I picked my spot and landed just fine, avoiding a ditch, a stream, a fence and wooden stakes. using rear risers, I was able to get past the buildings and into the grass.

when I got back to the dz (after rousing security of the place where I landed, and the dzo), I was welcomed back with big smiles and lots of pats on the back and hugs.

I was then advised by a couple of other people that I should have used nothing at all, brakes, or front risers. (using front risers seemed sort of moot, I wasn't trying to penetrate anything, I was going for distance).

So, what is the general consensus and thoughts of trying to get back to the dz, up wind? It seems using rear risers makes the most sense, but, as someone said at the dz, the more info I can get, the better.

I"ll appreciate all of your experiences and wisdom.

Thanx!

bbs,
Tiger

________________________________________
Look, up in the sky! It's a bird! It's a plane! It's a tiger in the sky!! Throw down some steaks and run for the hills!!!

[billvon 3,006]

When downwind and trying to fly back upwind, generally it is better to do nothing. Kill your slider and pull it down, loosen your chest strap and pull your knees up - it will _slightly_ increase your horizontal speed, and that may help.

If you are backing up, front risers may help. It won't make you go much faster but it will get you on the ground sooner, and that will keep you from backing up as much.

If you are upwind and have a lot of distance to cover, brakes are generally going to be your best bet. Moderate brakes will make you float, and the longer you're up, the farther the wind will push you back.

If there's no wind, often _spreading_ your rear risers will help. It will flatten your canopy and allow a bit more glide. It works well on my canopy (a Nitro 108.) Larger canopies will show less effect. Also kill slider etc.

[TALONSKY 0]

IMHO every canopy has an angle of attack. The wing is tipped so that the leading edge is lower then the trailing edge by pulling on the rear risers you can take that attack angle out so it has more of a flat glide. Now it is my understanding that some canopies glide better using toggle verse rear risers. This only would apply if your upwind of the DZ.

I would also suggest that you pick an altitude that is your cut off point to making it be to the DZ. It sounds to me that the 700 AGL is a bit low to be making that call. I personally would be making that call closer to 1500 AGL.
Kirk

[JohnRich 4]

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It sounds to me that the 700 AGL is a bit low to be making that call. I personally would be making that call closer to 1500 AGL.

I think the decision point would depend not on altitude alone, but also upon the availability of alternative landing sites.

If there is a wide variety of safe alternative landing spots along your flight path, you could pretty much make your decision at any time, even down to 300 feet or so. On the other hand, if you've got nothing but a half mile of high forest between you and the airport, the decision point might be as soon as you open your parachute.

[TALONSKY 0]

Very true.

[Reginald 0]

Running with the wind there is some debate about how to get more distance. It is canopy dependent. However, on most canopies the general consensus is deep brakes. Float as long as you can and let the wind carry you. I converted from rear risers to deep brakes after learning that Scott Miller recommends this method (for most canopies) and it works best for me. Also, I know the stall point of my canopy on brakes better than I do rear risers. ;-) Finally, I discovered that latching my thumbs in my hip rings lets me hold the deep brakes fairly easily.

Which is better? They both work, just try and experiment and find which is better for you on your canopy at your wing loading.

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[MrBrant 0]

Would the choice in technique (brakes, risers, nothing, etc) be any differnt with a 7-cell vs. a nine?

[johnny1488 1]

I don't know about 7 cell vs nine, but it's pretty much different for every canopy.

You really need to spend some time up top playing around to see what gives you the best result in every situation.

That being said all my canopies (Icarus canopies) do best in rear risers.

Scott Miller has told me every PD canopy he has jumped has done best in 3/4 brakes.

Each canopy is definetly different.

Johnny
--"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!"
Mike Rome

[happythoughts 0]

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I picked my spot and landed just fine

Excellent choice.
I was told by my canopy designer to release my brakes and spread the rear risers, but I jump a Samurai, so that advice won't apply to you.

[ryoder 1,590]

In short, listen to BillVon. And one more piece of advice:
If you ever find you can't make it back, and you must choose between a field with a herd of cows, and a field with just one cow, don't take the latter option; There is a reason that "cow" is by himself.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[tdog 0]

Tiger,

Ask Jason about this issue next time you are at the DZ... We just covered this issue in the last weekend's canopy class... This question seems to be canopy dependent, both in make/model and wingloading - so a hop-n-pop where you try different methods might be of order. I have had good luck with spreading my rears a few inches before on my canopy.

I am still trying to understand my canopy too... Back in the day when I learned Paragliding - my paraglider had two "settings" you could fly in to combat this issue... "Best Glide" and "Min Sink"... If a good wind is behind ya, you want "Min Sink" - so you get the longest push from mother nature... If you are pushing into the wind and still have some penetration, "Best Glide (ratio)" would take you the farthest distance for every foot of downward motion.

I still am trying to learn these little tricks on my canopy, but as someone else said, it is better to land out using no "tricks" than crash almost in because a "trick failed."

Good luck with learning... I will be doing hop-n-pops Sunday just to play with my canopy to fine tune these skills too...

[bseriesboosted 0]

I don't know about canopies because i'm a very low timer but you shouldn't let anyone tell you that you were wrong because you done something wrong and landed out... i have 4 outlandings in 52 jumps and i have learned that i can use the accuracy trick to see if i'm going to make it or not i use this with a combination of all these tricks and if i am the slightest bit unsure, i'm goin for the out. because i am not that big on landing in a tree

fortunately i am blessed to jump at a dz with many many outs

Pruitt

Skydive The Farm

[FrogNog 1]

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Running with the wind there is some debate about how to get more distance.

The poster's question was not about running with the wind, it was about fighting it to get upwind.

Using brakes or holding rear risers can help the canopy fly with less or more descent per horizontal unit of air covered, but descend less per unit of time covered. When you are upwind of the target, "flying flatter" or "descending slower" or a combination of both helps you get back by keeping you in the air longer; if the new, longer time you spend in the air multiplied by your new groundspeed is larger than the time you would have spent in the air and your old groundspeed, you will fly further.

In any wind, brakes keep you in the air longer but they reduce your forward airspeed. When you are downwind of the target, your groundspeed is low because it is your airspeed minus the wind speed. If you use brakes you will stay in the air longer but your already low groundspeed will become lower or even go negative. Whether this means you will end up landing closer to or further from the target has to do with the ratio of the ratio [sic] of your original groundspeed to your new groundspeed and your original time in the air to your new time in the air.

You could draw some pictures and do some algebra with some theoretical numbers (even if they don't match a real canopy, if they are within a theoretically realistic envelope they should give you meaningful theoretical results), or you can experiment on your own once you know how to tell where you "were going to land", or you can listen to people like Billvon who have a hojillion jumps and some other things to recommend them and their advice.

With the ratio math I could probably come up with a rule of thumb for whether you should use some brakes to try and fly upwind to the landing area, but it would require you to accurately know forward airspeed and descent speeds for your canopy in at least two brake settings (e.g. no brakes and 1/4 brakes) and accurately know the wind speed. I would call that practically impossible and therefore useless.

-=-=-=-=-
Pull.

[Orange1 0]

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And one more piece of advice: If you ever find you can't make it back, and you must choose between a field with a herd of cows, and a field with just one cow, don't take the latter option; There is a reason that "cow" is by himself.

Somewhat off the main thread, but is it true (as i've been told) that if you do end up landing in a field with cows, the cows will tend to run away as you come down, ie you don't really need to worry that you'll crash into one?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[hookitt 1]

I have it on good authority that cows do not always move when you land in or near the grazing herd. Fields with cows are usually big so take the emptier part of the field. After you land, they may think you're going to feed them hay and will walk toward you. Don't be alarmed, just walk away.

If you decide to swoop a cow, that cow may become spooked, turn around and run across your flight path. That in turn will force you to cram on the brakes, fly over them, and PLF on the other side.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[mnealtx 0]

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I have it on good authority that cows do not always move when you land in or near the grazing herd. Fields with cows are usually big so take the emptier part of the field. After you land, they may think you're going to feed them hay and will walk toward you. Don't be alarmed, just walk away.

If you decide to swoop a cow, that cow may become spooked, turn around and run across your flight path. That in turn will force you to cram on the brakes, fly over them, and PLF on the other side.

That sounds oddly like the voice of experience....

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[RkyMtnHigh 0]

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Tiger,

Ask Jason about this issue next time you are at the DZ... We just covered this issue in the last weekend's canopy class... This question seems to be canopy dependent, both in make/model and wingloading - so a hop-n-pop where you try different methods might be of order. I have had good luck with spreading my rears a few inches before on my canopy.

I am still trying to understand my canopy too... Back in the day when I learned Paragliding - my paraglider had two "settings" you could fly in to combat this issue... "Best Glide" and "Min Sink"... If a good wind is behind ya, you want "Min Sink" - so you get the longest push from mother nature... If you are pushing into the wind and still have some penetration, "Best Glide (ratio)" would take you the farthest distance for every foot of downward motion.

I still am trying to learn these little tricks on my canopy, but as someone else said, it is better to land out using no "tricks" than crash almost in because a "trick failed."

Good luck with learning... I will be doing hop-n-pops Sunday just to play with my canopy to fine tune these skills too...

Is Tolliver still there at MileHi? If so, yeah...I'd talk to him too Tiger. dammit girl you've had your share of shit since you started this sport. Wish I could be there in person to give you a big RkyMtnHigh HUG....

As far as "long spots" or cross country...I was comfortable on my Sab2 190 and now the 170...to rear riser and pull my knees up and I make it back just fine. Landing "out" is actually fun/challenging/kuhl...I always chose my alternate landing area and am very comfortable about "sinking it in" between trees if I need to. I remember talks about you downsizing even when I was there....don't you freakin downsize until you can place that canopy on a dime in someone's backyard. I only say this cuz I love ya and don't want anything more to happen to you than you've already gone thru.... PM or call me anytime...your experiences early on are great teachers.

_________________________________________

[phoenixlpr 0]

It`s not just fun. I`d like to have a hot air balloon jump in the summer. AFAK I have to pick my landing area mid-air, jump out and land there. I`m looking forward to that challenge.

[Orange1 0]

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If you decide to swoop a cow, that cow may become spooked, turn around and run across your flight path. That in turn will force you to cram on the brakes, fly over them, and PLF on the other side.

lol um - look at my jump numbers, i'm not gonna be swooping anything anytime soon, much less a cow during an off-landing

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After you land, they may think you're going to feed them hay and will walk toward you. Don't be alarmed, just walk away.

I now have visions of arguing with a cow that this big pink silky thing in my arms is actually not cowfood...

[makes mental note to confront instructor who told me not to worry about outlandings in the fields when the cows are grazing]

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Reginald 0]

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Running with the wind there is some debate about how to get more distance.

The poster's question was not about running with the wind, it was about fighting it to get upwind.

Hmm, now that I reread it it is less and less clear what direction she was tyring to go.

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[tdog 0]

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It`s not just fun. I`d like to have a hot air balloon jump in the summer. AFAK I have to pick my landing area mid-air, jump out and land there. I`m looking forward to that challenge.

Ya... I did my pre-second hot air balloon jump reciently... I SO wanted to land on the golf course we were over, talk about nice "runways"... The more experienced guys could have swooped the water traps on the course... But we opted for the nice farm land next to it... Learned that landing "out" when there is no "in" is kind of fun...

[dragon2 2]

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And one more piece of advice: If you ever find you can't make it back, and you must choose between a field with a herd of cows, and a field with just one cow, don't take the latter option; There is a reason that "cow" is by himself.

Somewhat off the main thread, but is it true (as i've been told) that if you do end up landing in a field with cows, the cows will tend to run away as you come down, ie you don't really need to worry that you'll crash into one?

We had a military guy land ON TOP of a cow. I haven't asked it why it didn't ran away

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[dragon2 2]

Some cow swooping by Martijn van Dam at my DZ:
http://www.skydivingmovies.com/ver2/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=606
Or go to http://www.martijnvandam.nl/ - videos - cowswooping.

Njoy

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[GentleTiger 0]

Wow, thanx everyone, I think Billvon's advice was outstanding...there's a proper response for each situation, and that response depends on the situation...Thanks Katee...I know I've had my "ups and downs" in this sport, but I'm always learning and having a great time...landing out was a wonderful challenge, and I LOVE obstacle avoidance.

And thanx to the rest of you for such wonderful comments...I"m going to open high and play as soon as it stops raining.

A quick story about cows: I used to live in Montana, deep in the Cabinet Mountains. There was a herd of cows that kept overstepping the road barriers that were placed there to keep the cows IN. So, when I'd see them coming down my driveway, before they'd get to my horses, I'd go out there, blow a few rounds of my 9mm into the air, and they would turn tail and go.

Except one time. They got real pissed and stampeded. Towards me. My eyes got REAL BIG and I turned tail and ran!! I had no idea I could go so fast!! Everything turned out okay, and the rancher moved his cows.



bbse1 and thanx again!!
Tiger

________________________________________
Look, up in the sky! It's a bird! It's a plane! It's a tiger in the sky!! Throw down some steaks and run for the hills!!!

[davelepka 4]

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After tracking away from a 4-way, I opened way out and had an upwind attempt at getting back to the dz.

I take this to mean that you were downwind of the DZ when you opened.

If that is the case, then you want to use very little, if any input of any kind. Your canopy needs to cut through the wind as effectively as possible, and generally speaking, adding control inputs will add drag, which isn't your friend when you're downwind.

The bigger consideration, however, is your 700 ft decision altitude to land off. Within a short time after opening, you should have found the DZ, and begun to head that way. Your forward progress should have made it obvious to you that you were not going to make it back. Determining your landing area much earlier in your canopy ride will go a long way to keeping you safe in the future.

Additionally, when you are downwind of the DZ, keep in mind that you are upwind of the rest of the world. Looking a the options between you and the DZ, all of them involve flying into the wind to reach them. If the wind should increase, you may not even make your alternate landing area. By simply turing your canopy 180, you will have many more options to choose from,as you are upwind of all of them, and have the wind to help you reach your destination.

Remember that open canopy incidents are the #1 problem in skydiving today. Having a plan in place before you jump (which includes stratagies for bad spots, as well as off field landigns) is essential to keeping you safe.