AAD's & Personal Acceptable Risk Thresholds

[hookitt 1]

Personally I do the jump because hitting me, even if you cork directly under me is highly unlikely.

Freefly coaching new freeflyers without an AAD is pretty silly if you ask me. If two coaches have the the exact same flying skill, one has an AAD and one doesn't, I think the person more at risk, is the person willing to take more chances. The person without the AAD is the person willing to take more risk.

I currently don't have an AAD. On a one on one basis, I am willing to jump with anybody. That means I'm willing to take more risk.

Not sure how that makes me a safer skydiver.

================

This is the thread that never ends.
It goes on and on my friends.
Someone started writing it not knowing what it was,
and they'll continue writing it forever just because
This is the thread that never ends.
It goes on and on my friends.
Someone started writing it not knowing what it was,
and they'll continue writing it forever just because
This is the thread that never ends.
It goes on and on my friends.
Someone started writing it not knowing what it was,
and they'll continue writing it forever just because...

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[Ron 10]

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As I said, sitting out any skydive is safer than participating in any skydive

Yep.

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Choosing to use a cypres does NOT indicate that someone doesn't accept the risk of participating in that skydive

Nope. But only doing that jump if you have a CYPRES does indicate that you are dependant on the AAD. It also shows that while you see the dive in question as dangerous, you are willing to risk that danger by depending on a device....And that using your brain will allow you to avoid using an AAD..

And not going on a dive that you feel you need an AAD IS safer than just going with it since you have one.

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We've heard from multiple AFF instructors that choose to use cypreses for AFF. At my DZ, AADs are mandatory for AFF instructors and coaches. Theres a reason for both of those facts. Why are you better suited to doing AFF than one of those instructors?

Where did I say I was?

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Your risk tolerance is higher and that means... ummm... hmmm. What does it mean? Here's what we know. You aren't necessarily safer, you aren't necessarily a better instructor, you aren't necessarily more experienced, you aren't necessarily a nicer guy, you aren't necessarily better looking, you aren't necessarily ANY BETER SUITED TO INSTRUCT. You're simply a guy willing to take higher risks. And that's a GOOD thing for an AFF instructor???

Who is taking the higher risk:
The guy that will not do a jump he sees as dangerous, or the guy that will since he has an AAD?

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Some jumps ARE more dangerous than others and those that will do them without a cypres FULLY accept the risk of that jump

they would be "safer" if they didn't do the jump instead of just straping an AAD on.

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Are you helmet dependent? Should AFF instructors be willing to make any AFF jump without a helmet (or not make that jump at all)?

Sure. But the SAFEST Instructors will only do jumps they feel safe on, and then ADD a helmet and an AAD. They will not go with a questionable jump just because they have a helmet and AAD.

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You can always tell how dangerous a stranger will be in the air? Would you jump with a complete stranger? Would you jump with a complete stranger and not wear an AAD? Unless you CAN tell how dangerous he'll be, why would you assume he'll be safe in the air?

Look this is really simple. We have statements that some will not jump on certain jumps without an AAD...But will with one. They state that the risk is to great without an AAD.

Do you think an AAD makes a skydive safer? It does not. It only reduces the chance of the ONE WEARING IT from dying...And even then not 100%. The others on the questionable jump AAD are risked greater due to you going.

If you go on a jump that you don't feel safe just cause you have an AAD...you ARE DEPENDANT...thats not a question, it is a matter of logic.

Debate it all you want. If you allow yourself to do more dangerous jumps because you have an AAD you ARE dependant.

You are also not SAFER from accident. In fact, but going on more dangerous jumps that you would normally do...You are in MORE danger of an accident.

Use your brain to decide what is a safe jump basied on not having an AAD...THEN add one to make the jump safer.

ADDING an AAD does not reduce the risk of a jump. It just means that you MIGHT survive...The risk of an ACCIDENT MAY IN FACT BE HIGHER.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

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I agree... these people infuriate me!! But to blanket the entire skydiving community saying they a dependent if they won't do a certain skydive without a cypres, I disagree with. After reading all the posts I guess I can see why you think that the cypres affects my decisions... I see it as:

Jump---risk factor---my ability---comfortable with the jump?-yes---cypres as back-up.

I think other people on the thread see my views as:
Jump---risk factor---ablility---cypres--"makes" me comforable.

If you add an AAD as a true backup...Then you are clearly not dependant...Also your hundereds of jumps without one shows that as well.

My beef is people who do more dangerous stuff since they have one.....They are more dangerous.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[pilotdave 0]

I think you totally missed my point. You're an AFF instructor right? You're telling other AFF instructors that they should quit because they're AAD dependent. No you've never used the word "quit" but you've said they'd be safer not doing those jumps they require an AAD for... ie AFF.

So we have 2 instructors and a given, 100% average student. Both of you are equally comfortable with the student. You'll do the jump without an AAD and the other instructor will not. Therefore he should not do AFF, right? That means you feel you are better suited to doing AFF jumps because you are willing to do them without an AAD. HE'S the one that's going to sit the jump out if his AAD doesn't work. You're the one that's going to do it either way. You are the one willing to take a greater risk. That's precisely why you believe you are better suited to doing AFF in the first place, and the guy that requires an AAD should sit out AFF jumps.

Have I said anything you don't agree with?

Dave

[Ron 10]

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I think you totally missed my point

No, I think you have.

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You're an AFF instructor right?

Correct.

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You're telling other AFF instructors that they should quit because they're AAD dependent. No you've never used the word "quit" but you've said they'd be safer not doing those jumps they require an AAD for... ie AFF.

You yourself said I never told them to quit....So where did you get that?

I said that if you MUST have an AAD, then you should really think about if that jump should be done at all. Adding an AAD does not reduce the chance of an accident. It MAY (hell, most likley will) reduce the chance of you dying...But It WILL NOT do anything to reduce the risk...Using your brain to say "No" to a questionable jump WILL.

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So we have 2 instructors and a given, 100% average student. Both of you are equally comfortable with the student.

OK.

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You'll do the jump without an AAD and the other instructor will not. Therefore he should not do AFF, right?

He should really think about if he is willing to take the added risk of doing an AFF jump. Just because he added an AAD does not make the risk of an accident any less.

Do you admit that adding an AAD does NOT reduce the chance of an accident?

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That means you feel you are better suited to doing AFF jumps because you are willing to do them without an AAD.

*Suited*? No. But, adding an AAD does not reduce the chances that something could go wrong any more than adding airbags makes you a better driver.

If I don't feel the jump is safe without an AAD, it is not safe with one. Shit still can happen even if you had 5 AAD's on your rig.

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HE'S the one that's going to sit the jump out if his AAD doesn't work. You're the one that's going to do it either way. You are the one willing to take a greater risk

If he would do the jump only if his AAD works he is clearly dependant on it. And he should rethink the jump. An AAD is NOT magical, and even if it works it may still not save you.

If I feel the jump is too dangerous to do...I don't do the jump with or without an AAD. Who is safer:

The guy who goes ahead and does a jump he is unsure of because he has an AAD, or he guy that does not jump if he feels unsafe with the conditions?

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That's precisely why you believe you are better suited to doing AFF in the first place

Again find one place where I said I was better.

I think the guy that needs an AAD to do a jump should rethink doing that jump at all. He is putting a great deal of trust into a device that will not reduce the risk of something bad happening.

An AAD does not reduce the chance of an accident.

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Have I said anything you don't agree with?

Yep...but I dont think you will ever really understand it.

Do you think an AAD makes a dangerous skydive safer?

It does not. It *might* make it survivable, but it does not make it safer.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[kallend 2,027]

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Once upon a time I did a bunch of 10-way speed jumps without a CYPRES, using a borrowed rig (since mine was not available). I have since decided that was pretty stupid, given the nature of 10-way speed, and now I won't do it without a CYPRES. Did I suddenly become a less safe or less skilled skydiver because of this? If so, explain how.

Yes. You are doing something that you feel has more risk than benefit (rsik benefit ratio) because you have an AAD. You are depending on that AAD to reduce the risk of the 1-way speed dives to lower the risk/benefit ratio back below your limit. By depending on the AAD you are, by definition, device dependant.

If the AAD was, unbeknownst to you, non-functional, you would be doing a jump that is beyond your risk/benefit ratio. You are depending on it to function.

Derek

I depend on lots of things to function that do not have 100% reliability. Every day. So do you. So does Ron. Your point is irrelevant.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,027]

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Do you think an AAD makes a skydive safer? It does not. It only reduces the chance of the ONE WEARING IT from dying...And even then not 100%. The others on the questionable jump AAD are risked greater due to you going.

So you now say reducing the risk of dying does not make the skydive safer. I'm afraid your idea of safety does not coincide with any rational definition. You are being ridiculous.

Others on the jump must make their own decisions if they want to jump with me, that's not my choice to make.

John Faulkner was willing to coach a newbie freeflier without an AAD. John was a highly competent coach and now he is dead. Tell me how his willingness to do this made him safer.

IMO being willing to do a high risk jump without availing yourself of every safety advantage is evidence of piss poor judgment.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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I depend on lots of things to function that do not have 100% reliability. Every day. So do you. So does Ron. Your point is irrelevant.

I don't depend on back up devices because then they wouldn't be a back up. That is the difference.

Derek

[kallend 2,027]

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I depend on lots of things to function that do not have 100% reliability. Every day. So do you. So does Ron. Your point is irrelevant.

I don't depend on back up devices because then they wouldn't be a back up. That is the difference.

Derek

Reserves have failed too, you know. Ever had a reserve ride? Ever had to use the spare wheel on your car?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kelpdiver 2]

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You yourself said I never told them to quit....So where did you get that?

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If he would do the jump only if his AAD works he is clearly dependant on it. And he should rethink the jump. An AAD is NOT magical, and even if it works it may still not save you.

Sure sounds like you're saying he should quit being an AFF instructor, Ron.

[divnswoop 0]

Alright, let's see if I can do this. What I've figured out from this thread:

There are at least three types of device dependent jumpers.

1. Jumpers who are willing to jump beyond their ability/normal acceptable risk level/ just because they have an AAD on their back. ( I would call them AAD reliant) They rely on their AAD to save them because they intentionally put themselves on a jump that was over their head. Most of us have seen/heard jumpers like this, and most of us on this thread agree they are dangerous.

2. Jumpers who weigh their acceptable risk, their abilities, the jump at hand and determine they are capable of the skydive. Because of past incidents(freefall collisions, possible nasty aff, being hit from behind by a jumper/cameraman, flying with newbie freeflyers, being hit by a plane or meteor) they decide that it is an intelligent thing to have a backup device incase something like this would happen. We'll call this device dependent also.(by definition...I think it sounds negative, but see the argument in it.)>

3. Jumpers who think they need nothing more than a harness and a single canopy to bring them down.(still device dependent)

Now, there are an infinite amount of skydives that result in at least some type of risk.

1.The safest: Living at least 100 miles from the nearest dz and not ever jumping.

.......down to.....

9999999. Jumping on a 100 way formation load where nobody has ever made a skydive.

Now we all fall somewhere in between this.

A group here has the opinion that when they go on this next jump they:
Are qualified, capable, and feel the jump is within their acceptable risk levels......and then they choose to do the jumps with a cypres/helmet/altimeter/goggles because they feel it's an intelligent thing to have when they jump. They don't feel it makes the skydive "safer". Just like the idea of having the gear "in case"

Another group sees the last part of that and thinks they are ALL device dependent("which they are") BUT that doesn't necessarily put them in the first group of people above. They didn't make their decision on the backup gear...they ADDED it as a backup only after they thought they were within their limits. There IS a difference between the two even if you can say a blanket statement like, I won't do this jump without..... I understand where people would think they are accepting risks because they won't do a jump without certain backups, but I don't feel that is the case in every scenario.

We all weigh the possible outcomes between 1 and 99999. And there are millions of variables and possible outcomes because of it.

so let's begin round 32!!!! ding ding!

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Reserves have failed too, you know.

Yep, I know. What does that have to do with you depending on a back up device?

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Ever had a reserve ride?

Yep, 14 of'em. Not one was because I skipped maintnence "Because that's what a reserve is for.", or packed poorly "Because that's what a reserve is for." or had a reserve ride because I didn't treat it like a back up only. I never depended on it. What does that have to do with you depending on a back up device?

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Ever had to use the spare wheel on your car?

No. And I wouldn't drive over something that I thought could puncture my tire just because I have a spare. What does that have to do with you depending on a back up device?

Your argument has gone from saying you are not device dependent on your AAD, to everyone depends on devices, not just you. Again, I never depended on a back up device, since that defeats the purpose of a back up device.

You should reconsider how you think about AAD's and doing skydives where you are depending on it to reduce the risk to an acceptable level.

Derek

[pilotdave 0]

What's the advantage of doing 10 way speedstar without an AAD? What's the advantage of doing 10 way speedstar with an AAD?

One IS safer than the other. Why are you RECOMMENDING the one that is less safe? What's that? You aren't recommeding 10 way speedstar without an AAD? Not the way I'm reading it. The way I see it, you're saying that if he won't do it without an AAD, he shouldn't do it with an AAD because that means it's too dangerous for him. Since he likes speedstar, the only way he'd be safe doing speedstar,, if he believes what you're saying, which obviously he doesn't, is to go do a speed star without an AAD.

I know you really just think he should stop doing speed stars because you know his risk tolerance better than he does, and you know what's safe for him. I'm sure he appreciates that you want to keep him safe, but I still see the whole argument you have as ridiculous.

Dave

[genitor 0]

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Yep, 14 of'em. Not one was because I skipped maintnence "Because that's what a reserve is for.", or packed poorly "Because that's what a reserve is for." or had a reserve ride because I didn't treat it like a back up only. I never depended on it. What does that have to do with you depending on a back up device?

So, when you cutaway from your main on your 14 reserve rides, you weren't depending on your reserve to work?

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Why are you RECOMMENDING the one that is less safe?

I'm not. I'm recommending not do to something that exceeds his risk/benefit ratio just because he has an AAD. That is safer than doing 10-way speed stars with an AAD.

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The way I see it, you're saying that if he won't do it without an AAD, he shouldn't do it with an AAD because that means it's too dangerous for him.

No, he said it was too dangerous for him, so he depends on an AAD to lower the risk. If it the chance of a collision and injury is too high without an AAD, then it is too high with an AAD. An AAD does not reduce the chances that you'll have a collision. an AA does not reduce the chance that a collision will result in an injury. The only thing it changes is to reduce the chances that a collision that renders you unable to deploy a parachute will kill you.

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I know you really just think he should stop doing speed stars because you know his risk tolerance better than he does

I don't know anything about his risk tolerance than he told me, "Once upon a time I did a bunch of 10-way speed jumps without a CYPRES, using a borrowed rig (since mine was not available). I have since decided that was pretty stupid, given the nature of 10-way speed, and now I won't do it without a CYPRES."

He is depending on the AAD to reduce his risk on 10-ways. Let me say that again, he is DEPENDING on an AAD to reduce his risk.

If you are depending on a device, it cannot be a back up device.

Derek

[Hooknswoop 19]

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So, when you cutaway from your main on your 14 reserve rides, you weren't depending on your reserve to work?

I was really hoping it would.

How is hoping a reserve will work after you cutaway being device dependant? I wasn't intgending to use it on the jump. I treated it like a back up on those 14 jumps, just like the other 3319 jumps,b ut on those 14, I needed a back up, my reserve. I couldn't forsee that I was going to need my reserve on those jumps and that is what a back up is for, unforseen circumstance where the primary fails.

Thi is about not treating AAD's like a back up device, using it to reduce risk below you risk/benefit ratio so you can make a dive that otherwise would exceed your risk/benefit ratio.

Derek

[pilotdave 0]

We've gone around in circles here enough times, but I think the point is you are absolutely dependent on your reserve. Otherwise I am sure you'd jump a different main and you'd pack it as carefully as a reserve or base canopy. You choose to jump a main with a much higher malfunction rate than a reserve or base canopy because you know you have a backup. Same scenario.

Dave

[Hooknswoop 19]

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We've gone around in circles here enough times, but I think the point is you are absolutely dependent on your reserve.

No, I'm not. If I was I wouldn't have given a crap about my main. I maintained and packed my main so that it would open. If it didn't, then I had a reserve as a back up.

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Otherwise I am sure you'd jump a different main and you'd pack it as carefully as a reserve or base canopy.

The main I jumped and how I packed it was below my risk/benefit ratio. I didn't do anything more dangerious because I had a reserve.

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You choose to jump a main with a much higher malfunction rate than a reserve or base canopy because you know you have a backup.

No, I chose the main I jumped because it was below my risk/benefit ratio, not because I had a reserve.

Derek

[genitor 0]

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How is hoping a reserve will work after you cutaway being device dependant?

I would say that the second you decided to cut away you became dependent on your reserve. If this were not the case, it seems like it would be a better idea to take your chances under a malfunctioning main. But that doesn't make sense, does it? I'm truly surprised to see this attitude regarding reserves.

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I wasn't intgending to use it on the jump. I treated it like a back up on those 14 jumps, just like the other 3319 jumps,b ut on those 14, I needed a back up, my reserve. I couldn't forsee that I was going to need my reserve on those jumps and that is what a back up is for, unforseen circumstance where the primary fails.

I think that's sort of the point I'm making, even though I'd be willing to admit that I AM dependent on my reserve (they drill that into you pretty well as a student). You did the best that you could NOT to need your reserve (you DID depend on it to save your life), but you still used it. I'm willing to bet that you were more than qualified to land your main.

Are you saying that you would have done nothing differently on any of your skydives if you didn't have a reserve, or knew that it wouldn't work? You would pack your tiny canopy in 5-10 minutes (I'm assuming that's what it took you, if that) the same exact way?

You could use the same absolute logic that is being applied to AADs to your main. Jumping a very small elliptical, you knew that your chances of a cutaway were higher than average. If you weren't willing to do a jump without your reserve, you shouldn't have done it at all.

If you say that you WERE willing to do the same exact skydives without a reserve, would it be fair to say that you would most likely be dead, or at least very severely injured? Is that what this is about, how willing you are to die because you don't want to be dependent on a backup device? That sounds incredibly foolish to me. I know that this is a risk/benefit thing, but I don't look at a skydive in regards to using just my main. I look at the whole system that I have attached to me (at least with my reserve).

I understand the basic idea that you (and Ron) are trying to convey. Jumpers shouldn't go on a jump that's over their ability just because they have an AAD. I believe I have never done that. I have denied to go on jumps numerous times because I felt they were above my current skill level. The fact that I have an AAD didn't enter into the equation. HOWEVER, I can totally understand an AFF instructor or freefly coach being unwilling to jump without an AAD, as long as having one does not in any way affect their ACTIONS on the skydive. These are (or should be) two unrelated things. The instructor wants to give himself his best chance for survival in the case something goes wrong. I'm sure he understands it does NOT make it invulernable. He's simply looking at the risk/benefit level calculating the RISK using his entire rig. The fact that he has a modern rig equipped with an AAD on it automatically reduces his risk compared to him using a rig that's 30+ years old with a belly mount reserve, etc. I'm pretty sure that's a statistical fact.

Also, how would an AFF instructor know that his student could be a problem? I've often heard that some of the best students on the ground are the worst in the air. The general attitude I'm reading from Ron (please correct me if I'm wrong) is that he is more willing to die if something unexpected should go wrong, so he's a better skydiver (BTW I'm sure Ron is 1000% better at skydiving than I am, so please don't take that as an attack in any way).

[Hooknswoop 19]

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I would say that the second you decided to cut away you became dependent on your reserve.

When something unforseen happens and you use a back up device, that is what it is for.

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I understand the basic idea that you (and Ron) are trying to convey. Jumpers shouldn't go on a jump that's over their ability just because they have an AAD.

Good. People keep trying to twists things and keep bringing up the same arguments again and again. I have to keep explaining the same concept again and again. It REALLY is as simple as you put it above. Some people aren't getting it though.

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HOWEVER, I can totally understand an AFF instructor or freefly coach being unwilling to jump without an AAD, as long as having one does not in any way affect their ACTIONS on the skydive. These are (or should be) two unrelated things.

I agree and have never said any different.

If someone says that a 100-way has more risk than benefit for them,but goes on a 100-way because they have an AAD, doesn't that defeat the concept of a back-up device?

Derek

[Hooknswoop 19]

Kallend won't do a 10-way speed dive w/o an AAD because of the risk of collision. Let's say that collision results in an injury, say a broken neck (I hope that never happens to anyone, including Kallend, just an example). An AAD may save his life, but he wills till have a broken neck. The AAD has not prevented the collision and broken neck. How does an AAD make him any safer from a collision that can result in an injury that would render you unable to deploy either parachute? It doesn't. Therefore, if the jump has too high of a chance for a collision (fails the risk/benefit test), and an AAD doesn't change that, why make the jump because you have an AAD? Is surviving all that matters?

How come I can;t find anyone that will drive two identical cars, one with airbags and one without any differently, but I can find people that will make a riskier jump because they have an AAD? What is the difference?

Derek

[Ron 10]

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So you now say reducing the risk of dying does not make the skydive safer. I'm afraid your idea of safety does not coincide with any rational definition. You are being ridiculous.

No, you are being obtuse.

An AAD does not make a skydiver safer. It will prevent a death MAYBE.

But the chance of an accident is the same. And if you use an AAD to go on dumber jumps....The chances will increase.

That is the opposite of safety.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[sundevil777 102]

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Kallend won't do a 10-way speed dive w/o an AAD because of the risk of collision.

I think that is wise.

I think that he would likely do the 10 way dives 13 years ago before the Cypres, without much thought about it being too dangerous. Now that we have ways to minimize risk in some areas, choosing to take advantage of it on every jump is wise. We would have done the riskier jumps 13 years ago because they were so fun despite the additional risk, which is not cmpatible with your claim of us being device dependant.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[Hooknswoop 19]

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I think that is wise.

I would agree IF he wasn't using the AAD to reduce risk in order for it to pass the risk/bebefit ratio test.

I think it is also wise to drive a car with airbags. I think it unwise to drive a car with airbags any riskier because of the airbags.

Would you think someone with 10 jumps doing a 300-way is wise because they are jumping with an AAD?

Again, doing something BECAUSE you have an airbag is different than just jumping an AAD as a back up.

Derek

[penniless 0]

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We've gone around in circles here enough times, but I think the point is you are absolutely dependent on your reserve.

No, I'm not. If I was I wouldn't have given a crap about my main. I maintained and packed my main so that it would open. If it didn't, then I had a reserve as a back up.

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Otherwise I am sure you'd jump a different main and you'd pack it as carefully as a reserve or base canopy.

The main I jumped and how I packed it was below my risk/benefit ratio. I didn't do anything more dangerious because I had a reserve.

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You choose to jump a main with a much higher malfunction rate than a reserve or base canopy because you know you have a backup.

No, I chose the main I jumped because it was below my risk/benefit ratio, not because I had a reserve.



Your argument is getting really silly, Hooknswoop. Calling someone that wants to use a proven safety device on a "high risk" jump LESS safe than someone who doesn't care if they use it or not, is absolutely ridiculous.

Are you a licensed psychologist? If not, then stop trying to analyze other peoples' motives for their jumping decisions. You can only change yourself.

As has been said already, deliberately jumping without an AAD on a skydive with higher than normal collision risk is not an indicator of safety, it is an indicator of poor judgment, and poor judgment makes for an unsafe situation in any branch of aviation.

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