AAD's & Personal Acceptable Risk Thresholds

[nicknitro71 0]

Let’s assume reserves were not mandatory (and in some countries they are not by the way. Also in some countries the use of an AAD is mandatory).

Jumping with a reserve is a good thing and everyone should have one even if local authorities don’t dictate the use.

* A reserve is a back up safety device. You should never rely on it. If you do rely on it and it fails, you are dead. There are a number of reasons why it may not work, some of which you have no way of knowing before the jump. A reserve should increase a jumper’s safety by being there for unseen problems and unavoidable incidents. It is not there to allow a jumper to make riskier skydives than they normally would.

* Each skydiver must honestly determine for themselves their acceptable risk threshold. How much risk is acceptable to you is a personal decision, make an informed and honest decision. How high of winds will you jump in? How big of a RW or free-fly jump will you do, etc. Set these limits and periodically review them as you gain experience abilities and possible how much risk you are willing to accept changes (more or less risk).

* If you determine, for example, that coach jumps with new free-flyers is too much risk, then do not coach new free-flyers. If you feel a 50-way RW jump is too big with too much risk, do not jump on 50-ways.

* A reserve does not reduce the chances of a main malfunction on the jump. It can save you if a malfunction does happen, but may not. It must function to have any chance of saving you and is a last ditch effort. The majority of reserve rides are from sloppy pack jobs, poor body positions, and the use of high performance main canopies that do not have the opening characteristics of low aspect ratio 7 cells and can spin very violently with just one line twist.

* No one likes to admit they are device dependant or are exceeding their own risk threshold because they have a reserve. If you fall into this category, be honest with yourself. Make an honest risk assessment and jump within your personal risk threshold. This means deciding whether to make the jump without using a reserve to off set risk level.

* My analogy:
If you feel running a red light is beyond your risk threshold because of the chances of a collision, airbags do not reduce the chances of a collision and therefore should not be a factor when determining if running a red light is within your risk threshold.

* How do you determine if you are using a reserve to exceed your personal risk threshold or just feel you should always jump with one because it is a good idea to have one? I know of no pass/fail test you can do to make that determination. You have to be honest with yourself and make an honest assessment of how much risk is acceptable and how much risks you are taking, leaving the reserve out of this determination. Do this the same way you would decide if running a red light is too risky or not without taking the airbags into account.

* Don’t ever fall into the trap of allowing a reserve to lull you into a false sense of safety. If your reserve ever enters into your decision making process for a jump, stop and really think about the jump.

* Refusing not to jump w/o a reserve is OK. They are great and you should jump with one. Using a reserve to exceed your personal acceptable risk threshold is not OK because it isn’t smart to use back up safety devices that may not work to justify doing something you feel is too risky.

* Determine your personal acceptable risk threshold and don't exceed it because you have a reserve.

Memento Audere Semper

903

[rhino 0]

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Just because you and Ron choose to evaluate your risk tolerance in one way does not entitle you to tell anyone else how to evaluate their risk tolerance.

Let me tell you something.. Derek's skill level and record allow him to tell you any damned thing he wants. Everything I learned about what to do and what not to do started with the safety training and planning I got from him.

He planned every detail of every jump. Knew aerodynamics like no one I have ever seen. That is partly why he can out track most people in a wing suit without one. He has a bazillion jumps on a VX60 loaded over 3:1 without incident. He has done test jumps that have benefited us all at his own risk time and time again putting his own ass on the line..

He is qualified and reserves the right..

What the hell have you done to tell him what he can't do?

Enlighten me please?

Whether you are intelligent enough to learn from him is your own prerogative.

Rhino

[Ron 10]

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Please. The AAD is there to be a backup in the case that someone can't deploy. You're claiming that that's always jumper error?

The majority ARE jumper error...Go to the Airtec site and read them for yourself.

You will see that most are jumper error with like 4-5 being someone knocked out.

Look th einfo up for yourself...Don't trust me or anyone else...Do your homework and you will see.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

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Just because you and Ron choose to evaluate your risk tolerance in one way does not entitle you to tell anyone else how to evaluate their risk tolerance.

So why should everyone follow yours?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[labrys 0]

The point I was making is that always and the majority are not the same thing.

Aren't the majority of mals also human error and don't we depend on the reserve as a backup?

In that light, I don't condiser the comparison of an AAD to a reserve "stupid"

Owned by Remi #?

[Hooknswoop 19]

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No, reading all these post really got me thinking. It bothers me now that for the past 9 years I wouldn't do AFF, camera work, tandems, freeflying, and large formations without a cypres. I always thought that I was capable and within my acceptable risks. Now I don't think so. I'm starting to realize that I AM device dependent and that's a terrible thing in this sport. I guess the positive side to this is that I have about $14,000 worth of gear I can sell and use while I find another job. Thanks for opening my eyes!!!

I don't understand this part.

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ps:NO decision in skydiving should be made JUST BECAUSE you have a cypres on your back. I think this sum's up about 2 pages worth.

This is exactly what I have been saying, we agree.

I am afraid that I cannot articulate what i am trying to say well enough and it is causing misunderstanding. That is why I keep trying to explain it, not to convince people my idea is right, but so that people will understand it. I apologize to everyone if I am not coming across this way. I have a gear tips list. Does everyone use them? No, and that is fine by me. I put the info out there, people will have to decide for themselves if it makes sense to them. I am honestly not trying to ram my idea down anyopne's throat, just trying to make it understood.

Derek

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Somehow you're better off on a 400 way because you'd do it without a cypres even though you think you're better off having a cypres?

No. You are better off if you do a 400-way because you feel the risks are acceptable, not because you feel a Cypres will off set the unacceptable risks.

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Risk acceptance is a personal decision. Just like kallend has said, each (experienced) jumper gets to choose whether he's trying to avoid the collision (by not going on the jump) or to survive the collision if it happens (by using a cypres). I TOTALLY agree that avoiding the collision is the BETTER option.

I agree.

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But that's EACH jumpers decision to make.

I also agree, but I feel that if you make a jump you consider too risky because you have a cypres, you are depending on the Cypres to offset the risk to bring it down to an acceptable level. I see this as running a red light (something you consider too risky to do) because you have airbags. I don't think this is a good idea.

I don't think telling somene that says; "I don't want to go on this 2-way because I think it is too risky.", "Ah, you'll be fine, you have a Cypres." is a good idea.

Derek

[hookitt 1]

When jumping off a cliff, I wear a lot of body armor. Body armor is optional. Jumping with out body armor is a personal choice. In my opinion jumping from a cliff without body is not very smart.

The chance of me needing body armor to save me from injury, or additional injury,is really not that high.

I make a choice to jump off cliffs. If my body armor was not available, I would not make the jump. I am dependant on body armor. Do I believe it will save me under all circumstances? Of course not.

Without the use of body armor, I would not be here today due to a mistake I made. It was a human error, not a gear error. With body armor my acceptable risk threshold is much higher than it would be without it.

My skill level is good enough for that 400 way. The decision to be on it would be because I'm capable of doing it. Skydiving with a CYPRES is a personal choice. In my opinion, jumping on a 400 way without a CYPRES is not very smart.

The chances of needing the Cypres to save me from impact with the ground is not very high.

I would make the choice to jump on the 400 way. If my rig did not have a CYPRES, I would borrow one or would not make the jump. Do I think it will save me under all circumstances? Of course not.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[Ron 10]

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The point I was making is that always and the majority are not the same thing.

No but 90% means that it is a majority and while it is not always assured that it is the cause, it is the best way to bet.

So if 90% of CYPRES fires are due to human error and not getting knocked out....Does it not make sense to look at the decision making process and training that led to the problem?

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Aren't the majority of mals also human error and don't we depend on the reserve as a backup?

Here is the difference....If you pack like shit, ignore the maintenance on your gear, or deploy without trying to be stable...Just cause you have a reserve...You are stupid. If you pack like you have no reserve, maintain your gear like your life depends on it, and try to be stable when you deploy...Then add a reserve you are much safer than they guy that just has a reserve.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Let’s assume reserves were not mandatory (and in some countries they are not by the way. Also in some countries the use of an AAD is mandatory).

OK. I would always skydive with a reserve. I would pack, maintain, and choose my gear as if I didn't have a reserve. Probably a BASE main. I would treeat skydiving like I treat BASE, no reserve. I would decide about jumps like CReW, bigways, etc as if I didn't have a reserve and probably wouldn't much over a 4-way and wouldn't do CReW because the chances of needing a reserve are too high. The optional reserve would not factor into my go/no-go jump choices.

Basically I would skydive like I didn't have a reserve.

Derek

[labrys 0]

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Here is the difference....

Okay. That point makes sense to me. I'm really interested in hearing your answer to the question I had about the whether there's a difference in attitudes in this case:

Someone not willing to do a bigway RW jump without an AAD

vs

Someone not willing to do a bigway CRW jump without a reserve.

I know that the reserve isn't optional here. Assume for this question that it is.

Owned by Remi #?

[nicknitro71 0]

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and probably wouldn't much over a 4-way and wouldn't do CReW because the chances of needing a reserve are too high

Derek, some people apply the same concept to an AAD. They would not do a particular jump without one very much like you would not do more than a 4-way or CRW without a reserve.

Again you make a distinction between a reserve and an ADD. They are both safety devices, both can malfunction, both can give you a false sense of security, and you should never, ever rely on them because they both have failed in the past and both will in the future.

Your posts are always welcome and thought provoking but I think you got trapped a bit into a vicious circle on this one, just my 0.02.

Memento Audere Semper

903

[Ron 10]

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Okay. That point makes sense to me. I'm really interested in hearing your answer to the question I had about the whether there's a difference in attitudes in this case:

Someone not willing to do a bigway RW jump without an AAD

vs

Someone not willing to do a bigway CRW jump without a reserve.

I know that the reserve isn't optional here. Assume for this question that it is.

Good question.

My first reaction is that I would do certain big ways without a CYPRES, but I would never do "Reserve CRW".

I can see how you think they are equal. But I think they are not.

In one case you are risking your life saving equipment, in the other you are not.

I have been hit in freefall, but still able to deploy. I have been in a two way CRW jump that if we had each only had one main...One or both of us would have been hurt/dead.

So since the "Reserve CRW" requires me to risk my ONE chance at living...It is a much higher level of risk than a big way sans AAD.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Praetorian 1]

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Basically I would skydive like I didn't have a reserve.

...no one (I'm pretty sure no one I could be wrong) would make the choice to jump one of the cutting edge tiny super eliptical mains if they did not have a reserve... so they ARE INCLUDING A SAFETY BACK UP when they choose their main, useing that safety back up to justify a risk they would otherwise not take...

Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad
judgment.

[labrys 0]

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In one case you are risking your life saving equipment, in the other you are not.

AHHHHHH!!!!!!!

Man. Now that's a good answer. I hadn't looked at it from that perspective. I also very much agree with NickNitro's post just above, because I'd been approaching the idea from the angle that the reserve and aad are both subject to failure.

I'm not sure that I agree that an AAD isn't "life saving equipment", but that's another discussion. I see your point in general. Thanks to everyone for taking the time to answer my questions

Owned by Remi #?

[billvon 3,030]

>I would make the choice to jump on the 400 way. If my rig did not have
>a CYPRES, I would borrow one or would not make the jump.

If you discovered that your cypres had shut down shortly before exit, would you still make the jump? Or would you sit it out and land with the aircraft?

[rhino 0]

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If you discovered that your cypres had shut down shortly before exit, would you still make the jump? Or would you sit it out and land with the aircraft?

Interesting question? Is not blowing the dive and peer pressure going to get in the way of his judgement? Will he stand firm?

[hookitt 1]

I was waiting for that one ... what would you do? I have no doubt you would jump. Lets just say, I would not get in the plane without the appearance that it is functioning properly.

Another thing, I jump an Infinity. The CYPRES display unit is under the reserve cover flap and once it's on my back, no one is going to open it, so chances are, I'd never even know it was turned off.

That's as far as I'll play into the scenario.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[Ron 10]

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I'm not sure that I agree that an AAD isn't "life saving equipment", but that's another discussion. I see your point in general. Thanks to everyone for taking the time to answer my questions

It is a life saving device. I like them.

But the problem I have is NOT the device. It is when people use them to allow themselves to do things they would not do without them.

IMO if you decide that a jump is to dangerous to do without one...Then you should consider the jump to dangerous to do period.

The running a red light just cause you have airbags is a great example.

The same can be said of jumping a main that you would not jump if you did not have a reserve. For the record I am thinking of changing my main for this reason. I have 7 mals, 6 are on the same type of canopy and are the SAME mal. I am looking at other mains to see if this is normal. I am going to check my line trim. I am also looking to see if it is something I am doing packing that could cause the same mal no matter what main I had. To be honest I am betting it is something I am doing, and not the fault of the gear....Now I need to see if I can identify the problem.

THATS being safe, not just continuing to jump the same type of main just cause I have a reserve.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

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I was waiting for that one ... what would you do? I have no doubt you would jump. Lets just say, I would not get in the plane without the appearance that it is functioning properly.

Another thing, I jump an Infinity. The CYPRES display unit is under the reserve cover flap and once it's on my back, no one is going to open it, so chances are, I'd never even know it was turned off.

That's as far as I'll play into the scenario.

Way to dodge the question.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[kallend 2,063]

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Just because you and Ron choose to evaluate your risk tolerance in one way does not entitle you to tell anyone else how to evaluate their risk tolerance.

Let me tell you something.. Derek's skill level and record allow him to tell you any damned thing he wants. Everything I learned about what to do and what not to do started with the safety training and planning I got from him.

He planned every detail of every jump. Knew aerodynamics like no one I have ever seen. That is partly why he can out track most people in a wing suit without one. He has a bazillion jumps on a VX60 loaded over 3:1 without incident. He has done test jumps that have benefited us all at his own risk time and time again putting his own ass on the line..

He is qualified and reserves the right..

What the hell have you done to tell him what he can't do?

Enlighten me please?

Whether you are intelligent enough to learn from him is your own prerogative.

Rhino

Sandy Wambach was very highly skilled.
Tom Piras was very highly skilled.
Roger Nelson was very highly skilled.
Patrick de Gayardon was very high skilled.
Rob Harris was very highly skilled.
Chris Martin was very highly skilled.

What do they have in common?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,063]

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I'm not sure that I agree that an AAD isn't "life saving equipment", but that's another discussion. I see your point in general. Thanks to everyone for taking the time to answer my questions

It is a life saving device. I like them.

But the problem I have is NOT the device. It is when people use them to allow themselves to do things they would not do without them.

IMO if you decide that a jump is to dangerous to do without one...Then you should consider the jump to dangerous to do period.

The running a red light just cause you have airbags is a great example.

The same can be said of jumping a main that you would not jump if you did not have a reserve. For the record I am thinking of changing my main for this reason. I have 7 mals, 6 are on the same type of canopy and are the SAME mal. I am looking at other mains to see if this is normal. I am going to check my line trim. I am also looking to see if it is something I am doing packing that could cause the same mal no matter what main I had. To be honest I am betting it is something I am doing, and not the fault of the gear....Now I need to see if I can identify the problem.

THATS being safe, not just continuing to jump the same type of main just cause I have a reserve.

But that is EXACTLY what you have been doing - jumping a canopy that gives you mals - 5 of them and you were still jumping it when you got your sixth.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Ron 10]

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But that is EXACTLY what you have been doing - jumping a canopy that gives you mals - 5 of them and you were still jumping it when you got your sixth.

You fail to read.

How many mals on your main John? And how many jumps do you have on it?

I know folks that are jumping the same main as me, and don't have the same number of mals. Fact is that I stated that I am checking to see why I have more than what might be normal...I am betting it is my packing since I have been trying to make my main open slower.

You failed to read that part.

There are several reasons why I have a 1/500 mal rate. One factor is my lowest WL is 1.73. At that WL a normal problem that might be fixed at 1.4 is not so easy to fix.

Maybe 1/500 is normal?

At any rate I am looking into WHY I have a 1/500 mal rate. Since I know others that don't with the same equipment, then I need to check the maintenance...Fairly new canopy. And packing...Well I was just trying to slow the openings down...WOW look I probley screwed up the pack job.

Now if I didn't look into possible factors and saying, "well, thats why I have a reserve"...Then I would be doing what you encourage others to do.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Derek, some people apply the same concept to an AAD. They would not do a particular jump without one very much like you would not do more than a 4-way or CRW without a reserve.

That is what I think people shoud do, not go above their risk threshold because they have an AAD, but some people do exactly that.

Let's say I think a 50-way is too risky for me. Why doesn;t matter. It could because I don't think I have the ablities I should or I don't think others on the dive have the abilitiues they should or the winds, whatever. The bottom line is I feel a 50-way is too risky. An AAD doesn't decrease the risk of that 50-way. It decreases the risk that if something bad does happen, I'll survive. If I do the 50-way because I have an AAD, then I am depending on an AAD to make a jump that is too risky, safe enough to do. I don't think an AAD should be used in this manner. I think that is the same as running a red light because you have airbags.

If you think running a red light is too risky, the risk of something bad happening is the same regardless if you have airbags or not. The difference is the airbags may save you. I hope no one would run red lights because they have airbags, and I hope no one would make a skydive they think is too risky because they have a Cypres.

I suppose it is just a way of looking at AAD's, but isn't my way of looking at AAD's safer than using an AAD to make jumps that are too risky? Isn't not doing the 50-way even with an AAD safer than doing it with? What is wrong with saying that 20-ways is the max for now (or whatever your personnal risk limit is) and sticking to 20-ways, even if you get an AAD?

Why tell a jumper that it is OK to do that 50-way they think is too dangerous as long as they do it with a Cypres?

Derek

[Praetorian 1]

If you hand known there was a 1/500 (probably higher as you 6 mals on THIS main are prabably on less than 3000 jumps right?) chance of an unrecoverable malfunction when you purchased this main would you have purchased it? would you have let the fact that you have a reserve be part of that decision process?


Edited to make sense ... or more sense anyway

Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad
judgment.