Hooknswoop 19
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QuoteDo you think an AFF instructor that won't ordinarily do AFF without an AAD should try it once to prove he can do it and be sure he isn't device dependent?
Then on the .00005% chance the aff guy gets knocked out on this jump, there will be a whole new layer of people pointing fingers at why he didn't have an aad and the irony that he always jumped with one. If you your qualified, able, and it's within your acceptable risk level to do aff and will only do it if you have a cypres, screw those people who want to label you as device dependent. You have already demo'd your skillz as an I and don't have to prove anything to somebody on a computer 1000 miles away.
QuoteFAR's require them...USPA requires them for students.
You are not dependent unless YOU require them. If you require an AAD to make a jump I personally would rethink making the jump at all.
Well than I guess my thinking is NO BETTER than the FAR's or USPA because I will not do aff without a cypres. I realize as I step out of that plane, get in that car, jump off that bridge, raft down those rapids that I (nor anybody else) is 100 % in control of the things or people in their surroundings. If you think you are...your fooling yourself. There have been very experienced jumpers with 1000's of more jumps than me die due to circumstances beyond their control where a cypres could have changed the outcome. I feel that I owe it to my family, friends, and most of all myself to have this backup device on jumps such as aff and newbie freeflying. You say,
QuoteIf you require an AAD to make a jump I personally would rethink making the jump at all.
..and label me as device dependent and that's fine. That's your opinion. I have jumped without an aad for several hundred jumps, and seen what can go wrong with aff and freeflying. My opinion is to always do those jumps with a cypres. Cypres are going for about $1200.....the average funeral is about $6000. Your personal acceptable risk is below what mine is and that's your decision. I hope none of us ever get into a situation where we get knocked out by a nasty AFF student or a newbie freeflyer, but it has happened. Have fun discussing the rest of the thread!!
billvon 2,998
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>Do you think an AFF instructor that won't ordinarily do AFF without an
>AAD should try it once to prove he can do it and be sure he isn't device
>dependent?
Prove it to who? Me? There's no reason to prove anything to me or anyone else. I think that in general it is a good idea to use an AAD; they save lives. The only person who has to feel comfortable with the level of risk he accepts is the person accepting the risk.
I have a feeling you are referring to an earlier comment I made to the effect of - if you are willing to make any jump of your choice without an AAD, you're not dependent on it. That's true pretty much by definition. If you are willing to jump with a main only (say on a BASE jump) then you're not dependent on your reserve, and many of us have done just that. That does NOT mean it's a good idea to jump without a reserve!
Now, what if someone doesn't want to jump without an AAD, ever? Are they overly dependent on it? They MAY be. Note that the word "may" is not the same as the word "is." A few cases in point -
A sketchy jumper about ten years back was jumping with an AAD. He told his friends that he would never jump without one because he was worried about freezing up. One day he had to bail out at 1500 feet, he froze up, he died. He was AAD dependent and it killed him.
A jumper at a boogie one year that I was organizing at actually said that he got on jumps over his head because he had a cypres. If his cypres broke down, he wasn't sure if he would quit jumping until it was fixed, but (he said) he would certainly be careful to make sure he didn't get knocked out! That jumper may have been relying on his cypres to do more than it can do, and it may actually have led him to make riskier jumps.
A jumper on the 372 way had a cypres failure. She asked if she could borrow a rig because she wanted the backup of the cypres. At first no rig was available; she said she would jump anyway but was uncomfortable. After another jumper broke her collarbone she got that rig and used it for the rest of the event. She's not AAD dependent because, to her, it is just a backup; she can skydive without one. She uses one as intended, to back up skills she already considers adequate.
A friend of mine never jumps without an AAD. I've jumped with her enough, and seen her work with students enough, to know she doesn't depend on it.
Who is the ultimate judge of whether or not you are too device dependent? You are. We all depend 100% on our harnesses; there's no easy way to get away from that. Are people out there overly dependent on their reserves? If they pack like shit because "hey, I have a reserve after all" they may be. Most people aren't like that. Are people out there overly dependent on their AAD's? Some may be, most aren't. It's a question you have to ask yourself. Asking yourself if you would do a jump under any conditions without an AAD is one thought experiment you can do to help you determine the answer.
>AAD should try it once to prove he can do it and be sure he isn't device
>dependent?
Prove it to who? Me? There's no reason to prove anything to me or anyone else. I think that in general it is a good idea to use an AAD; they save lives. The only person who has to feel comfortable with the level of risk he accepts is the person accepting the risk.
I have a feeling you are referring to an earlier comment I made to the effect of - if you are willing to make any jump of your choice without an AAD, you're not dependent on it. That's true pretty much by definition. If you are willing to jump with a main only (say on a BASE jump) then you're not dependent on your reserve, and many of us have done just that. That does NOT mean it's a good idea to jump without a reserve!
Now, what if someone doesn't want to jump without an AAD, ever? Are they overly dependent on it? They MAY be. Note that the word "may" is not the same as the word "is." A few cases in point -
A sketchy jumper about ten years back was jumping with an AAD. He told his friends that he would never jump without one because he was worried about freezing up. One day he had to bail out at 1500 feet, he froze up, he died. He was AAD dependent and it killed him.
A jumper at a boogie one year that I was organizing at actually said that he got on jumps over his head because he had a cypres. If his cypres broke down, he wasn't sure if he would quit jumping until it was fixed, but (he said) he would certainly be careful to make sure he didn't get knocked out! That jumper may have been relying on his cypres to do more than it can do, and it may actually have led him to make riskier jumps.
A jumper on the 372 way had a cypres failure. She asked if she could borrow a rig because she wanted the backup of the cypres. At first no rig was available; she said she would jump anyway but was uncomfortable. After another jumper broke her collarbone she got that rig and used it for the rest of the event. She's not AAD dependent because, to her, it is just a backup; she can skydive without one. She uses one as intended, to back up skills she already considers adequate.
A friend of mine never jumps without an AAD. I've jumped with her enough, and seen her work with students enough, to know she doesn't depend on it.
Who is the ultimate judge of whether or not you are too device dependent? You are. We all depend 100% on our harnesses; there's no easy way to get away from that. Are people out there overly dependent on their reserves? If they pack like shit because "hey, I have a reserve after all" they may be. Most people aren't like that. Are people out there overly dependent on their AAD's? Some may be, most aren't. It's a question you have to ask yourself. Asking yourself if you would do a jump under any conditions without an AAD is one thought experiment you can do to help you determine the answer.
Ron 10
QuoteDo you think an AFF instructor that won't ordinarily do AFF without an AAD should try it once to prove he can do it and be sure he isn't device dependent?
No, he only has to prove it to himself, and that can be done by simply asking the question "Would I do this jump if my AAD was not operational?" And answering it honestly.
We have proof that some use an AAD to allow them to participate in more dangerous actions.
13% of skydivers said they would limit they type of jump they do depending on an AAD being present.
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1614903#1614903
We have skydivers that have stated that they see certain jumps to be too dangerous without an AAD, but will do those same jumps if they have one:
Quote
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1608802#1608802
I won't do freefly jumps with newbies that are learning to freefly until i get my cypres back. The chances of jumping with someone that isn't yet stable just isn't worth it to me. I'll stick to jumping with more experienced people. I do realize accidents still happen even with experienced jumpers, but it's my decision. I don't think i need to re-evaluate jumping because of that.
So jumping with a newbie FF is to dangerous to do without an AAD....But it is OK to do with an AAD?
This person is doing what they KNOW to be more dangerous things, things that they would NOT do without an AAD, just because they have one.
Doing more dangerous things just because you have a backup is like driving reckless because you have airbags....Not very smart.
It is this very attitude that is bad. Adding an AAD increases your chance of survival, but it does not reduce the risk of accidents at all.
The smartest attitude is to use your brain (The best saftey device) to avoid accidents.
Put it this way....If a jumper will use an AAD to allow them to go past their personal risk threshold...You have a person that is not sure of what they are doing....You had better hope that EVERYONE that jumps with them when they are "pushing the limit" has an AAD...Cause while the dependant person may feel "safe" since they have an AAD...that person is still a risk, maybe even a HIGHER risk to everyone else since they are clearly opperating outside of their comfort range but doing it anyway since they have an AAD.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
Ron 10
QuoteSo if the USPA changed the rules and made AADs mandatory for all as they are for tandem jumps .. then this whole arguemnt ENDS??? all logic all compairsons and someone saying "its ok I have a cypres is suddenly ok if its because of a rule??
Hook answered for me.
I AGREE with tandems needing an AAD. When I do a Tandem I have someones life in my hands. Not just my own.
As for students....Well, I think its a good idea. I wish we didn't tell them about the AAD till after they get a license.
That right there would help prevent people from depending on them.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
Heh???
I simply stated that AAD does not mean Cypress. Cypress is not the only AAD. Nothing more.
I simply stated that AAD does not mean Cypress. Cypress is not the only AAD. Nothing more.
kallend 2,027
QuoteQuoteDo you think an AFF instructor that won't ordinarily do AFF without an AAD should try it once to prove he can do it and be sure he isn't device dependent?
No, he only has to prove it to himself, and that can be done by simply asking the question "Would I do this jump if my AAD was not operational?" And answering it honestly.
We have proof that some use an AAD to allow them to participate in more dangerous actions.
13% of skydivers said they would limit they type of jump they do depending on an AAD being present.
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1614903#1614903
We have skydivers that have stated that they see certain jumps to be too dangerous without an AAD, but will do those same jumps if they have one:Quote
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1608802#1608802
I won't do freefly jumps with newbies that are learning to freefly until i get my cypres back. The chances of jumping with someone that isn't yet stable just isn't worth it to me. I'll stick to jumping with more experienced people. I do realize accidents still happen even with experienced jumpers, but it's my decision. I don't think i need to re-evaluate jumping because of that.
So jumping with a newbie FF is to dangerous to do without an AAD....But it is OK to do with an AAD?
This person is doing what they KNOW to be more dangerous things, things that they would NOT do without an AAD, just because they have one.
Doing more dangerous things just because you have a backup is like driving reckless because you have airbags....Not very smart.
It is this very attitude that is bad. Adding an AAD increases your chance of survival, but it does not reduce the risk of accidents at all.
The smartest attitude is to use your brain (The best saftey device) to avoid accidents.
Put it this way....If a jumper will use an AAD to allow them to go past their personal risk threshold...You have a person that is not sure of what they are doing....You had better hope that EVERYONE that jumps with them when they are "pushing the limit" has an AAD...Cause while the dependant person may feel "safe" since they have an AAD...that person is still a risk, maybe even a HIGHER risk to everyone else since they are clearly opperating outside of their comfort range but doing it anyway since they have an AAD.
Ron, they are more dangerous things for everyone. Someone that does freefly coaching with newbies does not mitigate their risk of violent death by jumping without a CYPRES, they increase it. Your logic is backwards.
Once upon a time I did a bunch of 10-way speed jumps without a CYPRES, using a borrowed rig (since mine was not available). I have since decided that was pretty stupid, given the nature of 10-way speed, and now I won't do it without a CYPRES. Did I suddenly become a less safe or less skilled skydiver because of this? If so, explain how.
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
Ron 10
QuoteThen on the .00005% chance the aff guy gets knocked out on this jump
I never said he should do it...I said he should ask himself that question.
Quoteand label me as device dependent and that's fine
OK cool. Does not bother me....I still think that if you think the jump too dangerous to do...Then it should be too dangerous even with an AAD.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
Ron 10
QuoteSomeone that does freefly coaching with newbies does not mitigate their risk of violent death by jumping without a CYPRES, they increase it.
OK they reduce the risk of Violent death FOR THEM. They DO NOT reduce the CHANCE OF AN ACCIDENT...In fact they increase the chance of an accident by doing things they think is unsafe without an AAD.
They would be MUCH safer to aviod the dangerous situation in the first place, then ADD an AAD as a true backup, not as a way to increase the chances of an accident and using the AAD to increase the chance of surviving.
Do you see that by going on dives you would normally think as too dangerous with out an AAD, that doing them with an AAD might increase your chance of SURVIVING, but it in fact can INCREASE the danger of an accident happening. And since we all can agree that even having an AAD does not mean you will OK in the event of an accident that by using one to go into more dangerous situations is not good.
You actually can increase the chances of an accident happening instead of not doing the dangerous jumps.
QuoteDid I suddenly become a less safe or less skilled skydiver because of this? If so, explain how.
If you allow yourself to dive faster, longer since you have an AAD...I hope everyone on that dive has one since if you hit them...you might be fine, but they may still be killed by your confidence.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
QuoteOK cool. Does not bother me....I still think that if you think the jump too dangerous to do...Then it should be too dangerous even with an AAD.
I agree....but that's not what is being said.....
Ron 10
QuoteI agree....but that's not what is being said.....
Look if I think a dive is too dangerous to do without an AAD....I think it should not be done at all.
If you think that it is too dangerous to do without an AAD, but will do it with one...I think that is bad.
I think that the safest thing you can do is to only jump on dives that you feel are safe, and then ADD an AAD to make them safer.
Do you add an AAD to remove the chance of something bad happening, or do you use an AAD to allow you to feel safe going outside your normal boundries?
Would you drive more reckless if you had a Volvo? Or would you drive the same?
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
kallend 2,027
QuoteQuote
QuoteDid I suddenly become a less safe or less skilled skydiver because of this? If so, explain how.
If you allow yourself to dive faster, longer since you have an AAD...I hope everyone on that dive has one since if you hit them...you might be fine, but they may still be killed by your confidence.
You dive as fast and as long as is necessary to get the completion in the shortest time. AADs have nothing to do with that....
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
Obviously we look at it from two different viewpoints.
I agree
I agree....but think this is worse than the first example.
I ABSOLUTELY agree hence my previous post:
Niether....I use it as a backup incase something bad happens that I have no control over.
QuoteLook if I think a dive is too dangerous to do without an AAD....I think it should not be done at all.
I agree
QuoteIf you think that it is too dangerous to do without an AAD, but will do it with one...I think that is bad.
I agree....but think this is worse than the first example.
QuoteI think that the safest thing you can do is to only jump on dives that you feel are safe, and then ADD an AAD to make them safer.
I ABSOLUTELY agree hence my previous post:
QuoteI choose to do AFF and tandems with a cypres and won't without one. One is because it's the law, the other is because i just think it's an INTELLIGENT thing to do. I am not accepting risks that are over my head or ability JUST because I won't do aff without it. I don't rely on my cypres to "save" me. I have the confidence in my skills, ablility and think that aff is within my acceptable limits.
Edit to add: I have met people who would do something that is beyond their ability/risk level just because they had a cypres on....I think this is a DUMB idea... But, not ALL people who choose to do certain jumps only if they have an AAD are getting themselves over their acceptable risk level. You can't blanket the entire skydiving world as "device dependent" because they choose to only do AFF, tandems, freefly, 400 ways, or anything else only if they have a cypres. ** If you only choose to go on a jump only because you have a cypres and think it'll save you in a bad situation/save you because your over your head, THEN you need to look at your priorities...
QuoteDo you add an AAD to remove the chance of something bad happening, or do you use an AAD to allow you to feel safe going outside your normal boundries?
Niether....I use it as a backup incase something bad happens that I have no control over.
QuoteLook if I think a dive is too dangerous to do without an AAD....I think it should not be done at all.
I've said it before... take 2 identical jumpers. Same skill, same experience. Both are freefly coaches. They both use AADs on every jump. One of them will jump without it (if it wasn't available for a jump), the other would not. On a given jump where both are AAD equipped, they're taking the same risk. The one that will jump without an AAD is not safer. Not on that jump, and not on a jump without an AAD. Their philosophy toward cypres use does not affect their safety directly. The one who WOULD do freefly coaching without a cypres might want to think about those that have been killed where a cypres may have otherwise saved their lives. I simply don't buy it that I'm SAFER on any given jump solely based on the fact that I'd do the same jump without a cypres. That situation could come up on ANY jump, not just one that is especially dangerous. It might be a good sign that I'm taking higher risks on that jump than others, but I already know that! That's why I wouldn't do that jump without a cypres in the first place. I accept the higher risk (of a collision or loss of altitude awareness) on that jump and use a cypres in case the same thing happens to me that has happend to others on that type of jump. Would I be safer sitting it out? HELL YES! Just like EVERY OTHER SKYDIVE!
When you're talking about reckless skydiving or jumpers going beyond their skill level, I agree with you completely. That shouldn't happen, AAD or not. But how many people are really dying (or having cypres fires) from doing this (other than jumping canopies beyond their skill level)?
Dave
Ron 10
QuoteYou dive as fast and as long as is necessary to get the completion in the shortest time. AADs have nothing to do with that.
If you allow yourself to do the jump because you have an AAD...It sure does.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
Ron 10
QuoteI have met people who would do something that is beyond their ability/risk level just because they had a cypres on....I think this is a DUMB idea.
We agree 100%
This,
QuoteBut, not ALL people who choose to do certain jumps only if they have an AAD are getting themselves over their acceptable risk level.
And this,
QuoteIf you only choose to go on a jump only because you have a cypres and think it'll save you in a bad situation/save you because your over your head, THEN you need to look at your priorities...
Seem to contradict each other.
Why wear an AAD unless you think it will save you in a bad situation?
QuoteNiether....I use it as a backup incase something bad happens that I have no control over.
Kinda fits in the "Do you add an AAD to remove the chance of something bad happening" statement.
But at any rate if true then it is clear you are not....But you must admit that some are, and they are dangerous.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
Hooknswoop 19
QuoteOnce upon a time I did a bunch of 10-way speed jumps without a CYPRES, using a borrowed rig (since mine was not available). I have since decided that was pretty stupid, given the nature of 10-way speed, and now I won't do it without a CYPRES. Did I suddenly become a less safe or less skilled skydiver because of this? If so, explain how.
Yes. You are doing something that you feel has more risk than benefit (rsik benefit ratio) because you have an AAD. You are depending on that AAD to reduce the risk of the 1-way speed dives to lower the risk/benefit ratio back below your limit. By depending on the AAD you are, by definition, device dependant.
If the AAD was, unbeknownst to you, non-functional, you would be doing a jump that is beyond your risk/benefit ratio. You are depending on it to function.
Derek
Ron 10
QuoteI've said it before... take 2 identical jumpers. Same skill, same experience. Both are freefly coaches. They both use AADs on every jump. One of them will jump without it (if it wasn't available for a jump), the other would not. On a given jump where both are AAD equipped, they're taking the same risk. The one that will jump without an AAD is not safer. Not on that jump, and not on a jump without an AAD.
agreed.
QuoteTheir philosophy toward cypres use does not affect their safety directly
Not true. If one will do jumps that he considers to dangerous to do without an AAD with one then he is doing something more dangerous than he should be doing.
QuoteThe one who WOULD do freefly coaching without a cypres might want to think about those that have been killed where a cypres may have otherwise saved their lives.
And the one that will do the jump since he has the CYPRES might want to think that he is jumping into a more dangerous situation and he STILL may not survive it...so if the risk is so great, maybe he should just not do the jump at all.
QuoteI simply don't buy it that I'm SAFER on any given jump solely based on the fact that I'd do the same jump without a cypres
AH, here is the kicker...your not. But by going on more dangerous jumps since you have a CYPRES you are in more danger than the guy that will not go o those jumps because he thinks they are more dangerous....Even if he does not have a CYPRES.
QuoteIt might be a good sign that I'm taking higher risks on that jump than others, but I already know that! That's why I wouldn't do that jump without a cypres in the first place.
allowing yourself to do "dumber things" cause you have an AAD is dangerous.
QuoteI accept the higher risk (of a collision or loss of altitude awareness) on that jump and use a cypres in case the same thing happens to me that has happend to others on that type of jump. Would I be safer sitting it out? HELL YES! Just like EVERY OTHER SKYDIVE!
You are also risking others lives.
Lets say you and I are coaching FF (Not that I could, but lets just say)....
We both have two EXACT students. I have an AAD, but I don't want to do the jump since the student seems dangerous to me.
You do the jump since you have an AAD.
Same thing happens to you that would have happend to me. The student corks and hits you....You survive the jump due to having an AAD, the student does not.
Who is the safest? You for having an AAD, or me for not doing the jump?
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
As I said, sitting out any skydive is safer than participating in any skydive. Choosing to use a cypres does NOT indicate that someone doesn't accept the risk of participating in that skydive. You can even ignore that the AAD does decrease risk (of dying). An AFF instructor may ACCEPT that the risk of a collision with a student is high and THEREFORE choose to use a cypres EVERY TIME.
We've heard from multiple AFF instructors that choose to use cypreses for AFF. At my DZ, AADs are mandatory for AFF instructors and coaches. Theres a reason for both of those facts. Why are you better suited to doing AFF than one of those instructors? Because you're willing to risk MORE? Your risk tolerance is higher and that means... ummm... hmmm. What does it mean? Here's what we know. You aren't necessarily safer, you aren't necessarily a better instructor, you aren't necessarily more experienced, you aren't necessarily a nicer guy, you aren't necessarily better looking, you aren't necessarily ANY BETER SUITED TO INSTRUCT. You're simply a guy willing to take higher risks. And that's a GOOD thing for an AFF instructor???
Some jumps ARE more dangerous than others and those that will do them without a cypres FULLY accept the risk of that jump (well, they still might wear helmets and probably have reserves that are properly packed, etc). Deciding to use a cypres is not an indication that risk isn't accepted! That's a personal decision, and if they DO the jump, they accept the risk. If they die, they die. You're just more willing to die than they are!
Are you helmet dependent? Should AFF instructors be willing to make any AFF jump without a helmet (or not make that jump at all)?
You can always tell how dangerous a stranger will be in the air? Would you jump with a complete stranger? Would you jump with a complete stranger and not wear an AAD? Unless you CAN tell how dangerous he'll be, why would you assume he'll be safe in the air?
Dave
QuoteNot true. If one will do jumps that he considers to dangerous to do without an AAD with one then he is doing something more dangerous than he should be doing.
We've heard from multiple AFF instructors that choose to use cypreses for AFF. At my DZ, AADs are mandatory for AFF instructors and coaches. Theres a reason for both of those facts. Why are you better suited to doing AFF than one of those instructors? Because you're willing to risk MORE? Your risk tolerance is higher and that means... ummm... hmmm. What does it mean? Here's what we know. You aren't necessarily safer, you aren't necessarily a better instructor, you aren't necessarily more experienced, you aren't necessarily a nicer guy, you aren't necessarily better looking, you aren't necessarily ANY BETER SUITED TO INSTRUCT. You're simply a guy willing to take higher risks. And that's a GOOD thing for an AFF instructor???
Some jumps ARE more dangerous than others and those that will do them without a cypres FULLY accept the risk of that jump (well, they still might wear helmets and probably have reserves that are properly packed, etc). Deciding to use a cypres is not an indication that risk isn't accepted! That's a personal decision, and if they DO the jump, they accept the risk. If they die, they die. You're just more willing to die than they are!
Are you helmet dependent? Should AFF instructors be willing to make any AFF jump without a helmet (or not make that jump at all)?
QuoteWe both have two EXACT students. I have an AAD, but I don't want to do the jump since the student seems dangerous to me.
You can always tell how dangerous a stranger will be in the air? Would you jump with a complete stranger? Would you jump with a complete stranger and not wear an AAD? Unless you CAN tell how dangerous he'll be, why would you assume he'll be safe in the air?
Dave
QuoteBut, not ALL people who choose to do certain jumps only if they have an AAD are getting themselves over their acceptable risk level.
And this,
QuoteIf you only choose to go on a jump only because you have a cypres and think it'll save you in a bad situation/save you because your over your head, THEN you need to look at your priorities...
QuoteSeem to contradict each other.
First statement I'm making a decision to (based on my experience, ablility, and risk management) do a jump. Then I choose to wear a cypres purely as a backup device.
The second, someone decides to do a jump with either higher risk, over their ability, because they have a cypres.
I see them as two different things.
QuoteNiether....I use it as a backup incase something bad happens that I have no control over.
QuoteKinda fits in the "Do you add an AAD to remove the chance of something bad happening" statement.
No, it doesn't remove the chance of something bad happened.. it will possibly help if something does. I jump like it's not there. It in no way changes the way I look at a jump.
QuoteBut at any rate if true then it is clear you are not....But you must admit that some are, and they are dangerous.
I agree... these people infuriate me!! But to blanket the entire skydiving community saying they a dependent if they won't do a certain skydive without a cypres, I disagree with. After reading all the posts I guess I can see why you think that the cypres affects my decisions... I see it as:
Jump---risk factor---my ability---comfortable with the jump?-yes---cypres as back-up.
I think other people on the thread see my views as:
Jump---risk factor---ablility---cypres--"makes" me comforable.
No, if they say "I can do this jump because I have a Cypres." they are still device dependant.
It really is simple. If you make a jump BECAUSE you have an AAD, then you are relying on it. You shouldn't rely on AAD's.
Derek
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