USPA Collegiate Nationals is no longer allowing grad students to compete

[Jcoff89 0]

everyone please sign the petition!!!

http://www.turboskydiving.com

[Krip 2]

Hi J

Signed today #213

One Jump Wonder

[BikerBabe 0]

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I don't know a whole lot about this issue. It seems like the Air Force Academy has a huge advantage in these competitions. If anyone is excluded it should be them, (in my opinion). With all their free jumps and financial backing, how can that be fair!

In 73 or so we kicked the Air Forces Academy's rear in competition at Boise, Idaho. Most of these cadets thought they were too good to even talk to my long haired team-mates. Most of these cadets come from families of privilege, and most are connected even to get into the Academy. It felt great to beat them at R.W. (in ten-way competition).

Gee, i wish I'd come from a family of privilege, or been connected. Too bad to get into the AFA i had to work my ass off in high school and go through more hoops then any civilian college admissions process to get in.

My family is middle class at best, and my congressman was a 2-term representative who i had never met before and that i didn't even vote for.

Thank you for diminishing my accomplishments (and the accomplishments of hundreds of other amazing people) due to your jealousy.

Yes, i was on the team. And your post proves that you have absolutely NO idea how much those cadets have to "pay" for all their "free" jumps. You seem to think that these kids jump all day for free and train 4-way all the time.

Ask a cadet at the AFA who is NOT on the team how hard they have to work. Then go ahead and multiply that by at least 3, and that's what being on the Wings of Blue is. You have to do all the regular academy crap, PLUS teach AM-490 (ground school AND jumpmaster), train for and travel to demos (taking time away from said regular academy crap), train for ALL the competition events...there are no specialists on the team. You compete at collegiates, you do it all. a 4500ft accuracy jump does nothing for 4-way, yanno. Yes, the AFA is a $250k education shoved up your a$$ one nickel at a time. There are many more ways to pay than money, mah friend.

As for the grad student thing...it seems strange that this was "changed" without fanfare. I signed the petition, even though according to some i might be "too good to even talk to" them.

Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!

[Wenger 0]

Ok, its seems that I may be the bad guy in this. I will try and answer some of your questions and tell you how the Competition Committee (CC) came to this change. First I am the CC chair, I am new to the BOD this term but served for 8 years on the BOD before and was the chair of the CC them. I have worked at the Air Force Academy for 23 years. I have attended 28 Collegiate Championships; I believe it to be the most important competition USPA runs.
- This motion (undergraduate eligibility) was done at the Feb 09 USPA BOD meeting and was reported out in the CC report to the full board. Despite what some may say we don't do anything secret or even try to. The motion came from two areas, one several competitors asked why grad students were allowed to jump in a National competition and trying to clarify other eligibility requirements.
- In discussion it was stated in other NCAA sports grad students are not allowed to compete at the College level. After considerable discussion it was decided to bring us in line with other college sports.
- Before I go any further lets me address a couple other concerns. The AFA could care less about this, doesn't concern them and they weren't even asked about it.
- To give a little history on when the Nationals are held, when I competed in them the competition was held over the Thanksgiving holiday. There was never enough time to complete the meet and schools needed more time to prepare since most only arrived back to school in Sept. Last Christmas is the only other common holidays that all school have.
- Back to the issue. I first heard that this was a controversy just two days ago when I happened to get on DZ.com. I don't get on very often. After reading the info I was impressed on the response and I have asked the CC to read the email and petition.
- Most every change that the committee does is trying to improve the competition and keep it the Championships "current" Changes such as sport accuracy, VFR, and 6-way speed came about because a couple individuals asked a question. Do we get it right every time No, sorry we are not perfect. Can we change our minds and change this back of course. Heck, my wife makes me change my mind all the time.
- I have asked the CC to review the info petition and get back to me. Several have already voted to change it back to include graduate students. This will have to go thru the system but I think this change will take place before the 09 collegiate Nationals. Again I said I think it still has to go the thru the slow imperfect democratic system.
- One more thing that I would lke to add. When you have any question about competition please first call or email me or any one else on the Competition Committee first. It might save everyone alot of time. I'm not saying the committee will change a rule everytime there is a complaint but at least give us a chance to address your concerns.
- Call or email me if you want further info. Bill Wenger 719-200-8947 acc_coach@msn.com

[airtwardo 7]

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- In discussion it was stated in other NCAA sports grad students are not allowed to compete at the College level. After considerable discussion it was decided to bring us in line with other college sports.

Hi Bill~

Thanks for replying with the facts.

The problem is as I see it though, is that Skydiving is for the most part unlike 'college sports' in the commonly used definition of that term...and any comparison is laughable on it's face, perhaps disconcerting upon deeper inspection.

If anything is more of an 'intramural activity' in that most if not all the costs are paid by the participant, including equipment, coaching and travel.

There are (other than in the case of the academies) seldom set up periods of time to participate, get professional coaching, host & travel to inter-collegiate competitions though out the 'season'.

It's an activity that doesn't require scouting or recruitment, nor are there generally accepted levels of performance one must obtain to even try out.

I believe it's pretty much now what it was back in the late 70's & 80's...a bunch of fairly young guys paying their own way to compete against peers in a sport they love.

Very few are the collegiate sports one continues on with following graduation, to the degree we Skydivers do.

You would know better than I, but how many universities actually fund, even in part a skydiving program...much less sanction it?

I remember you being rather surprised some 30 years ago, when you gave a talk to us Salukis and I explain how we'd not only gotten 'sanctioned' but were receiving minimal funding for training and travel to the nationals and were actually being paid to do the opening jumps at home games.
(we skydivers as a group had nearly taken over the student council.)

Still, we had no professional coach with 28 years experience, university provided matching gear, let alone aircraft support, riggers etc...and that year the only competition prior to the nationals was a meet WE put on at Sparta, 6 people from 2 other schools showed up.

I check the SIU Skydivers website now and then, and I guarantee it's definitely NOT that way these days.

It's a part-time, participant financed, non sanctioned activity...a sport done while in college isn't necessarily a 'collegiate sport'.

Heck someone on here said a year back their school wouldn't even let them use the school NAME!

Is it really an ongoing concern that a grad student 'ringer' is going to mop up all the metals?

No, in my humble opinion not only should any student pulling the required hours be allowed to participate...I believe there should be separate categories at the collegiate nationals for both military and civilian schools.




Now THAT would more fairly represent the skills and accomplishments of these collegiate athletes in regard to the respective 'playing fields' they train on.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[LyraM45 0]

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The problem is as I see it though, is that Skydiving is for the most part unlike 'college sports' in the commonly used definition of that term...and any comparison is laughable on it's face, perhaps disconcerting upon deeper inspection.

BINGO!!! Skydiving is NOT like other college sports. I really see no reason why grad students can not be included in this. Even as an undergrad I thought the same exact thing, so I am not just thinking this as the poor grad student who isn't allowed to compete now. It's just a young group of people getting together, both grad and undergrad, and experiencing friendly competition in an enviroment that is a lot less intimidating as actual nationals where people have thousands of jumps. Heck, from what I've see with the USPA trying to get more college aged students involved in the sport (with the recent dwindle in numbers for that age group over the years), you'd think they would be begging the grad students to get involved instead of turning them away.

Apologies for the spelling (and grammar).... I got a B.S, not a B.A. :)

[AggieDave 6]

Did you even research anything you just posted about? Grad students CAN compete in NCAA events, as long as they meet other rules. Guess what, the other rules are really similar to what the previous collegiate rules were!

http://www.ncaa.org/wps/ncaa?ContentID=420#graduate_student_eligibility

This is a perfect example of how the USPA is trying to kill the future of our sport.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Wenger 0]

I stand corrected. When I was a D1 college wrestler we had several wrestlers that didn't finish there last course for their undergraduate degree so the could wrestle. They took graduate courses then completed the last course after the season. But then that 30 years ago. So, AggieDave I stan corrected. But one thing you said which if you know anything on how the people who work with the Collegiate Jumpers and the Collegiate Nationals, this includes USPA, is that they care. We may make mistakes, but we care and will continue to promote the colllegiate jumpers. When we make mistakes we will try and fix them. As much as some would like this to be some evil plot by USPA to kill the future of our sport, well it just isn't so.

[DanG 1]

What, pray tell, is USPA's motivation to "kill the future of our sport"? Why would anyone think that the USPA is trying to destroy skydiving?

I really don't get the mentality.

- Dan G

[airtwardo 7]

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What, pray tell, is USPA's motivation to "kill the future of our sport"? Why would anyone think that the USPA is trying to destroy skydiving?

I really don't get the mentality.

I don't believe any of us thinks the USPA is consciously trying to kill the sport, however some of the decisions made the last few years seem to be, not necessarily thoroughly thought out in regard to the actual long term repercussions to the membership.

Fortunately forums like this allow for open discussion of issues, and dedicated professionals like Bill Wenger engaging in factual discourse allow the BOD to better understand the needs and opinions of the general membership.

I for one find it refreshing to see a board member post the facts and reasoning behind a decision, even though I don't agree with him on it.


How many other people in his position post a phone number and encourage personal interaction?

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[steve1 5]

BikerBabe,
I'm sorry for some of my words. I don't blame you for being pissed. Unfairness is one of my issues. When I see something unfair it drives me a little crazy. I don't mean to put down what you have accomplished.

It just seems to me that there is predjudice in deciding who gets into the Air Force Academy. I have seen many young people apply, who had everything going for them, and they were turned away. I'd like to know what goes into this decision process.

We had a relative who was a colonel in the Air Force. His son had no trouble at all getting into the Academy. I've talked to some of the cadre from the Colorado Springs, and they went on and on about how hundreds are often turned away before they accept the right cadet.

My question is...is the one they select really that much better than the many, many who are turned down, each year. Often times being connected with those in power, and knowing the right people does matter.

I knew a kid in my High School who was accepted to Annapolis. Believe me this kid was a real idiot. He was selfish, narcistic, and I could go on. He came from a wealthy family who knew the right people and he got in. Then he quit months later.

No, not everyone in these Academies think that their manure doesn't stink. But, there are many who do.

And you can't tell me that those on the Air Force Academy parachute team, don't have an advantage in competition.

It felt good for a bunch of long haired, rag tag, jumpers, to show up at a collegiant meet, and beat the Air Force Academy. One of our long haired team mates was B.J. Worth.

I imagine doing something like that, these days, would be impossible......

[airtwardo 7]

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Yes, i was on the team. And your post proves that you have absolutely NO idea how much those cadets have to "pay" for all their "free" jumps. You seem to think that these kids jump all day for free and train 4-way all the time.

I congratulate you on your achievements, I have a basic idea what being on an academy team consisted of, years ago anyway.

I was skydiving instructor a couple years prior to entering college and a student of mine was accepted to the USMA...we kept in touch, and he kicked my ass in S&A at the nationals.

Your academy experience with skydiving competition was no doubt a gruelling challenge, however I have to believe no more so than any civilians attempting to participate.

In my case, I choose the state university I attended in part because I was told they had an active collegiate skydiving team...when I arrived I found that the 'team' consisted of me and another guy with 20 jumps.

OUR dedication, commitment and love of the sport resulted in
the building of one of the largest and most popular school 'clubs' available to students at that time.

We put together a club of nearly 200 members, did activities at various university and community events to raise money and get the club publicity.

I worked out a deal with the local DZO to get the 'team' block training prices withOUT actually being able to purchase block tickets.

We as a club basically infiltrated the student council em-mass holding various positions in order to 'encourage' the university to assist us in attending the collegiate nationals...we got 10 paid training jumps, a school van and gas card to drive there and 50% of the registration fee.

The 'team' was 10 of the best club members that could afford to go...not the best skydivers, the best that could beg, borrow or steal the money to compete.

OUR 'coaching' was people like Bill Wenger and Dave Verner and Bill Hayse stopping by a club meeting and giving us direction via a lecture.

Two of the people on out 4 way team had to use borrowed gut gear to train and compete because it was a question of buying old gear and not practicing or borrowing gear and spending the $ on lift tickets.
There were times reserves were penciled in order to make a practice session, in the collegiate civilian world, sometimes we went without many basic college necessities because of our skydiving passion.

We like you folks at Colorado Springs, also had 'regular' school commitments to follow through with...all of us on the 'team' also held at least one part-time job (I had 3)
in addition to full class loads, other school interests, clubs, teams, activities etc.

Nobody coming from a 'family of privilege' as you said, was doing any skydiving at my school during the time I attended.

We were a scruffy bunch of guys that no shit, loved the sport enough to give up time, meal money, a school social life, and undoubtedly a few points of GPA to be involved.

While going to college I personally paid for my food, rent, school expenses, my skydiving, my gear, my transportation 60 miles every week to the DZ where I was an instructor, I was also a collegiate boxer, taught university karate classes, worked as a bouncer in a bar, & delivered pizzas ...knowing full well that upon graduation I was going into an economy facing recession and scant employment possibilities while carrying a school loan totaling more than my expected annual salary... if I could even get a job.

I'm not 'jealous' of your military education, you earned it through as you said, hard work and commitment.

But don't presume your involvement with collegiate skydiving was more of a strain on your time and education commitment than any civilian pursuing the dream of a medal at the nationals.

Now as it was when I did it 30 years ago, many if not most civilian college skydivers are doing it on the thinnest of shoestrings...I think they understand today as we did back then, that you jumpers in the academies have a full plate 'day in day out' for 4 years running.

But too, as you mentioned...cadets do get professional coaching, free -safe- contemporary gear, aircraft, tunnel time, training for and pre-marketed demos...on and on
~ all things state school skydivers drool for... not to mention the 1/4 million dollar education, and an interesting career guaranteed upon graduation.

Perhaps neither of us should judge the other until we 'walk a mile' as the saying goes...

~but back on point, I truly don't understand the logic of eliminating graduate students from a 'small informal league' if you will, of a National Collegiate Competition that for years and years has been understandably dominated by our Military Academies.

Someone PM'd me a comment regarding a conflict of interest to have a military school's parachute team coach in charge of the rules relating to competition.

I know Bill Wenger by both deed and reputation and have no doubt of his fairness and integrity...my respect for him is without question or reservation.

That being said, it's doubtful the NCAA would allow any similar association...yet another example of how Skydiving is definitely NOT comparable to any other college 'sport'.

Let's get it back to where it was, pull a full load at school and ya get to compete...most 'civilian' college skydivers, undergraduate or otherwise, couldn't match the 10 grand (+or-) the taxpayers spend getting each cadet ready for the collegiate nationals and they know it, all they can hope to do is gain some competition experience and have a good time.

After all, in the end we're ALL just a bunch of freakin' Skydivers!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[AggieDave 6]

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When we make mistakes we will try and fix them.

Well then, it absolutely amazes me that no research was conducted to push your agenda to disallow grad students. I don't think that the USPA is trying to consciously kill the sport, its a bucket full of good intentions that have not been researched or thought through.

I will never again be eligible to compete at collegiate, but I still think they are very important. I also believe that the actions that you and your board have taken in this matter are flat wrong. You should have completed some research before trying to align our non-NCAA sport with some sort of NCAA rules that you made up.

What was so wrong with the previous rules. What serious unfair advantage did someone bring to the table? Thousands of jumps? What about Mullin's kid who showed up to compete a few years ago? Freshman in college with a few thousand jumps. He still would have been allowed to compete under these new rules.

Aren't you still a AFA skydiving coach?

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[VTmotoMike08 0]

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The motion came from two areas, one several competitors asked why grad students were allowed to jump in a National competition and trying to clarify other eligibility requirements.

Four year collegiate competitor and former president of the Virginia Tech skydiving club here. Hopefully I can get some time off work to make it to the next collegiates, I would hope to join the video pool.

I was hoping you could elaborate on the above statement. While comments from competitors could have started it, someone at the BOD had to bring up the motion. In the interest of full disclosure, can you let us know who? I want to know who not to vote for next time. (And yes, I did vote in the last USPA elections.)

Having seen the last several collegiate comps, I am beginning to get an idea of how things get done there. There seems to be a couple ways to change things:

1. Enough civilians make enough noise and a minor rule gets changed through a long drawn out democratic process. An example of this is the addition of two classes for 4-way in 2007 (Eloy). We started a big debate on the collegeskydiving.com forums several months prior, it got brought up at a meeting (I believe due to Mike at chuting star), voted on and it happened, although it was a watered down version of what most people wanted- seperate classes for civilians and military.

2. Any academy coach "issues a decree". I use the term with quotes because it is obviously more complicated than that, but the power of the Academy coaches to talk to people, pull strings, and make rule changes happen should not be ignored. Example: taking the exits out of the 4-way comp. I didn't know why this happened at first, but after talking to an Army coach in the loading area, I found out why- the USMA "only gets to jump helicopters" (meaning they don't have their own Super Otter like the AFA) so the exits were taken out and the first point was always a star (M) so that those poor kids who were deprived of an Otter and forced to jump helicopters would have a fair shot.

Now if I had gone to the CC and brought it to their attention that the only DZ less than 4 hours from my school jumps cessnas and suggested that they make the first point a star for every round, I undoubtedly would have been laughed out of the house- as it should be. The folly of taking out the exits should be obvious so I won't get into that. There was a great dislike of this change among pretty much every competitor that I talked too, so I know I'm not alone here.

I am sure that taking the exits out also went to a vote with the BOD/ CC but one might think that who is making the suggestions has a lot more to do with its passing than the validity of the suggestion.

With that in mind, lets examine this whole "no grad students" rule in light of the above examples. Who wants grad students gone? Well, I have a suspicious feeling that it's not the civilians- we are just happy to see more civilians in any form there. The above posters did a pretty good job blowing the "similiar to other NCAA sports" argument out of the water.

Mr. Wenger, if you say that you were not involved in this rule change then I believe you. I doubt you remember it, but we did talk briefly at the last collegiates. You seemed like a nice guy, so please don't take anything I say as an attack on you. But I'm just saying- someone who seems to be well connected has it in for grad students and I would like to know who so that I can vote accordingly in the next elections.

And why does said mystery person want grad students gone? We've hit every angle (I think) here and the general consensus is that there is no convincing argument for excluding grad students. Perhaps they have a personal grudge, I don't know.

I am not one to spread crazy conspiracy theories- perhaps the whole thing is my paradigm (college word). But I think I did a pretty good job using examples to back up my point so I welcome any criticism of my way of viewing things.

As a final thought- I would like to add that I think the Collegiate comp committee is a great group of people. I always had a great time when I went, and I can't think of anything else in the world that I would want to do during that time. Something said last time (maybe it was by Mr. Wenger, I forget) stuck in my head. When members of the USPA BOD were asked to raise their hand at a meeting if they had participated in the collegiate comp as a competitor, the vast majority of them confirmed that they were indeed former competitors. The implied thought was that today's collegiate competitors are the leaders of the sport and the organization tomorrow. Surely there is nothing to be gained by excluding some of them now.

[rgoetsch 0]

I'm responding to this post because it is the last in line...
I have judged at collegiate nats the last few years and have to say that Bill has always taken the best interest of ALL of the competitors to heart. The spirit of the competition is what keeps the same folks working the meet year after year- NO ONE involved is trying to get rid of the competition (unless my mother got a hold of someone and asked that her daughter and son in law were returned to family holidays :). It is a learning event for many and the host DZ often provides pro coaches at no costs to the teams.
If I remember correctly -one of the problems that arose with the grad student issue is how to define "full time". The undergrad students have to be carrying a full load of classes- but Grad programs vary with their requirements and length. Are the people signing the petition asking for anyone taking an college course to be eligible? If that is your intent then please include that when you contact the CC- just to be clear. If you have a good idea of how to judge what a full time grad program is include that as well.
A couple of the great things I've seen in the last few years of judging collegiates are low timers - I believe it was "Team 69" that entered two way- between the two competitors they had 69 jumps- or the first time a jumper has approached a tuffet... from that to watching 4 way teams turn 30 + points clean is an amazing way to spend the holidays.
Hope to see more competitors than ever in at Spaceland this year!

PS- since by the time we get to know a lot of the students they graduate- it would be fun to have the grad students back...even if they come to coach/judge/volunteer... :)

"If you're not on the centerline -you're out of control"

[AggieDave 6]

https://goomer.ncaa.org/wdbctx/LSDBi/LSDBi.LSDBi_LP_Search.D1_DisplayProposal?p_ID=1573&p_HeadFoot=1&p_CallCount=1&p_BylawTerms=ThisIsADummyPhraseThatWillNotBeDuplicated&p_IntentTerms=ThisIsADummyPhraseThatWillNotBeDuplicated&p_RationaleTerms=ThisIsADummyPhraseThatWillNotBeDuplicated

Once again, since the USPA wants to be like the NCAA, I'll consult their rules on the matter. To compete as a grad student in a NCAA event you have to be a full time student, as defined by the school. This is typically 9 scheduled hours, except under special circumstance.

Why is it so hard for the USPA to do any sort of research before drastically changing the rules?

Next they'll let DZs pick and choose what nationals events they would like to hold and not hold...Oh, wait, they already do that!

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[pms07 3]

[Jcoff89 0]

i love lamp

http://www.turboskydiving.com

[airtwardo 7]

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airtwardo said:

...I believe there should be separate categories at the collegiate nationals for both military and civilian schools...

Now THAT would more fairly represent the skills and accomplishments of these collegiate athletes in regard to the respective 'playing fields' they train on.

Interestingly, those separate civilian awards did exist back in the late 80s/early 90s...for just a few years (not sure when the awards were actually eliminated).

I was chair of the the collegiate committee at the time and we put forth the motion at the request of several civilian competitors. I purchased the plaques and arranged with Bill Ottley for USPA to maintain them. Bill Wenger actually found the money to pay for the civilian awards. I recall the new awards were eliminated, again at the request of civilian competitors, because they were not happy with the way it worked. The civilians still had to beat the military competitor's performance to be eligible for the "overall collegiate champion award" (and the scholarship $...). Anyway, it's been tried though maybe the problem was in execution rather than the idea itself...









Not to drift too far from the thread point Pat, but since you were involved at the time...what type of changes were done back then, and do you have any ideas pertaining to implementing a more contemporary set of rules and standards that might satisfy the overall needs of both the civilian and military school athletes?


I find it a bit disconcerting to read in this thread that things haven't changed much over the years as far as civilian competitors going to the nationals knowing for the most part the top spots will be AFA and USMA...and the challenge is really for a 4th place honorable mention.

I remember we looked at it like the Olympic track & field athletes must have when they went against the Russians way back when.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[pms07 3]

Well, to be accurate many civilian individual competitors and teams have won or placed in numerous events at collegiates over the years. Some (okay, maybe a few) of those had at least limited sponsorship in one form or another, even some world class coaches on occassion, etc. Not to the level the military academies have of course and the deck is clearly stacked in favor of AFA or USMA. I was a poor college student (and high school) skydiver that didn't go to collegiates because of the cost so understand the challenge.

I think the USPA needs to examine who they they want to attract as competitors, then figure out how best to do that. Add to that making the events as similar to the Nationals as possible within the limits of experience and safety.

Rolling the collegiates into Nationals is no answer. We might as well just eliminate the meet as we would get few competitors and they'll be lost in an environment that focuses more on the open class events and experienced folks.

Feedback on separate categories has been mixed in the past but maybe that is the way to go. If that''s what the civilian competitors clearly want, give it to them.

Given the typical size of the meet, you might end up with lots of classes/events, many having very few competitors. The year I was meet director I think we had 4 classes in 2 individual events plus overall in each, 2 classes RW and one in CRW. Trophies or medals to 3rd place in each for a total, I think, of 66 medals. I know it's public math but all that with just over 100 competitors. Further break that out into military and civilan classes and you probably have more awards than competitors... Still, maybe worth trying to see if there are enough competitors to support the events. Or you could break it up like Nationals RW; intermediate, advanced, open, where competitors gets to pick their class and compete against all, or not. Exclude "sponsored" teams from certain classes if you ccan figurre out how to do that.

Anyway, I might try to attend the collegiate meet this year and get some feedback. I’m confident Bill Wenger will already be doing that however. And for those that don’t know Bill, he was a collegiate competitor, coach and meet director many years before he was affiliated with AFA. He competed against AFA and USMA back in those days so understands the issue…perhaps much better than a few that have posted here…

[Jcoff89 0]

coach wenger, has there been any progress or any updates on this situation with the BOD? its gone quiet for the past couple days...

http://www.turboskydiving.com