Canopy size chart question

[Beachbum 0]

ok ... checked this chart in a link in the incidents forum, and it made me wonder.

http://www.bigairsportz.com/pdf/bas-sizingchart.pdf

I've read and been told plenty of times that anything 150 or smaller is considered "expert" due to the short line length/response speed, etc. ... yet this chart shows it's ok for a very light person to be on a 150 at 40 jumps, and a 135 at 100 jumps ... what's with that????

As long as you are happy with yourself ... who cares what the rest of the world thinks?

[billvon 2,990]

>yet this chart shows it's ok for a very light person to be on a 150 at 40
>jumps, and a 135 at 100 jumps ... what's with that????

Per that chart, someone who weighs 110 (at exit) and has 40 jumps should no go higher than a loading of about .7 - but someone who weighs 230 can go higher than 1:1. This is because smaller parachutes are faster, have shorter lines, are twitchier etc so you can't go to as high loadings as quickly.

That doesn't mean that a 150 is always going to be 'unsafe.' A sub-100 pound newbie woman may not load a 150 enough to be very dangerous, whereas a 230 pound linebacker may be a lot worse off under a 170.

[Beachbum 0]

That is the point of my question. If a 150 is "expert", isn't it still so regardless of wing loading? If a canopy reacts very quickly and more agressively due to short line length, that doesn't change much just because it is lightly loaded does it?

As long as you are happy with yourself ... who cares what the rest of the world thinks?

[billvon 2,990]

> If a 150 is "expert", isn't it still so regardless of wing loading?

No. At lighter loadings it is more docile.

>If a canopy reacts very quickly and more agressively due to short line length,
>that doesn't change much just because it is lightly loaded does it?

Yes, it does. Lighter loadings result in a less aggressive canopy no matter what the actual size. Small canopies just start out being a bit more aggressive.

[councilman24 37]

Read the definition of 'smallest allowed', the number that is 150. This is the absolute limit, not necessarily recommended. There may be exceptions to use this value at this lower weight and experience but not very many in my opinion. Use the middle of the range numbers.

Nothing is inconsistent with what you've been told. And you also comparing two different opinions. If they were inconsistent it would be surprising. You need to weigh all of the opinions to make decisions.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[Beachbum 0]

Yes, I read those definitions and understand that is the minimum he considers acceptable per each category. I'm still not seeing that chart as right at the low end though, so since I know he's associated with Aerodyne, checked the recommendations for a couple of their canopies ... Triathlon since it's got a rep as a very forgiving canopy good for low experience levels (plus I fly one), and the Pilot. The smallest Tri recommended for student/novice is a 175 at 158 lbs, and the smallest Pilot for the same category is a 188 at 207 lbs. Their chart for the Tri shows the 150 only for intermediate and above, with loading starting at 165 lbs, and the Pilot 150 the same. Maybe I'm a bit off as to what is considered novice, intermediate, etc. ... ??? I sure would not have thought that someone with 40 jumps would be considered intermediate? I guess it could also be my understanding of which canopies are docile and good for those just off student status ... what canopies at 150 ARE recomemnded for someone (a for instance from the chart) with 40 jumps and a 154 exit weight?

As long as you are happy with yourself ... who cares what the rest of the world thinks?

[BobbyR1990 0]

It really depends on experience in my opinion
I have 14 jumps and jump a 170 (my exit weight is 188lbs) I hope to be down to a 150 soon, but i also have close to 50 hours logged in cessna so i have a better understanding of when to flare than a most starters have.

[grimmie 186]

Quote

It really depends on experience in my opinion
I have 14 jumps and jump a 170 (my exit weight is 188lbs) I hope to be down to a 150 soon, but i also have close to 50 hours logged in cessna so i have a better understanding of when to flare than a most starters have.

[Floflo 0]

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It really depends on experience in my opinion
I have 14 jumps and jump a 170 (my exit weight is 188lbs) I hope to be down to a 150 soon, but i also have close to 50 hours logged in cessna so i have a better understanding of when to flare than a most starters have.

Yes, that's gonna hurt...

[JohanW 0]

[gets popcorn. sits down.] Good luck Bobby. You'll need it.

Beachbum, PD say you can fly a Silhouette 150 as a novice, if you're under 112#. (I actually know one such person. Yes, I was scared to break her.) Aerodyne may just not have test pilots that light ..

Johan.
I am. I think.

[Pilot150 0]

Quote

It really depends on experience in my opinion
I have 14 jumps and jump a 170 (my exit weight is 188lbs) I hope to be down to a 150 soon, but i also have close to 50 hours logged in cessna so i have a better understanding of when to flare than a most starters have.

I have 20 years accident free car driving, I am going to upgrade to a Buggati veyron, because I have a better understanding of when to brake than most learner drivers have.

[virgin-burner 1]

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It really depends on experience in my opinion
I have 14 jumps and jump a 170 (my exit weight is 188lbs) I hope to be down to a 150 soon, but i also have close to 50 hours logged in cessna so i have a better understanding of when to flare than a most starters have.

I have 20 years accident free car driving, I am going to upgrade to a Buggati veyron, because I have a better understanding of when to brake than most learner drivers have.

dont be so humble, you could drive a formula1 on my racetrack! just give me a little time to set up the carnage cameras!

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[fallfast69 3]

Quote

It really depends on experience in my opinion
I have 14 jumps and jump a 170 (my exit weight is 188lbs) I hope to be down to a 150 soon, but i also have close to 50 hours logged in cessna so i have a better understanding of when to flare than a most starters have.

You don't really believe what you just wrote, do you? ...cause I sure as hell don't - and you better be one tough cookie to learn the lessons you're going to learn the hard way.

I beg of you to spend some more time with your instructors before something bad happens.

[davelepka 4]

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I have 14 jumps and jump a 170 (my exit weight is 188lbs) I hope to be down to a 150 soon, but i also have close to 50 hours logged in cessna so i have a better understanding of when to flare than a most starters have.

You are playing a dangerous game. Your current canopy selection is VERY aggresive for a person with 14 jumps. Donwsizing further anytime in the next 150 jumps would be ill advised.

Simply knowing when to flare is not the only metric for judging canopy skill. Having the muscle memory and experience to make the right moves when things go 'off plan' is a far more important skill.

Anyone can flare a canopy at about the right time in ideal conditions. When outside factors such as weather, traffic/obstacles, or landing off comes into play, your ability to handle a canopy becomes much more important.

Additionally, 'about' 50 hours in Cessna will not help you in skydiving. Of those 50, how many were under the direct suprevision of an instructor? Half of them?

50 hours and 14 jumps does not make you an aviator, and it does not give a knowledge base with which to be a good decision maker.

FYI - I also have about 50 hours in Cessna, and I also have 5000+ jumps and 15 years in the sport. Trust me when I tell you you're on the wrong path.

[hchunter614 0]

What dropzone do you jump at? The general consensus for wing loading for students is .75:1 to .85:1 and you're already at 1.1:1

[kallend 2,026]

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Additionally, 'about' 50 hours in Cessna will not help you in skydiving. Of those 50, how many were under the direct suprevision of an instructor? Half of them?

.

Slightly OT, I had a glider license (as well as power) before I started skydiving, and I found the glider experience to transfer very well to canopy flying.

Things that you don't have to re-learn include:

Finding the airport and orienting yourself
Flying a pattern
Reading and interpreting the windsock/tetrahedron
Setting up a crab angle on base
The "accuracy trick"
Knowing and internalizing what an aerodynamic stall is
Knowing and internalizing about altitude loss in turns
Judging flare altitude
Using control during the flare

In other words, your mental overload is much reduced.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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It really depends on experience in my opinion
I have 14 jumps and jump a 170 (my exit weight is 188lbs) I hope to be down to a 150 soon, but i also have close to 50 hours logged in cessna so i have a better understanding of when to flare than a most starters have.

Most of the broken and dead people get there by not recognizing incorrect attitude soon enough and/or failing to instinctively apply the right control inputs. Not taking the time to learn that with a larger canopy increases your chances of visiting the orthopedic surgeon because it's harder to get right on smaller canopies and the penalties for mistakes goes up with your energy.

Experience as a fixed wing pilot has no effect on that.

Perfect straight-in landings on your 170 have done nothing to teach you low altitude turns, cross and down-wind landings, and landings with induced speed all of which will get combined to save your butt when cute girls flash the pilot on sunset load so you have extra altitude, your climbout is delayed because your buddy got hypoxic and got his foot stuck on a seat belt, you have a bad spot, land out, don't see an obstacle in the low light until the last instant, and turn 90 degrees at 50 feet for a down-wind landing on an asphalt road.

The 170 would be a better second canopy at 100 jumps, and 150 third at 250 jumps because that plus practice and training are what it takes to learn those survival skills and instinctively apply them without being in sensory overload once things go wrong.

Here's where you want to start http://www.bigairsportz.com/pdf/bas-sizingchart.pdf

Your local instructors may accept that 1 in 4 of us with testosterone go to the hospital or don't get the canopy size connection. Brian knows more than your instructors with over 10,000 jumps, a bunch of parachute designs under his belt, lots of canopy flight seminars taught, university training in psychology, and books written on parachutes + sports psychology.

I told this guy that a wing loading of 1.3 was a bad idea and he didn't listen.


http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3610363;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread


Other guys have died at that wing loading avoiding unseen obstacles but I don't care enough to look one up since you're probably not going to listen.

After a thousand jumps you'll think the same things, either because you got lucky on a few close calls or learned the hard way.

[BobbyR1990 0]

Quote

Quote

It really depends on experience in my opinion
I have 14 jumps and jump a 170 (my exit weight is 188lbs) I hope to be down to a 150 soon, but i also have close to 50 hours logged in cessna so i have a better understanding of when to flare than a most starters have.

Most of the broken and dead people get there by not recognizing incorrect attitude soon enough and/or failing to instinctively apply the right control inputs. Not taking the time to learn that with a larger canopy increases your chances of visiting the orthopedic surgeon because it's harder to get right on smaller canopies and the penalties for mistakes goes up with your energy.

Experience as a fixed wing pilot has no effect on that.

Perfect straight-in landings on your 170 have done nothing to teach you low altitude turns, cross and down-wind landings, and landings with induced speed all of which will get combined to save your butt when cute girls flash the pilot on sunset load so you have extra altitude, your climbout is delayed because your buddy got hypoxic and got his foot stuck on a seat belt, you have a bad spot, land out, don't see an obstacle in the low light until the last instant, and turn 90 degrees at 50 feet for a down-wind landing on an asphalt road.

The 170 would be a better second canopy at 100 jumps, and 150 third at 250 jumps because that plus practice and training are what it takes to learn those survival skills and instinctively apply them without being in sensory overload once things go wrong.

Here's where you want to start http://www.bigairsportz.com/pdf/bas-sizingchart.pdf

Your local instructors may accept that 1 in 4 of us with testosterone go to the hospital or don't get the canopy size connection. Brian knows more than your instructors with over 10,000 jumps, a bunch of parachute designs under his belt, lots of canopy flight seminars taught, university training in psychology, and books written on parachutes + sports psychology.

I told this guy that a wing loading of 1.3 was a bad idea and he didn't listen.


http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3610363;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread


Other guys have died at that wing loading avoiding unseen obstacles but I don't care enough to look one up since you're probably not going to listen.

After a thousand jumps you'll think the same things, either because you got lucky on a few close calls or learned the hard way.

I honestly did not think of that, i was just going by what people at my DZ told me.
After doing 2 jumps today I'm going back to the 190 for a while.
Thanks for the advice drew, and that isn't supposed to sound sarcastic

[hchunter614 0]

I'm sure everyone is glad to hear that you're upsizing (even a little). But you might consider going up another size or 2. Have you had any landings on a no wind day? Slight down wind? You'll still be coming in pretty hot in those situations.

[JohanW 0]

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I honestly did not think of that, i was just going by what people at my DZ told me.
After doing 2 jumps today I'm going back to the 190 for a while.
Thanks for the advice drew, and that isn't supposed to sound sarcastic

What? You're actually listening? You were supposed to die!

Seriously, I expected another student to maybe, maybe not make it into the Incidents forum. I could not be bothered to write a personalised rant again, just knowing here was another one that was not going to listen.

You proved my cynicism wrong.

Thank you.
May you have a long and prosperous career in skydiving and parachuting.

Johan.
I am. I think.

[fallfast69 3]

I'm so glad to hear you say that

Drew...thank you for taking the time to make that outstanding post.

[BobbyR1990 0]

I've had a few landings on the 190 with no wind and 1 going downwind (the winds did a complete 180 while i was on my downwind haha). They were alot different but i was able to land standing up and not blow out my knee's.

And i am really open to constructive criticism because you can seriously hurt yourself and even die doing this, and i want to be as safe as I can be, going to the 170 seemed like a good idea at the time but not now haha
Thanks again everyone!
And thanks johan, i just turned 19 and hope be in this sport for life

[mrbiceps 0]

Glad u listened Bobby. dont be in a hurry to downsize. I too copped alot of remarks about the 220 size canopy i was jumping and i just ignored them. I didnt down size until 180 jumps and i dont regret anything. I am still here and my ankles are still pointing the way they should be.