Help needed on flat turns

[phoenixlpr 0]

Hi,

I`ve started practicing flat turns. I have a problem: I still have a minor side swing when I`m releasing toggles.

Is it normal or am I doing something wrong?

[sid 1]

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Hi,

I`ve started practicing flat turns. I have a problem: I still have a minor side swing when I`m releasing toggles.

Is it normal or am I doing something wrong?

it sounds like you may be letting up too quickly. If you are practicing these by going into half brakes and then letting one up, make the motion more graceful. You can also compensate with a small and slight correction in the opposite direction with the other toggle.

As always, verify this info with your instructor! But well done for concentrating on this potentially life saving skill (it's got me out of the hole more than a few times)

Pete Draper,

Just because my life plan is written on the back of a Hooter's Napkin, it's still a life plan.... right?

[phoenixlpr 0]

Example:

I did a left 90 degree turn. I`ve stopped the turn with the right break. My canopy was over my head. I had a small left swing when I`ve let both toggles up.

[billvon 2,998]

>I had a small left swing when I`ve let both toggles up.

I would try not letting both up at the same time, but rather first 'matching' the toggles (i.e. let the lower one back up until it matches the higher one) then smoothly letting both back up evenly.

[dmetz 0]

How low can one safely execute a flat turn? How much alt do you lose?

_________________________________________

"If a vegetarian eats vegetables, what does a humanitarian eat?"

[billvon 2,998]

> How low can one safely execute a flat turn? How much alt do you lose?

That depends on the canopy, how heavily it's loaded, the amount of turn you want, and how well you want to come out of it. But you can do it down to a few hundred feet. I've flat turned bigger canopies (Tri-190's) 180 degrees at ~100 feet and landed acceptably (i.e. not hard.) Interestingly, the higher performance canopies seem to do slightly better on flat turns; it may be that they have a deeper/more effective flare and you can use that flare power to flatten the turn more aggressively.

Hopefully it goes without saying that you should practice this up high before you try it down low, and if you _do_ try it down low, to start small (i.e. flat turn 30 degrees, not 90 or 180.)

[DrewGPM 0]

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How low can one safely execute a flat turn? How much alt do you lose?

If you have the right canopy set up and the skills to do it, you can actually GAIN altitude during a flat turn. I've seen a few guys do it...pretty damn amazing!

What YOU can do under YOUR canopy...that's a different question.

There are some great canopy drills listed on http://www.bigairsportz.com/art-skilldrills.php. Everyone should try these. Please make sure you try it up high before you think about trying a flat turn near the ground. Get used to the feeling, then you can consider trying them on landing.

Once you know how to do a flat turn, you'll know the answer to your question. If you've stuck yourself in a bad spot, and going straight is super dangerous, you are NEVER too low for a properly executed flat turn. But you gott know how to do it first.

After reading Billvon's post, I should say that I'm talking about turns less than 90 degrees. The lowest I've done a 180 flat turn was 200 feet.

[Avion 0]

How to practice flat turns:

1) Bring both toggles down to half brakes, let the canopy stablize, then a) let one toggle up slightly until you start turning, stop the turn by bring that toggle back to half brakes. b) pull one toggle down slightly until you start to turn, stop the turn by raising that toggle back to half brakes.

2) Repeat these excersizes at 3/4 bakes.

3) At full flare, less than a stall, let one toggle up slightly until you start to turn, stop the turn by returning that toggle to full flare.

The goals of these excersizes are to:

1) Learn which method, letting up or pulling down, results in the flatest turn on the canopy you are flying, results will vary with the canopy.

2) Learn which method results in a faster but more banked turn on the canopy you are flying.

Finally, you can combine the two methods, pulling one toggle down and letting one toggle up, at either 1/2 or 3/4 brakes, for a turn that is inbetween flatest and faster.

As always, check with your instructors before attempting theses excersizes, and only pratice them above your harddeck.

Cheers

[billvon 2,998]

>Bring both toggles down to half brakes, let the canopy stablize, then a) let
>one toggle up slightly until you start turning, stop the turn by bring that
> toggle back to half brakes. b) pull one toggle down slightly until you start
> to turn, stop the turn by raising that toggle back to half brakes.

I agree that this is a good thing to practice, and indeed this exercise is called out in the SIM as a "braked turn" exercise. Keep in mind, though, that this is not the same as a maximum performance flat turn. In a braked turn, you start by flaring evenly then letting up one toggle. In a flat turn you sort of do the opposite. You start the turn with one toggle then immediately 'flatten' it with the other toggle. Continue in the turn, gradually increasing the pressure on both toggles, until you are at the desired angle. Then let them both back up. At that point the canopy should neither dive nor float; if it just resumes level flight you have done a perfect flat turn. The reason you want to come out of it that way is that if you have to flare immediately you can.

[phoenixlpr 0]

Thanks for your answer!

[Avion 0]

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You start the turn with one toggle then immediately 'flatten' it with the other toggle. Continue in the turn, gradually increasing the pressure on both toggles, until you are at the desired angle. Then let them both back up.

I agree that the excersizes are more accruately described as 'turning in brakes.' What you describe is simular to the describion of a carving turn, that is, a turn that maintains a level altitude through the turn, although in common use speed, in addition to normal full flight, is first acquired before the turn is made.

So, what your saying is that a 'flat turn' is like a low speed application of the carving turn techinque. On the other hand, I suppose that a carving turn could be called a high speed appication of the flat turn techinque

Thanks for helping me realize that these two turns are related.

Cheers

[phoenixlpr 0]

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3) At full flare, less than a stall, let one toggle up slightly until you start to turn, stop the turn by returning that toggle to full flare.

I`m sorry. I can`t understand that. Think again ;).

[Avion 0]

I meant hold the toggles down as far as possible without stalling the canopy.

On larger canopies, you can pull the toggles all the way down without stalling the canopy. On smaller ones, the stall point is above the point of full extention of your arms. So, if you hold the toggles down far enough on a smaller canopy, the canopy will stall, you will lose all lift, and the canopy will fold in half. It's quite dramitic. I just got my canopy to do that on purpose in order to learn just where the stall point is on it. I had to wrap the brake lines twice around each hand to make it happen. I have a relatively large caonopy, a 210 Spectre.

[phoenixlpr 0]

I`m sorry. I was not a real question. We don`t fly the same kindda canopy and not having similar wing load either. I think a Pilot150 might fly a bit different than a Spectre210.

Trust me, I might know what is stall. For your information a can not stall my canopy with toggles.

Thanks for your efforts.

PS.: Sometimes it is a good idea to check other`s profile ;)

[DrewGPM 0]

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How to practice flat turns...

There is a thread where Brian Germain talks about flat turns. It starts out talking about yaw, but talks about flat turns.

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1607399;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread

[kelpdiver 2]

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I`m sorry. I was not a real question. We don`t fly the same kindda canopy and not having similar wing load either. I think a Pilot150 might fly a bit different than a Spectre210.

Trust me, I might know what is stall. For your information a can not stall my canopy with toggles.

but that shouldn't a function of having a pilot150. Your brake lines are longer and you can't get 100% of your flare.
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So the reverse toggle turn would be a slow to initiate, slow moving flat turn, while the toggle then flare flat turn is very fast in both regards, right?

Beyond the obvious, when might each be the preferred choice?

[phoenixlpr 0]

For your information, you don`t have to stall your canopy to get out 100% flare.

[DrewGPM 0]

Not sure about your schedule, but see if you can't get away long enough to attend a canopy seminar. Brian Germain will be in Sweden and Denmark in July. If you can't make it to one of those, see if he'll come to Finland for you. It'll be worth it!

http://www.bigairsportz.com/schedule.php

[phoenixlpr 0]

Thanks. I think I`m going to be in Hungary in July.

I think I`m going to get those skills I need in the next 2 months. My beast is flying great, but I have to learn a lot for survive it.