Ron 10 #51 April 25, 2005 QuoteThe statistics show VERY clearly that no/low pull fatalities have declined dramatically regardless of how you think new skydivers are behaving. Do you have any proof that it is just due to the AAD? Cause as you love to say "There could be other factors that need to be looked at" Such as: Low pulls are not seen as "cool" anymore. The advent of freeflying has raised the pull altitudes. New canopies open slower, so people pull higher. Audibles have become MUCH more common. Gear has become MUCH more reliable. So you have plenty of factors, but claim its only one....Seems like you need to do more homework."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #52 April 25, 2005 QuoteI give up, no matter how I say it no matter how well I know myself I'm somehow LESS safe because I choose not to jump without a cypres... No you still don't get it....I'll try this ONE more time. You ARE less safe if by having a CYPRES you go on skydives you would not without a CYPRES. Therefore you negate the added saftey of a CYPRES by increasing your risk level. How hard is that to understand? So as we say over and over and over again. Don't do a jump with a CYPRES that you would not do without one. If you would not do a freefly jump with a newbie without a CYPRES, then you should not do it at all."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #53 April 25, 2005 QuoteI've yet to meet one of these people that some claim are becoming the norm. Maybe a few exist, but I don't think they're the norm. Far from it. Here ya go: QuoteI won't do freefly jumps with newbies that are learning to freefly until i get my cypres back. The chances of jumping with someone that isn't yet stable just isn't worth it to me. I'll stick to jumping with more experienced people. I do realize accidents still happen even with experienced jumpers, but it's my decision. I don't think i need to re-evaluate jumping because of that. She will not without a CYPRES, but if she has one she will go on more dangerous jumps. Increasing her level of risk due to having a CYPRES. Going on more dangerous jumps just because she has a CYPRES."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #54 April 25, 2005 Quote There is no dumb ass skydiver out there who is knowingly passing his skills because he has a cypres who would not do the same stupid thing without the cypres Quote May 1994: Anchorage, Alaska - Expert CYPRES: A first time surf board jumper was unstable for most of the descent. On cutting away the board only one side released and the jumper, who had the hand deploy in his hand, was afraid to release it for fear of entanglement. CYPRES activated at the correct height and activated the reserve. Fortunately the DZ owner had required the sky surfer to use a rig with CYPRES. *Allowing folks to do thing WITH that they would not be allowed without. July 1994: Dortmund, Germany - Expert CYPRES: A skydiver was unable to pull her hand deploy. At about 2000 ft. she made the decision to deploy the reserve but in spite of using both hands was unable to do so. CYPRES worked as expected and activated her reserve. She later said she fully trusted CYPRES and had waited "patiently" until the appropriate altitude was reached. * Very well trained..Well trained to trust a CYPRES. August 1995: IItaly - Expert CYPRES: A skydiver exited at 3,800 m. When he prepared for opening, he became unstable keeping his hand deploy in his hand. At 600 m he realized he was very low, and he decided to do nothing but let CYPRES open his reserve. CYPRES worked as expected, and the jumper had an uneventful landing. 13. September 1997 4 Expert CYPRES: A 4-way team didn't hear there audio altitude warning device. All 4 CYPRES activated simultanously. The average time under reserve was 16 seconds. * Can't say they were thinking about saftey can ya? 16.July 1999 Moscow,Russia: A skydiver with 182 jumps experienced a hard pull on her BOC handdeploy. She tried to solve this problem until the CYPRES fired. She had the same problem already one year ago (May 98) when she had approx.80 jumps. As on the jump in 1998, she was now saved the second time by the CYPRES * WOW!! 2 saves same person. 24.May 2003 Germany, Gera: After a normal freefall with separation in 1200 meters the skydiver attempts to pull his BOC pilotchute at approx. 900 meters, but does not find it. He decides to pull his cutaway handle. The first and only attempt to find the reserve handle is negative. At this moment the jumper decides to go into stable box – position and to wait for his CYPRES to activate. The skydiver was wearing camera and was filming the DZ hangar, which became bigger and bigger. 12 sec. canopy ride after CYPRES activation. *Tell me he didn't rely on the neat toy? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These are from just a quick scan...I know of two others that I am missing... But you can read them all if you like. The modern AAD is great. However as you see the fact that they are great...Has made people complacient."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #55 April 25, 2005 QuoteQuoteAADs (particularly CYPRES) are proven life savers. Of this there is absolutely no doubt. Yet some posters, particularly Ron and to a lesser extent Hooknswoop and Billvon, come over very negatively about their usage even though I think they use AADs themselves. No, my problem is people like you who encourage their use over, not in addition, to training. People like you are my problem. Your attitude and your lack of being able to understand a simple problem of skydivers using a CYPRES to replace training, practice and common sense. Can you point to one single post I have made ever that advocates less training?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #56 April 25, 2005 QuoteCan you point to one single post I have made ever that advocates less training? In the same way you say we "come over very negatively about their usage"...Which is FAR from the truth. You come accross as an AAD being a replacement for training. We advocate not using an AAD as a replacement for training and common sense. We advocate not doing more dangerous jumps just because you have an AAD. By opposing us so vocally you must support the very ideals we are against."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #57 April 25, 2005 QuoteQuoteI've yet to meet one of these people that some claim are becoming the norm. Maybe a few exist, but I don't think they're the norm. Far from it. Here ya go: QuoteI won't do freefly jumps with newbies that are learning to freefly until i get my cypres back. The chances of jumping with someone that isn't yet stable just isn't worth it to me. I'll stick to jumping with more experienced people. I do realize accidents still happen even with experienced jumpers, but it's my decision. I don't think i need to re-evaluate jumping because of that. She will not without a CYPRES, but if she has one she will go on more dangerous jumps. Increasing her level of risk due to having a CYPRES. Going on more dangerous jumps just because she has a CYPRES. No Ron. She is not going on jumps she is unqualified for just because she has a CYPRES, she is managing her risk on jumps she is qualified for in a way that is her business and not yours. Her friend, and mine, was killed coaching a newbie who corked. His CYPRES was not turned on. IMO anyone that does freefly coaching with newbies and no CYPRES is crazy.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #58 April 25, 2005 QuoteNo Ron. She is not going on jumps she is unqualified for just because she has a CYPRES, she is managing her risk on jumps she is qualified for in a way that is her business and not yours. Her friend, and mine, was killed coaching a newbie who corked. His CYPRES was not turned on. IMO anyone that does freefly coaching with newbies and no CYPRES is crazy. So you do advocate depending on a CYPRES to allow you to do more dangerous things? Do you drive faster since your car has airbags?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Icon134 0 #59 April 25, 2005 <<>> OK, I don't want to jump period without some kind of AAD in my rig... not because I think I'm incapable of being safe... or becasuse I'm doing things over my head... but because having an AAD is just one more way I can migitate the risks involved in the sport of skydiving. This doesn't mean I rely on my AAD... (I don't...) It doesn't mean I'm willing to push my limits... It doesn't mean there isn't a chance I won't get hurt doing this sport... It also doesn't mean that if I had started jumping 20 years ago that I wouldn't have as big an issue jumping with out a AAD... It just makes sense to put it in there... In 4-way RW jumping it is possible to get clocked in the head pretty good and get knocked out... if an AAD can save my life by god I'm gonna wear an AAD. (Oh, I'll also wear an appropiate helmet.) ScottLivin' on the Edge... sleeping with my rigger's wife... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #60 April 25, 2005 NO JUMPER who will put themselves into a worst case scenario just because they have a device that MAY REDUCE the risk in the worst case is going to learn a damn thing from being talked to. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "What a fool believes, he sees ...." ... followed by a guitar lick. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #61 April 25, 2005 QuoteOK, I don't want to jump period without some kind of AAD in my rig... not because I think I'm incapable of being safe... or becasuse I'm doing things over my head... but because having an AAD is just one more way I can migitate the risks involved in the sport of skydiving. This doesn't mean I rely on my AAD... (I don't...) It doesn't mean I'm willing to push my limits... No offense but if you require one to jump then you both depend on it, and use it to allow you to push your limits. But that CAN be OK. As long as you don't use it to allow you to do dumb things...An perfect example of a dumb thing is anything you think you need an AAD for, or something you would not do without one. QuoteIn 4-way RW jumping it is possible to get clocked in the head pretty good and get knocked out... if an AAD can save my life by god I'm gonna wear an AAD. (Oh, I'll also wear an appropiate helmet.) VERY few CYPRES fires are due to a jumper being knocked out. Most are due to a jumper just flat screwing up."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Icon134 0 #62 April 25, 2005 I do not rely on my AAD... I hope it will save my life in the event of something happening to me which is beyond my control. Quote It doesn't mean I'm willing to push my limits... I wrote this then after reading it realized that its not really what I wanted to say... I will push my limits... but I have decided to opt out of doing jumps because I thought it was too far above my head/something stupid... ScottLivin' on the Edge... sleeping with my rigger's wife... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ladyskydiver 0 #63 April 25, 2005 QuoteI won't do freefly jumps with newbies that are learning to freefly until i get my cypres back. The chances of jumping with someone that isn't yet stable just isn't worth it to me. I'll stick to jumping with more experienced people. I do realize accidents still happen even with experienced jumpers, but it's my decision. I don't think i need to re-evaluate jumping because of that. Sunny...you're misunderstanding my point. Let me try and give you an example of what I'm talking about. I'm talking about a jumper who goes on a 2 way and is completely comfortable. Throughout the day, more and more jumpers get added to this dive. The 2 way ends up becoming a 6 way and the jumper is very uncomfortable about the jump, BUT the jumper decides to go on that jump BECAUSE they have a Cypress. The Cypress allows the jumper to have "bigger balls" than if they didn't have the Cypress. In this above example, the jumper should have said that the 6 way is above their experience and/or comfort level and backed off the jump not stayed on the jump because of the Cypress.Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #64 April 25, 2005 No, John, it's not about qualified or not. She has determined that freefly coach jumps are above her acceptable risk threshold. "I won't do freefly jumps with newbies that are learning to freefly until i get my cypres back. The chances of jumping with someone that isn't yet stable just isn't worth it to me. I'll stick to jumping with more experienced people." So she uses a Cypres to offset the risk she isn't willing to accept. How does an AAD affect a jumper’s acceptable risk threshold? Explain to me how a Cypres can allow a jumper to do jumps they consider too risky? Isn't that like me going kayaking in class 5 rapids even though I know that it would be too risky for me, but because I have a PFD and a helmet, I run the rapids anyway? Isn’t that like driving faster and taking more chances because the new car has side impact airbags? I’ll say this again: Everyone should always jump with an AAD. No one should exceed their risk threshold because of an AAD. Also, you didn’t explain to me how I am supposed to make sure no one misunderstands when you say someone ALWAYS misunderstands……….. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
metalslug 36 #65 April 25, 2005 I believe HooknSwoop made my argument for me in his own post here. In short, he agreed that when doing wingsuit jumps (a higher risk type of jump), he offset that increased risk by using a larger canopy (Safire 189) instead of the VX-60 that he would use on most other "lower risk" jumps. Would Derek have ever accepted a "dare" to do a wingsuit jump with his VX-60? Only he can answer that but his answer is probably; "Why take the unecessary risk?" I believe this analogy is not very different from a jumper that chooses to offset the increased risk of freefly by insisting on a good AAD. Would they "dare" jump without one? Maybe, but why take that unecessary risk? -No 'mericans were harmed during the making of this post. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
adamsr 0 #66 April 25, 2005 First of all before i start this post, I think the cypres is a brilliant device, I know it has saved many lives, I use a cypres, and would prefer to use one on every jump I make. Now on to the post:- You are taking the point that is trying to be made out of context, billvon isn't trying to challenge skydivers to jump without a cypres, he just wants people to not RELY on their cypres. I believe the only time a cypres should fire is if the skydiver is knocked out or incapacitated in some way so they are unable to pull themselves. Now i know you're gonna come back with some statistic or story of some person that is alive now that wouldn't be without thier cypres. I am not in any way wishing people in this situation had died, I am just saying it is very irresponsible and frankly not a great idea to lose altitude awareness, not pull or conciously wait for your cypres to pull for you. Also i'm not saying i'm perfect, i learnt my lesson early, losing altitude aweness on a student jump, ending up pulling at about 2800 (rather than 3500) and the bollocking i rightfully received ensured it never happened again!! The cypres has undoubtedly reduced deaths in skydivng from no-pulls, but i would be interested in knowing the exact statisics showing:- 1. Deaths from no pulls per year pre cypres 2. The number of cypres saves per year due to no pulls I would not be suprised at all if the number of cypres saves is MUCH higher than the number of deaths previously, showing that the attitude some skydivers have has actually incresed the number of low/no pulls. This is the point people like billvon are getting at. If you jump with a cypres, jump thinking it isn't there and the only thing that's gonna save your ass is you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #67 April 25, 2005 It was a Crossfire 104 for the birdman jumps. A larger canopy lowers the risk level. Using a larger canopy for birdman jumps is using the right tool for the job. I was jumping tghe 104 anyway because I hadn't jumped in 6 months and felt the VX-60 would be too much because I wasn't current with it. So, I really didn't upsize to fly birdman, I was jumping the 104 anyway. Going to a larger main isn't using a safety device to exceed my risk threshold. I didn't go over my acceptable risk threshold. That is completely different from using an AAD to justify exceeding your acceptable risk level. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #68 April 25, 2005 QuoteA PFD and helemt is safety gear. a Helmet and Cypres is safety gear. Interesting. Is someone who refuses to shoot class 2 or above without a PFD less safe than the person who's cocky enough to leave it on the dock? _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #69 April 25, 2005 QuoteI do not rely on my AAD... If you would not jump without it....You are relying on it. QuoteOK, I don't want to jump period without some kind of AAD in my rig... not because I think I'm incapable of being safe... or becasuse I'm doing things over my head... but because having an AAD is just one more way I can migitate the risks involved in the sport of skydiving. QuoteI will push my limits... but I have decided to opt out of doing jumps because I thought it was too far above my head/something stupid... If you don't use an AAD as a way to do dumber stuff...Then this whole thread does not apply to you at all. But if you had a gear check before exit and found out that you forgot to turn your AAD on....If you decide not to go, then you do rely on it. If you will not jump without an AAD...you do rely on it. All we ever want is for people to not use an AAD as a pass to do stupid things. the easiest way to decide if you are trusting the CYPRES is to ask yourself if you would do the jump without it....If the answer is no, then you are trusting it and relying on it."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #70 April 25, 2005 I'm surprised Ron missed this, since he loves the SIM so much. Section 6-2.C-3 "Automatic activation devices are recommended because of the high potential for collisions and loss of altitude awareness associated with freeflying." http://www.uspa.org/publications/SIM/2004SIM/section6.htm#62 The USPA recomends AAD's for freeflying. Under which conditions should a USPA coach ignore a gear recomendation on a coach dive? Should a coach teach students to ignore USPA recomendations? _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #71 April 25, 2005 QuoteIs someone who refuses to shoot class 2 or above without a PFD less safe than the person who's cocky enough to leave it on the dock? That is NOT what I am saying. How did you get that out of: "Harness - safety gear. Failures have killed people. That is like saying a kayak is a piece of safety gear. It isn't. No kayak and you can't go kayaking. A rig is required gear to skydive like a kayak is required to go kayaking. A PFD and helemt is safety gear. a Helmet and Cypres is safety gear. "?????? Like I said, a PFD and helmet doesn't mean I can safely run class 5 rapids in a a kayak. You should always wear a PFD and helmet while whitewater kayaking. What you shouldn't do is go whitewater kayaking in rapids you are not capable of handling just because you have a PFD and helmet. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #72 April 25, 2005 QuoteI believe this analogy is not very different from a jumper that chooses to offset the increased risk of freefly by insisting on a good AAD. Would they "dare" jump without one? Maybe, but why take that unecessary risk? Only you know if you are dependant on an AAD. But if you are afraid to make a jump without it...then some kind of focus on retraining is most likley in order."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jlmiracle 7 #73 April 25, 2005 QuoteQuote>Yet some posters, particularly Ron and to a lesser extent > Hooknswoop and Billvon, come over very negatively about their usage . . . . Since you misunderstand my position, let me restate it as clearly as possible: I recommend the use of AAD's for most skydivers, since they increase the odds of survival when the jumper forgets to pull on time. Anyone who uses an AAD should still be able to skydive without one. By having the skills to skydive without one AND using one, they are increasing their level of safety. There's ALWAYS someone who receives the wrong message. Kallend - if you don't get it, Jumper03 explained it perfectly in another thread. JudyBe kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 1 #74 April 25, 2005 QuoteOnly you know if you are dependant on an AAD. But if you are afraid to make a jump without it...then some kind of focus on retraining is most likley in order. And what relevant training exactly would you suggest? Go read my previous post. Do you agree or disagree?My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #75 April 25, 2005 QuoteThe USPA recomends AAD's for freeflying. The same USPA that lowered the standards to be an AFFI? The same USPA that backed down from making a better student program, the ISP, mandatory? I'll say it again. AAD's are great, just don't use them to go beyond your acceptable risk threshold. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
