Why negativity about AADs is disturbing

[AndyMan 7]

I understand.

A Kayak is like a Harness. Required for participation.

An AAD is like a PFD. Not required for participation, but strongly advised and required by law in some places.

Why is someone who Kayaks without a PFD unsafe, but someone who jumps without an AAD simply demonstrating they don't depend on it?

Why is "I always wear a PFD and helmet while whitewater kayaking" different than "I always use an AAD while freeflying"?

_Am

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You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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I understand.

A Kayak is like a Harness. Required for participation.

An AAD is like a PFD. Not required for participation, but strongly advised and required by law in some places.

Yep, we are on the same page here.

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Why is someone who Kayaks without a PFD unsafe, but someone who jumps without an AAD simply demonstrating they don't depend on it?

I didn't say that someone that kayaks without a PFD is unsafe. They are not being as safe as they could be. I didn't say that someone that jumps without an AAD is simply demonstrating they don't depend on it.

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Why is "I always wear a PFD and helmet while whitewater kayaking" different than "I always use an AAD while freeflying"?

They aren't different. Using an AAD/PFD/Helmet, etc are great.

I don't have a lot of kayaking experience. I can't roll a kayak. I have no business running class rapids in a kayak, it is way beyond my acceptable risk threashold. If I said, "i can run run class 5 because I have a PFD and a helmet", that would be wrong/bad.

If I though anything over a 100-way was beyond my acceptable risk level, either because of my abilities or because I felt 100+ ways are too risky for me, to say, "Well, I'll do the 200-way because now I have a cypres." would be wrong/bad.

Derek

[AndyMan 7]

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If I though anything over a 100-way was beyond my acceptable risk level, either because of my abilities or because I felt 100+ ways are too risky for me, to say, "Well, I'll do the 200-way because now I have a cypres." would be wrong/bad.

You criticised Sunshine for always using an AAD on coach freefly jumps, even though she is fully qualified. Clearly, skill level is not part of your equation.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[ChrisL 2]

I dont really understand how heated this topic gets.

1. I currently use an AAD

2. I have jumped without one in the past

3. I would jump without one in the future if mine
went out of date and I had to wait a while for a new one
(I would get a new one)

4. Having an AAD would not make an unacceptibly risky jump
more acceptible to me.

If a particular jump was too risky for me to consider making without an AAD, I would not make that jump with an AAD either.

I believe that this:

"Always jump like you would if you had no AAD, even if you have one"

is the essence of what Billvon and Ron and Hooknswoop are trying to say.

I find it very difficult, if not impossible, to find any fault with that sentiment.

__

My mighty steed

[Hooknswoop 19]

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You criticised Sunshine for always using an AAD on coach freefly jumps, even though she is fully qualified.

No, I think she is wrong for using an AAD to do something she considers beyond her acceptable risk threshold.

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Clearly, skill level is not part of your equation.

No, I feel it is also wrong to do something beyond your ability level, like my kayaking examply clearly shows, just because you have an optional safety device. That is why I said: "either because of my abilities or because I felt 100+ ways are too risky for me"

I don't think a Cypres should be used to compensate for ability or to exceed your acceptable risk threshold.

If someone posts that they don't think they can handle a 200-way, but would jump on a 200-way if they had a Cypres, I would think that was wrong also.

How did you get that "Clearly, skill level is not part of your equation." when I specifically said it was?

I keep saying the same thing and you keep reading it differently.

Derek

[AndyMan 7]

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No, I think she is wrong for using an AAD to do something she considers beyond her acceptable risk threshold.

Whitewater kayaking without a PFD is beyond your risk threshold. Are you wrong?

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[nicknitro71 0]

Wow, where to begin?

This is the way I see it and it's just my opinion.

Let us assume there would be no FAA regulations whatsoever.

Here is my take:

I would jump my BASE gear most of the time and pull at 500' because I trust it more than any other skydiving gear.

If I decide to jump a small loaded elliptical I would jump it in a dual container system with a reserve loaded no more than 1.2, an RSL, and I would pull by 3000'. So I added extra pieces of equipment because I don't trust my main alone to save my life. This main is just for fun, if it works.

If I had to make a 40 way with jumpers with various skill levels I would rig out a BASE rig with a AAD set to fire @ 500' and I would pull @ 800' below everybody after a very long track. I added the AAD because I don't trust the people around me not to take my life away.

The same 40 way but with very, very experienced RW jumpers then I would do it without AAD because I trust the people on the jump not to take my life away.

Derek you said that an AAD should not be an excuse to push the limit or getting in a skydive that otherwise you would not. Well we all take chances, we all have our limits. I would take my chance to get in the first 40 way but only if I had a AAD. Is this a wrong attitude towards safety? Maybe, maybe not.

For the vast majority of my jumps I would have no problems not using an AAD but for some I would want one not because I don't trust my skills but because I don't trust the people around me but I still want to make the jump.

Memento Audere Semper

903

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Whitewater kayaking without a PFD is beyond your risk threshold. Are you wrong?

The PFD shouldn't influence that decision. Whitewater kayaking is either beyond my acceptable risk threshold or it isn’t. A PFD doesn’t change that.

If I can’t roll a kayak or paddle well enough to handle the water, a PFD doesn’t change that.

If I feel that whitewater kayaking is beyond my risk threshold, then whitewater kayaking with a PFD is beyond my risk threshold.

If I feel that whitewater kayaking is beyond my risk threshold, then whitewater kayaking with a PFD and a helmet is beyond my risk threshold.

A PFD doesn’t affect my acceptable risk threshold. If I felt whitewater kayaking was within my acceptable risk threshold, I would do it and wear a PFD and helmet while doing it.

Derek

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Derek you said that an AAD should not be an excuse to push the limit or getting in a skydive that otherwise you would not. Well we all take chances, we all have our limits. I would take my chance to get in the first 40 way but only if I had a AAD. Is this a wrong attitude towards safety?

If you use the Cypres to allow you to go beyond your acceptable risk threshold, then I think it is a wrong attitude towards safety.

You should never go beyond your acceptable risk threshold, because by its very definition, you are now at an unacceptable risk level by your own determination.

The purpose of safety gear, helmet, AAD, PFD, whatever, is to increase safety, not allow you to do something you either don’t have the ability to do or think is too dangerous.

Some people realize that is an abstract concept, but really very simple. Some people keep trying to twist words and read into things.

Derek

[Ron 10]

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Go read my previous post. Do you agree or disagree?

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I believe one shouldn't go out of their way to increase the risk because they wear an AAD but quite honestly, there's a good reason why some people won't do a 100 way or fly with AFF students ... etc, without one.

I agree that you should not increase the risk of a jump just becasue they have an AAD.

But, if there is a good reason to not do a jump without an AAD...That should be enough of a reason to not do the jump at all.

Do you see that line of logic?

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And what relevant training exactly would you suggest?

Depends on WHY they would not jump without one.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[nicknitro71 0]

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If you use the Cypres to allow you to go beyond your acceptable risk threshold, then I think it is a wrong attitude towards safety.

Your definition of safety

Memento Audere Semper

903

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Your definition of safety

Yep, and if EVERYONE thinks I am wrong, that is OK. It's just my opinion. Kinda funny that I am the conservative one though.

Derek

[Ron 10]

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You criticised Sunshine for always using an AAD on coach freefly jumps, even though she is fully qualified. Clearly, skill level is not part of your equation.

No, he criticised her for NOT doing them when she did not have an AAD.

Her skill was never questioned...Her allowing her danger level to be increased when she had one WAS.

If I thought I could not be safe doing AFF without an AAD, I would not do AFF at all. As it is, I think I can do AFF with an acceptable degree of saftey...I then ADD an AAD.

I don't do a skydive with an AAD that I would not do without. She just said she did, and thats kinda the point of Mine, Hooks, and Bills point.

Don't do more dangerous things that you would not do with an AAD with one.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[nicknitro71 0]

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The purpose of safety gear, helmet, AAD, PFD, whatever, is to increase safety, not allow you to do something you either don’t have the ability to do or think is too dangerous.

On my first jump I had the abitity of doing nothing. I still did it, no AAD, and I don't know if I could have acted right if I had a mal. I took my chances and lived.

My first BASE jump was out of a notorious cliff in CA. I had something like 40-50 skydives. Did I have the ability to react properly if I had a 180? I don't think so but I still did it and lived.

We all take our chances, if yours are different than mine it does not make YOU or ME wrong, we are just different, that's all.

Derek, I DON'T think you are wrong but it's not set in stones like you are putting it.

Memento Audere Semper

903

[Hooknswoop 19]

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We all take our chances, if yours are different than mine it does not make YOU or ME wrong, we are just different, that's all.

I think you are talking about choosing our acceptable risk threshold. I agree that this is different for everyone. I myself have a high acceptable risk threshold. I don't have a problem with people having high or low acceptable risk thresholds as long as they are honest with themselves.

This isn;t about where people should place their acceptable risk threashold, it is about exceeding that threshold because they have an AAD.

Derek

[nicknitro71 0]

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it is about exceeding that threshold because they have an AAD.

Exactly, but the threshold, in the case of the hairy 40 way, varies with the presence or absence of the AAD.

Memento Audere Semper

903

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Exactly, but the threshold, in the case of the hairy 40 way, varies with the presence or absence of the AAD.

No, it doesn't. The actual risk of having a problem is the same regardless of the presence of an AAD or not.

The individuals acceptable risk threshold is a personal determination of how much risk they find personally acceptable. For example, based on my abilities in this case, kayaking class 5 whitewater is beyond my personnal acceptable risk threshold. Adding a PFD to the equation makes absolutely no difference.

If a 40-way is beyond your aceptable risk threshold, an AAD doesn't make the 40-way any safer. You do have a higher chance of surviving it with an AAD though which is why you should always wear one.

for an anology, running a red light carries a certain level of risk. In this case the risk is getting T-boned by a car that has a green light. Having airbags decreases the chances of injury or death but does not change the risk of getting T-boned. That means if running a red light and exposing yourself to a good chance of getting T-boned is beyong your acceptable risk threshold, then having airbags doesn't change that. It is beyond your acceptable risk threshold regardless of the airbags because airbags do not decrese the odds of a collision, they only decrease the odds of getting hurt/killed from that collision.

An AAD doesn't decrease your odds of the freefly student corking and hitting you, it just increases the odds that you will have a reserve out if you are unable to deploy anything because of the collision.

Substitute red light for free fly coach jump and airbag for AAD and the concept is exactly the same.

I wouldn't run a red light with or without airbags. I wouldn't kayak class 5 whitewater with or without a PFD and if someone wouldn't coach new freeflyers without an AAD, then they shouldn't with an AAD.

The odds of a collision are the same even with an AAD which is why you shouldn't exceed your acceptable risk threshold simply because you have an AAD/airbag/PFD.

What are the odds of a collision while coaching a freefly jump? Are these odds beyond your acceptable risk threshold? What are the odds of a collision while coaching a freefly jump when you have an AAD? They are the same odds as without an AAD. If they were to high without an AAD, they are the same with an AAD and therefore still too high.

Derek

[pilotdave 0]

I understand your point when it comes to a new jumper going on a low skill level hybrid or something. Makes perfect sense.

But you totally lose me when you start talking about experienced jumpers like freefly coaches. I don't quite understand why you care what any experienced jumper's cypres philosophy is (ie when that jumper's skill is out of the equation). Just like you said, risk threshold is a personal decision. How much an experienced jumper relies on their cypres is that person's decision. I don't care how poorly you pack your main or how often you pack your reserve (you meaning anyone). That's your threshold for reliance on your reserve.

Jumping with a cypres usually will increase your chance of survival on any particular jump. Doesn't prevent freefall collisions. Just prevents smacking the ground with nothing out. Maybe that's enough added benefit for some jumpers. Maybe if the cypres had never been invented, sunshine would do freefly coaching without one. But as long as it's available, why in the world would she ever do it without one? IT DOES increase her chances of surviving any jump. Why do you care? The risk we take on any given jump is INDEPENDENT of our philosophy on AADs. If you have one, you have one, if not, you don't. THAT changes risk level. Beliefs don't.

Dave

[nicknitro71 0]

Derek,

I guess we are talking about two different things. You jump from behavior to risk acceptance. I am just talking about risk acceptance threshold.

Same jump: H&P out of 2000'

I would jump with my BASE rig with only one canopy if allowed.

I would not jump out with my sport main as sole parachute.

The jump is the same, I get out and pull, my behavior is no different but if I want to jump my sport main canopy I would add a reserve. The jump is the same but now because I have a reserve I can trust I leap out pulling my sport main. I just added an extra piece of gear and suddenly an un-doable jump becomes doable

Same goes for the 40 way with different level jumpers. I know there is a chance I can get knock unconscious by other skydivers and I cannot accept that. With an AAD I take my chance of getting knock unconscious. Again I just added an extra piece of gear and suddenly the un-doable jump becomes doable. You just happened to make a distinction between the AAD and the reserve, I don't. It's not that if I add the AAD I start acting unsafe. I would try to be as safe as possible regardless who I am jumping with the difference is trust. I trust my BASE canopy to save my life, I trust my reserve to save my life, I don't trust my sport main to save my life, I trust 39 very experienced RW jumpers not to knock me unconscious, I don't trust 39 not so experienced jumpers not to knock me unconscious hence I add a piece of gear to elevate my risk acceptance threshold because I trust my AAD to save my life if I get knock unconscious.

My behavior and the jump regardless the gear does not change. My risk acceptance level does change with my gear choice.

Do you see my point?

Memento Audere Semper

903

[Praetorian 1]

On EVERY jump there are many things that can go wrong, some are adjustable by skill some are not.

For those that vary with skill level (and judgement is involved here) EACH jumper sets his or her own limits

For those that DO NOT vary with skill and are a part of each jump. we have safety gear like reserves, helmets and aads (yes these can also help REDUCE the concequences of a mis hap from the previous catagory)

I think the point is, SET YOUR LIMIT in the first catagory without respect to your safety gear. DO NOT increase that limit because you have safety gear.

In MY case I add a Cypres to MY gear for the sole purpose of reducing the risk from the second catagory.

I depend on my skill and my judgment of that skill(as well an the judgment of others whom I trust, who know my skill) to decide what jumps I go on. WITHOUT reguard to a helmet or an AAD

I'm not saying an AAD will NOT help if I screw up or if my judgment is wrong, its just NOT why I have one.

For an AAD to help on a jump I SHOULD NOT have been on I have to get hurt by that jump... I AM NOT WILLING TO INCREASE MY RISK of being injured on a jump just because I have an AAD NO ONE SHOULD BE

BECAUSE the non-variable risks EXIST ON EVERY JUMP I CHOOSE to REDUCE them on every jump by having an AAD

Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad
judgment.

[mnealtx 0]

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You criticised Sunshine for always using an AAD on coach freefly jumps, even though she is fully qualified. Clearly, skill level is not part of your equation.

No, he criticised her for NOT doing them when she did not have an AAD.

Her skill was never questioned...Her allowing her danger level to be increased when she had one WAS.

If I thought I could not be safe doing AFF without an AAD, I would not do AFF at all. As it is, I think I can do AFF with an acceptable degree of saftey...I then ADD an AAD.

I don't do a skydive with an AAD that I would not do without. She just said she did, and thats kinda the point of Mine, Hooks, and Bills point.

Don't do more dangerous things that you would not do with an AAD with one.

I'm not following your logic.

How is it bad for her to refuse a jump without the extra safety gear? That would be like blasting a CRW dog for not jumping w/o a reserve, if they weren't required...

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Icon134 0]

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If you would not jump without it....You are relying on it.

I don't agree... there is evidence that would suggest that an AAD might not work. (granted, there were migitigating circumstances one of the more recient ones...) but this is an arguement of semantics...

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If you would not jump without it....You are relying on it.

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OK, I don't want to jump period without some kind of AAD in my rig... not because I think I'm incapable of being safe... or becasuse I'm doing things over my head... but because having an AAD is just one more way I can migitate the risks involved in the sport of skydiving.

I didn't say that I wouldn't jump w/o one... I said I wouldn't want to...

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If you don't use an AAD as a way to do dumber stuff...Then this whole thread does not apply to you at all.

Sure it does... this is a discussion about misunderstanding the meaning of what the experts are saying... by newbies like me...


I
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I don't rely on the fact that god exists but I hope he does so that when I die I can go to heaven.

[Ron 10]

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I'm not following your logic.

How is it bad for her to refuse a jump without the extra safety gear? That would be like blasting a CRW dog for not jumping w/o a reserve, if they weren't required...

Not quite.

Lets say I would not do "X" without an AAD.

But I say that if I had an AAD I would do "X".

That tells me that I should not be doing "X" in any case. If the risk on that jump is too great to do it without an AAD...Then the risk is to great to do it period.

Buy doing "X" only if I have an AAD I am relying on it....I am allowing my self to do dumber things just casue I have one.

That is not safety, that is device dependance.

If you want an AAD to make you safer, then have one, but jump like you don't have one. That measn if you would not do it without it...Don't do it at all.

If you allow the ownership of an AAD to make dumber jumps....then you are not being safe.

It owuld be like Hook said "Running a red light just cause you have airbags."

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[mnealtx 0]

Thanks for the explanation... I'm not sure I agree with it, but thank you nonetheless...

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Same goes for the 40 way with different level jumpers. I know there is a chance I can get knock unconscious by other skydivers and I cannot accept that

Then don't do the jump.

How does having an AAD decrease the chances of getting knocked unconscious that you find unacceptable?

How does an airbag reduce the odds of getting in a collision while running a red light?

It doesn't.

So then you are now making a jump with a risk level that you are not wiling to accept and are depending on the AAD to offset that risk. You are now device-dependant.

Jumper "A" feels that anything over a 10-way is too much risk.

Jumper "B" feels that anything over a 20-way is too much risk.

They both buy AAD's. Unfortunately both AAD's won't actually fire if needed but there is no way for either jumper to know this.

They both go do a 20-way. Which jumper is safer? Which jumper is exceeding their personnal risk threshold without even knowing it?

An AAD does not reduce the chances of a collision. If the chances of a collision is too high for a jumper, an AAD does not change those odds. Therefore using an AAD to offset those odss makes no sense.

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You just happened to make a distinction between the AAD and the reserve, I don't.

Sure, just like I make the distinction between a harness and an AAD, between a PFD and a kayak. Like it or not, a main, reserve, and harness and contaqiner are required for skydiving. An AAD, RSL, helmet, etc are not.

A kayak and a paddle is required to go kayaking, a PFD and helmet is not.

If the gear was optional, then a lot of people would jump without it, but thy don't. So jumping w/o a reserve is irrevelent, a what if that doesn't exist.

An AAD should not make the difference between acceptable risk and unacceptable risk.

Derek