flyangel2 2 #26 April 14, 2005 Quotemy riggger, who is also my S and TA, and former AFF Instructor, just tells me to lift weights and I should be fine Did he say that after he watched a landing?May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #27 April 15, 2005 Quotean experienced canopy pilot informed me to flare out to the sides to give me a better range of balance. granted i'm capable of flaring either way ~ but is the flare-out-to-the-sides a skill to work up to or is it something reccommended for certain canopies, experience, etc? My "hands in front" recommendation is for beginning jumpers, who jump larger, harder to flare canopies, and anyone having trouble flaring their canopy. Except for tandems, I certainly don't do that either. The "better range of balance" thing, is he talking about shifting weight side to side while swooping? For your experience level, that's certainly more appropriate. I also sometimes see jumpers having hard landings because they didn't flare enough, ore flare unevenly. That's often from flaring with their hands way out in front or too far to the sides. That's another time to talk about bringing the hands in and/or back to get a full flare. Best thing is having a good instructor or canopy pilot watch the landings of someone having problems. I get to jump with some reeealy good canopy pilots. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bdbrown 0 #28 April 15, 2005 QuoteQuotemy riggger, who is also my S and TA, and former AFF Instructor, just tells me to lift weights and I should be fine Did he say that after he watched a landing? Guarantee'd Spanky (ie rigger, ST&A) has seen her land....And he said umph Just kidding -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyangel2 2 #29 April 15, 2005 Okay, thanks. It's just the way Windcatcher said it, I wondered if the guy had seen her land. Since he has, it seems he knows what he's talking about.May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #30 April 15, 2005 QuoteI also sometimes see jumpers having hard landings because they didn't flare enough, ore flare unevenly. That's often from flaring with their hands way out in front or too far to the sides. That's another time to talk about bringing the hands in and/or back to get a full flare. Best thing is having a good instructor or canopy pilot watch the landings of someone having problems. I get to jump with some reeealy good canopy pilots. Since I've started undoing the chest strap more consistently, I've found a pretty big boost in the flare power, but I'm also more prone to turning off a tad at the end, probably from where I'm looking, but I'll try to think about where my hands are going too. Need more video, perhaps. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #31 April 15, 2005 Quotebut I'm also more prone to turning off a tad at the end, This could be because of a couple of things. One, you are not flaring both toggles evenly or two; you are bring them down evenly and not adjusting if the canopy starts to drop off the wind line. Remember to keep flying the canopy all the way down. You can do small corrections even during your flair. Hope this helps. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #32 April 15, 2005 QuoteThis could be because of a couple of things. One, you are not flaring both toggles evenly or two; you are bring them down evenly and not adjusting if the canopy starts to drop off the wind line. Remember to keep flying the canopy all the way down. You can do small corrections even during your flair. Absolutely. It's funny to watch and a hard habit to break, but when you feel yourself leaning to one side during a landing, your first instinct is to put a hand down on that side. Fine if you're just walking around, but not good while landing a canopy. Most people that fall to the side landing due to a "gust of wind" are actually just exacerbating a small lean by pushing down on the wrong toggle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #33 April 15, 2005 Quote[you are bring them down evenly and not adjusting if the canopy starts to drop off the wind line. Remember to keep flying the canopy all the way down. It's very likely this. I'm still looking to the spot I'm converging on rather than somewhat further ahead and the wind starts to have some effect right before touchdown. Not so much that it is hard to deal with, but enough to be noticed by observers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 4 #34 April 15, 2005 QuoteQuote[you are bring them down evenly and not adjusting if the canopy starts to drop off the wind line. Remember to keep flying the canopy all the way down. It's very likely this. I'm still looking to the spot I'm converging on rather than somewhat further ahead and the wind starts to have some effect right before touchdown. Not so much that it is hard to deal with, but enough to be noticed by observers. It is more common then you would think. At about 50+ feet start thinking about how you will handle the drop off if it happens. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AFFI 0 #35 April 15, 2005 Quote If it were me, I'd talk to my rigger and S&TA about it. They would be the best people to give you advice. They can watch your landings to see if your flare is really not enough and can show you better techniques to flaring, or if it's a mechanical problem that needs to be corrected (shortening brake lines) I've gone thru a similar situation where I thought the brake lines were too long so I talked to my rigger. He asked me a bunch of questions about how I was doing things and how the canopy looked under full flight, half brakes, full.. etc. He and I eventually decided to put an extra wrap thru the grommet to shorten the lines about an inch, but I was also flaring too low. Opionions here should be taken with a grain of salt. Holy Crap! Who would have thunk to ask someone qualified and physically there? Lummy has the best advice in this string...Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites firstime 0 #36 April 15, 2005 I was always told to flare with hands in the front until my 14th jump, I decided to flare with hands on the side. The landing was less than perfect (not due the flare) and my left hand hit the ground first. Yup you guessed it... I then started to think "why do they tell me to do it this way" I went back to the hands in the front. One brain fart got me. Live and learn (not) LEARN & LIVE PS: if you ever go to Eloy, don't try to emulate those guys, some of them don't even use their brakes DOH Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Scrumpot 1 #37 April 16, 2005 Quote ...they're usually out and back using the rear riser deflection from the brake line and guide ring to their advantage. Then before you know it, students are doing it as well, since they watch the swoopers come in hot and flare like that. I could be 100% wrong on that, its just a theory I have. I think your observation is correct here Dave, as I have often found myself talking with "lowbies" after I see them ATTEMPTING this with their landings, and asking them WHY. Your observation is oft times their response, right on! The one thing they fail to realize/recognize though is how far loosened we have opened our chest straps to, and how far FORWARD we may be leaning in our harnesses to "set this up", which of course they are missing/failing to emulate altogether! Now, it's certainly NOT that I am reccomending that they then also do that (loosen their chest straps at THAT level), but usually once it's pointed out, and they then realize that they are NOT applying the proper techniques, especially for, and in consideration of their current level and objectives, also in combination with the other factors they have not even yet begun to realize, it USUALLY also corrects their ways! {hijack mode now OFF} ...sorry 'bout that. I just saw your post there Dave, with this observation (which I have also had) & just thought I might comment on it. Hope I've made some sense after a few Friday evening 's -Grantcoitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 643 #38 April 16, 2005 QuoteQuotebecause they are holding their toggles out to the sides and run out of muscle. I've often thought that this sort of instance is due to a subconscious reaction to copy what experienced people due. I don't think I've ever seen a swooper flare in front of their body, they're usually out and back using the rear riser deflection from the brake line and guide ring to their advantage. Then before you know it, students are doing it as well, since they watch the swoopers come in hot and flare like that. I could be 100% wrong on that, its just a theory I have. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe, but I have also seen hundreds of tandem students lock their elbows and try to flare with their hands a mile out in front. It usually takes a couple of extra minutes in ground school to correct this impossible habit. The other reason for correcting this bad habit with tandem students is that if they try to flare with their hands a long way out in front, it puts me in an awkward arm position, unable to finish the flare. In contrast, when students do not want to assist with flaring, I pull my hands down my side seams for the most powerful flare. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites craichead 0 #39 April 16, 2005 QuoteThe one thing they fail to realize/recognize though is how far loosened we have opened our chest straps to, and how far FORWARD we may be leaning in our harnesses to "set this up", which of course they are missing/failing to emulate altogether! Now, it's certainly NOT that I am reccomending that they then also do that (loosen their chest straps at THAT level), but usually once it's pointed out, and they then realize that they are NOT applying the proper techniques, especially for, and in consideration of their current level and objectives, also in combination with the other factors they have not even yet begun to realize, it USUALLY also corrects their ways! {hijack mode now OFF} ...sorry 'bout that. Okay, I would like to continue the hijack since kelpdiver also mentioned loosening his chest strap. I'm kind of curious about what other experienced people think about "lowbies" loosening their chest straps and leaning forward to set up landing (NOT for swooping). Being a really low "lowbie" who can't jump right now, I've decided to be a lot more proactive in learning as much as I can while waiting to get back in the air. Last week, I took Brian Germain's canopy course, and he actually encouraged everyone (experience levels ranging from uncurrent me with 26 jumps to current jumpers with 60 to 800 jumps) to loosen up their chest straps after opening so that it's got some slack (not completely undoing it, of course). There were also drills of flying in deep brakes; flaring; harness, toggle and riser turns; and comparing how these maneuvers felt with/without the chest strap loosened. He also encouraged us to get familiar and comfortable with practicing these up high so that we're calm and in control when we're actually close to the ground. Anyway, here's my understanding of why pilots loosen their chest straps (please correct me if I'm wrong): 1) Loosening the chest strap (often in addition to pulling the slider down) allows the risers and lines to spread out, thereby flattening out the wing, which allows for better flight (more stable, better glide ratio, allows true harness input, etc.). However, it has been noted that these things aren't as noticeable on big, fat canopies with lower wingloadings. 2) On flare, the angle of attack is increased, causing the canopy + pilot to change in pitch. The canopy is flying slightly up and back (lift) while the pilot is still going forward. So with these two opposing forces, the pilot is now in an awkward position of legs in front, upper body in back. A loosened chest strap allows the pilot more room and ability to actively push/lean forward to change his body pitch so that he has better leverage and better control of his flight and landing gear (upper body should ideally be over the lower body). So, if loosening the chest strap allows for better flight, and consequently a better landing, should a basic technique be taught to "lowbies" so that they have a better understanding of how their canopy flies and how it affects their landings? If taught, when should they put it into practice? As a result, they would also understand why swoopers use these (albeit more advanced) techniques, too. Just curious. _Pm__ "Scared of love, love and aeroplanes...falling out, I said takes no brains." -- Andy Partridge (XTC) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnMitchell 16 #40 April 17, 2005 QuoteSo, if loosening the chest strap allows for better flight, and consequently a better landing, should a basic technique be taught to "lowbies" so that they have a better understanding of how their canopy flies and how it affects their landings? If taught, when should they put it into practice? As a result, they would also understand why swoopers use these (albeit more advanced) techniques, too. A wise man once told me "You can only teach a scared dog so many tricks." A student canopy, being much bigger and with longer lines, is not going to realize as much advantage by loosening the chest strap. I'd rather have them heading back to the DZ, watching for traffic, and planning their approach. I could save the advanced stuff for when they have advanced canopies, like maybe the first collapsible slider rig. With that said, Brian is a much better canopy instructor than I am. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites craichead 0 #41 April 17, 2005 QuoteA wise man once told me "You can only teach a scared dog so many tricks." A student canopy, being much bigger and with longer lines, is not going to realize as much advantage by loosening the chest strap. I'd rather have them heading back to the DZ, watching for traffic, and planning their approach. I could save the advanced stuff for when they have advanced canopies, like maybe the first collapsible slider rig. With that said, Brian is a much better canopy instructor than I am. I was actually thinking more about people who have already finished their student progression. I guess I understood "lowbies" to be "not a student" and "less than 200 jumps." _Pm__ "Scared of love, love and aeroplanes...falling out, I said takes no brains." -- Andy Partridge (XTC) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #42 April 20, 2005 Quote 1) Loosening the chest strap (often in addition to pulling the slider down) allows the risers and lines to spread out, thereby flattening out the wing, which allows for better flight (more stable, better glide ratio, allows true harness input, etc.). However, it has been noted that these things aren't as noticeable on big, fat canopies with lower wingloadings. For me on a Tri 220, the difference "seems" pretty noticeable. Slower speed on final, much easier for me to bring to near zero speed for touchdown. But...I'm only 12 jumps in on it. Visually I can see the bowing, but I'm not ready to bring a camera along to capture the two profiles. I don't think I've been doing much of the leaning forward. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites craichead 0 #43 April 20, 2005 QuoteVisually I can see the bowing, but I'm not ready to bring a camera along to capture the two profiles. Have someone video your landings! One with your chest strap tight, and one with your chest strap loose. That'd be interesting to see and compare on a bigger canopy... QuoteI don't think I've been doing much of the leaning forward. AndyMan sent me this link to help illustrate what I was talking about in my post (legs in front, upper body in back): http://www.strongparachutes.com/Pages/zpo.html Kind of interesting once you start thinking about it! Towards the end of of my student progression, a friend (who's also a USPA coach) told me that I should really try to lean forward to make stand-up landings easier. I never really understood that piece of advice until now. _Pm__ "Scared of love, love and aeroplanes...falling out, I said takes no brains." -- Andy Partridge (XTC) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 2 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
kelpdiver 2 #33 April 15, 2005 Quote[you are bring them down evenly and not adjusting if the canopy starts to drop off the wind line. Remember to keep flying the canopy all the way down. It's very likely this. I'm still looking to the spot I'm converging on rather than somewhat further ahead and the wind starts to have some effect right before touchdown. Not so much that it is hard to deal with, but enough to be noticed by observers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #34 April 15, 2005 QuoteQuote[you are bring them down evenly and not adjusting if the canopy starts to drop off the wind line. Remember to keep flying the canopy all the way down. It's very likely this. I'm still looking to the spot I'm converging on rather than somewhat further ahead and the wind starts to have some effect right before touchdown. Not so much that it is hard to deal with, but enough to be noticed by observers. It is more common then you would think. At about 50+ feet start thinking about how you will handle the drop off if it happens. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #35 April 15, 2005 Quote If it were me, I'd talk to my rigger and S&TA about it. They would be the best people to give you advice. They can watch your landings to see if your flare is really not enough and can show you better techniques to flaring, or if it's a mechanical problem that needs to be corrected (shortening brake lines) I've gone thru a similar situation where I thought the brake lines were too long so I talked to my rigger. He asked me a bunch of questions about how I was doing things and how the canopy looked under full flight, half brakes, full.. etc. He and I eventually decided to put an extra wrap thru the grommet to shorten the lines about an inch, but I was also flaring too low. Opionions here should be taken with a grain of salt. Holy Crap! Who would have thunk to ask someone qualified and physically there? Lummy has the best advice in this string...Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
firstime 0 #36 April 15, 2005 I was always told to flare with hands in the front until my 14th jump, I decided to flare with hands on the side. The landing was less than perfect (not due the flare) and my left hand hit the ground first. Yup you guessed it... I then started to think "why do they tell me to do it this way" I went back to the hands in the front. One brain fart got me. Live and learn (not) LEARN & LIVE PS: if you ever go to Eloy, don't try to emulate those guys, some of them don't even use their brakes DOH Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scrumpot 1 #37 April 16, 2005 Quote ...they're usually out and back using the rear riser deflection from the brake line and guide ring to their advantage. Then before you know it, students are doing it as well, since they watch the swoopers come in hot and flare like that. I could be 100% wrong on that, its just a theory I have. I think your observation is correct here Dave, as I have often found myself talking with "lowbies" after I see them ATTEMPTING this with their landings, and asking them WHY. Your observation is oft times their response, right on! The one thing they fail to realize/recognize though is how far loosened we have opened our chest straps to, and how far FORWARD we may be leaning in our harnesses to "set this up", which of course they are missing/failing to emulate altogether! Now, it's certainly NOT that I am reccomending that they then also do that (loosen their chest straps at THAT level), but usually once it's pointed out, and they then realize that they are NOT applying the proper techniques, especially for, and in consideration of their current level and objectives, also in combination with the other factors they have not even yet begun to realize, it USUALLY also corrects their ways! {hijack mode now OFF} ...sorry 'bout that. I just saw your post there Dave, with this observation (which I have also had) & just thought I might comment on it. Hope I've made some sense after a few Friday evening 's -Grantcoitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #38 April 16, 2005 QuoteQuotebecause they are holding their toggles out to the sides and run out of muscle. I've often thought that this sort of instance is due to a subconscious reaction to copy what experienced people due. I don't think I've ever seen a swooper flare in front of their body, they're usually out and back using the rear riser deflection from the brake line and guide ring to their advantage. Then before you know it, students are doing it as well, since they watch the swoopers come in hot and flare like that. I could be 100% wrong on that, its just a theory I have. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe, but I have also seen hundreds of tandem students lock their elbows and try to flare with their hands a mile out in front. It usually takes a couple of extra minutes in ground school to correct this impossible habit. The other reason for correcting this bad habit with tandem students is that if they try to flare with their hands a long way out in front, it puts me in an awkward arm position, unable to finish the flare. In contrast, when students do not want to assist with flaring, I pull my hands down my side seams for the most powerful flare. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
craichead 0 #39 April 16, 2005 QuoteThe one thing they fail to realize/recognize though is how far loosened we have opened our chest straps to, and how far FORWARD we may be leaning in our harnesses to "set this up", which of course they are missing/failing to emulate altogether! Now, it's certainly NOT that I am reccomending that they then also do that (loosen their chest straps at THAT level), but usually once it's pointed out, and they then realize that they are NOT applying the proper techniques, especially for, and in consideration of their current level and objectives, also in combination with the other factors they have not even yet begun to realize, it USUALLY also corrects their ways! {hijack mode now OFF} ...sorry 'bout that. Okay, I would like to continue the hijack since kelpdiver also mentioned loosening his chest strap. I'm kind of curious about what other experienced people think about "lowbies" loosening their chest straps and leaning forward to set up landing (NOT for swooping). Being a really low "lowbie" who can't jump right now, I've decided to be a lot more proactive in learning as much as I can while waiting to get back in the air. Last week, I took Brian Germain's canopy course, and he actually encouraged everyone (experience levels ranging from uncurrent me with 26 jumps to current jumpers with 60 to 800 jumps) to loosen up their chest straps after opening so that it's got some slack (not completely undoing it, of course). There were also drills of flying in deep brakes; flaring; harness, toggle and riser turns; and comparing how these maneuvers felt with/without the chest strap loosened. He also encouraged us to get familiar and comfortable with practicing these up high so that we're calm and in control when we're actually close to the ground. Anyway, here's my understanding of why pilots loosen their chest straps (please correct me if I'm wrong): 1) Loosening the chest strap (often in addition to pulling the slider down) allows the risers and lines to spread out, thereby flattening out the wing, which allows for better flight (more stable, better glide ratio, allows true harness input, etc.). However, it has been noted that these things aren't as noticeable on big, fat canopies with lower wingloadings. 2) On flare, the angle of attack is increased, causing the canopy + pilot to change in pitch. The canopy is flying slightly up and back (lift) while the pilot is still going forward. So with these two opposing forces, the pilot is now in an awkward position of legs in front, upper body in back. A loosened chest strap allows the pilot more room and ability to actively push/lean forward to change his body pitch so that he has better leverage and better control of his flight and landing gear (upper body should ideally be over the lower body). So, if loosening the chest strap allows for better flight, and consequently a better landing, should a basic technique be taught to "lowbies" so that they have a better understanding of how their canopy flies and how it affects their landings? If taught, when should they put it into practice? As a result, they would also understand why swoopers use these (albeit more advanced) techniques, too. Just curious. _Pm__ "Scared of love, love and aeroplanes...falling out, I said takes no brains." -- Andy Partridge (XTC) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #40 April 17, 2005 QuoteSo, if loosening the chest strap allows for better flight, and consequently a better landing, should a basic technique be taught to "lowbies" so that they have a better understanding of how their canopy flies and how it affects their landings? If taught, when should they put it into practice? As a result, they would also understand why swoopers use these (albeit more advanced) techniques, too. A wise man once told me "You can only teach a scared dog so many tricks." A student canopy, being much bigger and with longer lines, is not going to realize as much advantage by loosening the chest strap. I'd rather have them heading back to the DZ, watching for traffic, and planning their approach. I could save the advanced stuff for when they have advanced canopies, like maybe the first collapsible slider rig. With that said, Brian is a much better canopy instructor than I am. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
craichead 0 #41 April 17, 2005 QuoteA wise man once told me "You can only teach a scared dog so many tricks." A student canopy, being much bigger and with longer lines, is not going to realize as much advantage by loosening the chest strap. I'd rather have them heading back to the DZ, watching for traffic, and planning their approach. I could save the advanced stuff for when they have advanced canopies, like maybe the first collapsible slider rig. With that said, Brian is a much better canopy instructor than I am. I was actually thinking more about people who have already finished their student progression. I guess I understood "lowbies" to be "not a student" and "less than 200 jumps." _Pm__ "Scared of love, love and aeroplanes...falling out, I said takes no brains." -- Andy Partridge (XTC) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #42 April 20, 2005 Quote 1) Loosening the chest strap (often in addition to pulling the slider down) allows the risers and lines to spread out, thereby flattening out the wing, which allows for better flight (more stable, better glide ratio, allows true harness input, etc.). However, it has been noted that these things aren't as noticeable on big, fat canopies with lower wingloadings. For me on a Tri 220, the difference "seems" pretty noticeable. Slower speed on final, much easier for me to bring to near zero speed for touchdown. But...I'm only 12 jumps in on it. Visually I can see the bowing, but I'm not ready to bring a camera along to capture the two profiles. I don't think I've been doing much of the leaning forward. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
craichead 0 #43 April 20, 2005 QuoteVisually I can see the bowing, but I'm not ready to bring a camera along to capture the two profiles. Have someone video your landings! One with your chest strap tight, and one with your chest strap loose. That'd be interesting to see and compare on a bigger canopy... QuoteI don't think I've been doing much of the leaning forward. AndyMan sent me this link to help illustrate what I was talking about in my post (legs in front, upper body in back): http://www.strongparachutes.com/Pages/zpo.html Kind of interesting once you start thinking about it! Towards the end of of my student progression, a friend (who's also a USPA coach) told me that I should really try to lean forward to make stand-up landings easier. I never really understood that piece of advice until now. _Pm__ "Scared of love, love and aeroplanes...falling out, I said takes no brains." -- Andy Partridge (XTC) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
