dropzonefool 0 #1 April 15, 2005 EXAMPLE: No instructor has shown up for work at the DZ, there are students waiting to jump. Can an S&TA allow a non rated individual to act as Instructor for the day? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
voodew1 0 #2 April 15, 2005 The answer is no, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 4 #3 April 15, 2005 QuoteThe answer is no, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. Jason is right on that one. I have absolutely seen it happen at a very small dropzone. Is it right? No. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #4 April 15, 2005 NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NOMykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
voodew1 0 #5 April 15, 2005 QuoteJason is right on that one. I have absolutely seen it happen at a very small dropzone. Is it right? No. Me and Chuck agreed on something ---- THAT HAS TO BE BEER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jonmyob 0 #6 April 16, 2005 Possibly. Depends on dz. Most of the world is non-white, non-christian, non-english speaking, and non-USPA. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skr 1 #7 April 16, 2005 >Can an S&TA allow a non rated individual to act as Instructor I believe that used to be true for people doing the post AFF to A license phase. I haven't looked at the SIM in a while. I'm pretty sure you can't do that for the AFF phase though. Skr Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #8 April 16, 2005 Quote Can an S&TA allow a non rated individual to act as Instructor for the day? Can he? Yes Should he? No Should a student jump with the non rated individual? No Should the students find another DZ that has rated Instuctors? YES, without a fuckin' dout! Be safe. Edwww.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
voodew1 0 #9 April 16, 2005 QuoteIn Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Can an S&TA allow a non rated individual to act as Instructor for the day? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Can he? Yes I may be wrong but an S&TA can allow a jumper to act as a coach but not an instructor -- there is a big difference The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #10 April 16, 2005 QuoteCan he? Yes No, an S & TA cannot allow some to act as an AFFI or TI if they are not rated. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slotperfect 7 #11 April 16, 2005 If the DZ is a USPA Group Member, it is ethically wrong. It is a broken agreement. If the S&TA is not reducing the risk for the student by assigning a properly rated Instructor who is the best qualified to do the job, then it is morally wrong. The S&TA is not taking seriously the responsibility he has for the student's safety. The legal repercussions in the event of a lawsuit after an injury or fatality could potentially be devastating to everyone connected with the skydive in question: the pseudo-Instructor, the camera flyer, the S&TA, the DZO, the pilot, etc. etc. It's a long list. It would be pretty hard to defend oneself against gross negligence in that case.Arrive Safely John Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dropzonefool 0 #12 April 16, 2005 The fact that the DZO nor the rest of the jumpers or Instructors have noticed this point. They say its "ok" cause he is under the care of the S&TA, and his proficiency card is almost filled out. They miss the fact that there is an Instructional rating course that goes along with that card. HE [this non rated I] is now suddenly transitioning students to BOC, deciding to lower wingloadings, and deciding when students are ready to take longer delays (S/L program). Training them for there next jump, and I'll wind up as jumpmaster sometimes. I fell uneasy about it cause I do not know what, or how effective the students training was.The dz is non group member. I am afraid someone might get hurt/killed[which is always possably regardless if your an I or not]. So I ask One more question to the group of very well informed Instructors. If I continue to jump there, [ I'm a S/L-I and a T-I] but do not work as staff, just fun jump, and a student is injured, is there a chance I could be held responsible for allowing the BSR and FAR violations to continue with out ever narking the DZ out? Who do I nark to the USPA or the FAA. Note: I do not plan on narking. Thank you for your contributions and answers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bodypilot1 0 #13 April 16, 2005 QuoteI may be wrong but an S&TA can allow a jumper to act as a coach but not an instructor -- there is a big difference Your correct, but I have seen S&TA's "think" they can do anything they wish, thats why I said NO he shouldn't do that and if it were a DZ I was learning at, I would find another DZ to train at. Ethically its wrong. Be safe. Edwww.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bodypilot1 0 #14 April 16, 2005 QuoteQuoteCan he? Yes No, an S & TA cannot allow some to act as an AFFI or TI if they are not rated. Derek You didn't read my next line. "Should he? No Many non USPA DZ's have S&TA's that allow non rated Instructors jumping with students. Personally I don't agree with it, but it happens. IMHO being evaluated by an examiner, for skills in the air and on the student training, should be done before any skydiver is able to jump with any student. If they are allowed to do a tandem and unrated they are violating the FAA rules, not just USPA. Now if it's a USPA DZ, and they are letting non rated skydivers jump with students, they are in violation of the USPA BSR's. Be safe. Edwww.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 643 #15 April 16, 2005 Unfortunately, American, shot-gun style lawsuits leave anyone vaguely connected with a DZ legally vulnerable. To protect yourself, start by refusing to sign any junior jumper's logbook and making damn sure that your name never appears on any paperwork vaguely related to any student. Secondly, USPA has a chain of command for complaints. Start by telling the offender to his face about your concerns. The second step involves telling the offending DZO - to his face. The third step involves telling the S&TA. The fourth step involves calling your USPA conference director, etc. Remember that USPA is a voluntary organization with little legal clout beyond pulling ratings or canceling Group Membership. If the problem persists after a few months of your complaining, vote with your dollars. Tell the offending DZO why you are taking your money to his competitor. It is not as if you have to drive very far in Florida to find another DZ! Hee! Hee! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 643 #16 April 16, 2005 In Canada, the only slack is for PFF graduates. Once they have convinced PFF Instructors that they will save their own lives, then students are allowed to jump with Coaches. Students MUST jump with rated instructors until they have completed the list of skills and the oral exam for their Solo Certificate (minimum 10 jumps). The key to earning a Solo Certificate is demonstrating basic survival skills (pulling, etc.) Between their Solo Certificate and A Certificate, Canadian students jump with CSPA Coaches to refine the list of solo skills needed for their A Certificate. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Hooknswoop 19 #17 April 16, 2005 QuoteYou didn't read my next line. "Should he? No I did read it and by USPA's standards he can't. This was before I realized it isn't a USPA DZ. dropzonefool: First point: Even if it was a USPA DZ, the USPA a) can;t really do anything about it except maybe revoke the S & TA's appointment which doesn;t really mean anything, and b) USPA probably won't do anything anyway for fear of losing membership dues. Second point: DZ's are supposed to comply witht the FAR's by law. BSR's have no legality to them and are purely voluntary and most DZ's violate them with impunity. Since the DZ is no a GM DZ, they haven't 'pledged' to follow the BSR's. Since it isn't an FAA requirement for a AFFI, IADI, or S/LI to be rated, the FAA doesn't care a bit, they aren't violating the FAR's. Third point: You have to make a choice, a big choice. You can either look the other way, if your integrity can handle that, or you will probably be banned from the DZ, and maybe others, if you try to say/do anything about non instructors training students. Understand 2 things, you'll find B.S. like this at almost every DZ, and no one really cares enough to actually do something to change things. If you try, you'll be outcast and nothing will change anyway. I speak from experience. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 4 #18 April 16, 2005 QuoteTraining them for there next jump, and I'll wind up as jumpmaster sometimes. As a rated S/L instructor, you are already a party to policy by acting as jumpmaster for a student you knew was not trained for the jump by a rated instructor. Ethically you have only one way to go. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DShiznit 0 #19 April 16, 2005 QuoteThe answer is no, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. Yup. Quote Jason is right on that one. Voodew, this is where you say, "Say it again, Chuck. I didn't quite hear you the first time..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dropzonefool 0 #20 April 17, 2005 To protect yourself, start by refusing to sign any junior jumper's logbook and making damn sure that your name never appears on any paperwork vaguely related to any student<<< Thank you, good advice. Will do. IF I jumpmaster for a student trained by any one else but myself I'll send them to their "instructor" for signing, when the students card gets to the USPA it will be bumped back for un official signatures. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dropzonefool 0 #21 April 17, 2005 Second point: DZ's are supposed to comply witht the FAR's by law. BSR's have no legality to them and are purely voluntary and most DZ's violate them with impunity. Since the DZ is no a GM DZ, they haven't 'pledged' to follow the BSR's. Since it isn't an FAA requirement for a AFFI, IADI, or S/LI to be rated, the FAA doesn't care a bit, they aren't violating the FAR's. <<<<<<<< I didn't consider that point, about the FAA not requiring rated Instructors. Third point: You have to make a choice, a big choice. You can either look the other way, if your integrity can handle that, or you will probably be banned from the DZ, and maybe others, if you try to say/do anything about non instructors training students. Understand 2 things, you'll find B.S. like this at almost every DZ, and no one really cares enough to actually do something to change things. If you try, you'll be outcast and nothing will change anyway. I speak from experience<<<<<<<<< Being banned, or outcast is one big consern I have, sometimes I consider looking the other way, but I get torn between the students safty, and the fact that I know the DZO is only interested in $. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dropzonefool 0 #22 April 17, 2005 Ethically you have only one way to go. <<<<< I know either give up the rating or find a DZ that complies with the BSR's and FAR's. This was my home DZ and I never realized the low level of student safty until I learned this stuf for my rating. Sometime I get so pissed off I start considering opening my own DZ. I mean if I can be held as an Instructor responsibal, then why not be responsibal for the whole thing, but then I cool off and realize how obserd that sounds. Me a DZO. Thanks everyone for your input, I have choices to make. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Hooknswoop 19 #23 April 17, 2005 QuoteI know either give up the rating or find a DZ that complies with the BSR's and FAR's. If you find one, let me know Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 4 #24 April 17, 2005 QuoteSometime I get so pissed off I start considering opening my own DZ. I mean if I can be held as an Instructor responsibal, then why not be responsibal for the whole thing, but then I cool off and realize how obserd that sounds. Me a DZO It would be one way of assuring that the student program was operating in a way that you agree with. All it takes is money and lots of time from what I hear. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. 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bodypilot1 0 #13 April 16, 2005 QuoteI may be wrong but an S&TA can allow a jumper to act as a coach but not an instructor -- there is a big difference Your correct, but I have seen S&TA's "think" they can do anything they wish, thats why I said NO he shouldn't do that and if it were a DZ I was learning at, I would find another DZ to train at. Ethically its wrong. Be safe. Edwww.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #14 April 16, 2005 QuoteQuoteCan he? Yes No, an S & TA cannot allow some to act as an AFFI or TI if they are not rated. Derek You didn't read my next line. "Should he? No Many non USPA DZ's have S&TA's that allow non rated Instructors jumping with students. Personally I don't agree with it, but it happens. IMHO being evaluated by an examiner, for skills in the air and on the student training, should be done before any skydiver is able to jump with any student. If they are allowed to do a tandem and unrated they are violating the FAA rules, not just USPA. Now if it's a USPA DZ, and they are letting non rated skydivers jump with students, they are in violation of the USPA BSR's. Be safe. Edwww.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #15 April 16, 2005 Unfortunately, American, shot-gun style lawsuits leave anyone vaguely connected with a DZ legally vulnerable. To protect yourself, start by refusing to sign any junior jumper's logbook and making damn sure that your name never appears on any paperwork vaguely related to any student. Secondly, USPA has a chain of command for complaints. Start by telling the offender to his face about your concerns. The second step involves telling the offending DZO - to his face. The third step involves telling the S&TA. The fourth step involves calling your USPA conference director, etc. Remember that USPA is a voluntary organization with little legal clout beyond pulling ratings or canceling Group Membership. If the problem persists after a few months of your complaining, vote with your dollars. Tell the offending DZO why you are taking your money to his competitor. It is not as if you have to drive very far in Florida to find another DZ! Hee! Hee! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #16 April 16, 2005 In Canada, the only slack is for PFF graduates. Once they have convinced PFF Instructors that they will save their own lives, then students are allowed to jump with Coaches. Students MUST jump with rated instructors until they have completed the list of skills and the oral exam for their Solo Certificate (minimum 10 jumps). The key to earning a Solo Certificate is demonstrating basic survival skills (pulling, etc.) Between their Solo Certificate and A Certificate, Canadian students jump with CSPA Coaches to refine the list of solo skills needed for their A Certificate. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #17 April 16, 2005 QuoteYou didn't read my next line. "Should he? No I did read it and by USPA's standards he can't. This was before I realized it isn't a USPA DZ. dropzonefool: First point: Even if it was a USPA DZ, the USPA a) can;t really do anything about it except maybe revoke the S & TA's appointment which doesn;t really mean anything, and b) USPA probably won't do anything anyway for fear of losing membership dues. Second point: DZ's are supposed to comply witht the FAR's by law. BSR's have no legality to them and are purely voluntary and most DZ's violate them with impunity. Since the DZ is no a GM DZ, they haven't 'pledged' to follow the BSR's. Since it isn't an FAA requirement for a AFFI, IADI, or S/LI to be rated, the FAA doesn't care a bit, they aren't violating the FAR's. Third point: You have to make a choice, a big choice. You can either look the other way, if your integrity can handle that, or you will probably be banned from the DZ, and maybe others, if you try to say/do anything about non instructors training students. Understand 2 things, you'll find B.S. like this at almost every DZ, and no one really cares enough to actually do something to change things. If you try, you'll be outcast and nothing will change anyway. I speak from experience. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #18 April 16, 2005 QuoteTraining them for there next jump, and I'll wind up as jumpmaster sometimes. As a rated S/L instructor, you are already a party to policy by acting as jumpmaster for a student you knew was not trained for the jump by a rated instructor. Ethically you have only one way to go. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DShiznit 0 #19 April 16, 2005 QuoteThe answer is no, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. Yup. Quote Jason is right on that one. Voodew, this is where you say, "Say it again, Chuck. I didn't quite hear you the first time..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dropzonefool 0 #20 April 17, 2005 To protect yourself, start by refusing to sign any junior jumper's logbook and making damn sure that your name never appears on any paperwork vaguely related to any student<<< Thank you, good advice. Will do. IF I jumpmaster for a student trained by any one else but myself I'll send them to their "instructor" for signing, when the students card gets to the USPA it will be bumped back for un official signatures. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dropzonefool 0 #21 April 17, 2005 Second point: DZ's are supposed to comply witht the FAR's by law. BSR's have no legality to them and are purely voluntary and most DZ's violate them with impunity. Since the DZ is no a GM DZ, they haven't 'pledged' to follow the BSR's. Since it isn't an FAA requirement for a AFFI, IADI, or S/LI to be rated, the FAA doesn't care a bit, they aren't violating the FAR's. <<<<<<<< I didn't consider that point, about the FAA not requiring rated Instructors. Third point: You have to make a choice, a big choice. You can either look the other way, if your integrity can handle that, or you will probably be banned from the DZ, and maybe others, if you try to say/do anything about non instructors training students. Understand 2 things, you'll find B.S. like this at almost every DZ, and no one really cares enough to actually do something to change things. If you try, you'll be outcast and nothing will change anyway. I speak from experience<<<<<<<<< Being banned, or outcast is one big consern I have, sometimes I consider looking the other way, but I get torn between the students safty, and the fact that I know the DZO is only interested in $. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dropzonefool 0 #22 April 17, 2005 Ethically you have only one way to go. <<<<< I know either give up the rating or find a DZ that complies with the BSR's and FAR's. This was my home DZ and I never realized the low level of student safty until I learned this stuf for my rating. Sometime I get so pissed off I start considering opening my own DZ. I mean if I can be held as an Instructor responsibal, then why not be responsibal for the whole thing, but then I cool off and realize how obserd that sounds. Me a DZO. Thanks everyone for your input, I have choices to make. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #23 April 17, 2005 QuoteI know either give up the rating or find a DZ that complies with the BSR's and FAR's. If you find one, let me know Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #24 April 17, 2005 QuoteSometime I get so pissed off I start considering opening my own DZ. I mean if I can be held as an Instructor responsibal, then why not be responsibal for the whole thing, but then I cool off and realize how obserd that sounds. Me a DZO It would be one way of assuring that the student program was operating in a way that you agree with. All it takes is money and lots of time from what I hear. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
