Would you lower your min cutaway altitude if you had a Skyhook?

[Lostinspace 0]

>I won't RELY on any EXTRA OPTIONAL man made devices
> I don't base jump so a RESERVE parachute is NOT OPTIONAL.

It is not optional where you jump because someone is enforcing a regulation. A regulation that exists because it would be “stupid” to rely on just one man made device.

You can break the law, poeple do it every day. If it wasn't required, would you jump with out a reserve?

A reserve is back up (an optional man made devices ), to reduce the risk of skydiving.

> I won't RELY on any EXTRA OPTIONAL man made devices, it doesn't mean I won't install them on my gear, just means I plan on pulling all my own handles, unlike those how RELY on the extra's.

Why won’t you rely on how you packed and inspected your gear?

[billvon 2,990]

>If you approached every jumper on the world record jump and said "hey
> we took your AAD out while you were dirt diving becuase Hooknswoop says
>you shouldnt be on the jump with it", do you HONESTLY think they would
> have built a 357-way?

I know a lot of the people on that dive. And if we had taken off on that last fateful day of the attempt, discovered that we wouldn't be able to land at the remote DZ first, and BJ had gotten on the PA and said "EVERYONE DISARM YOUR AAD'S! WE'RE NOT LANDING FIRST AND THE DZ IS LOWER!" everyone I know on the attempt would have done it and then jumped. There would be a lot of bitching, wailing and gnashing of teeth, but everyone would have jumped. Heck, there were people with broken ribs who were trying to jump. (They got talked out of it.)

Might someone have died? It's always a possibility, with or without an AAD, and using an AAD surely reduces that possibility. But I have yet to go on a jump that I would have refused to do if someone told me my cypres had turned itself off.

>I am just SMART enough to say I WONT jump a 100 way without one.

So here's a question. You are on the 400 way. You're down to the last jump of the attempt. When you get a pin check before exit someone notices your AAD is off. Are you going to back out?

[SCR10480 0]

No...Hard deck is hard deck. Unless a Skyhook can gain me some altitude, I'll still chop on time.

[LawnDart21 0]

Considering your reply presumed to speak for all 357 people, that they would in fact jump with thier AADs off, I applaud you for knowing so many people. (I think I know 15 people total in my life that I would actually feel comfortable speaking on thier behalf, you know 357..............)

And then, and I quote:
"So here's a question. You are on the 400 way. You're down to the last jump of the attempt. When you get a pin check before exit someone notices your AAD is off. Are you going to back out?"

That is simply not a possibility Bill. With the container that I jump, the AAD window in up against my back. I turn it on at the beginning of the day, and check the window each time I put the rig on while on the ground. My "pin check" request at altitude would consist solely of a main pin inspection, perhaps they also peak at the reserve pin under the flap on thier own. (Go ahead pick that apart too, I invite you). There would be no way anyone would be able to notice my AAD was off.

But I'll answer your 1 in a million question anyways. If on the way to altitude, I decided to take my rig off and stretch out before the attempt........and someone else happened to notice that my AAD was off, I would put my rig back on and jump the 400 way. I wouldnt even bitch about it............

Happy now?

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

[pilotdave 0]

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So here's a question. You are on the 400 way. You're down to the last jump of the attempt. When you get a pin check before exit someone notices your AAD is off. Are you going to back out?

The concept here is "acceptable risk." Just because someone accepts higher risk to avoid screwing up 399 other people doesn't change anything. There are plenty of people that would "NEVER" jump without an AAD that would go right ahead and do it with all that peer pressure. I bet you could find a lot of people that would sacrifice safety in many other ways in order to accomplish a goal like that.

Dave

[AndyMan 7]

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So here's a question. You are on the 400 way. You're down to the last jump of the attempt. When you get a pin check before exit someone notices your AAD is off. Are you going to back out?

People constantly sacrifice safety for the sake of peer pressure. That is not a new thing, nor is it a good thing.

To me, peer pressure represents a far bigger risk than people who plan on using additional safety gear whenever possible.

It's far wiser to plan on never succumbing to peer preasure than to plan on giving into it.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[jlmiracle 7]

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>I won't RELY on any EXTRA OPTIONAL man made devices
> I don't base jump so a RESERVE parachute is NOT OPTIONAL.

It is not optional where you jump because someone is enforcing a regulation. A regulation that exists because it would be “stupid” to rely on just one man made device.

I wouldn't put a pilot at risk by skydiving out of an airplane with a BASE rig on. It would be a violation and he/she would lose their license. So its not optional.

I can, however jump from an airplane with a 2 parachutes, no RSL, skyhook, or aad and it would be legal as long as my reserve was in date.

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Why won’t you rely on how you packed and inspected your gear?

This question has me confused because it doesn't make any sense and I never said I wouldn't not rely on how I packed and inspected my gear.

J

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[billvon 2,990]

>I would put my rig back on and jump the 400 way. I wouldnt even
> bitch about it............

Good for you! Thus, you _are_ willing to jump without an AAD. That was the original point.

[AndyMan 7]

>>I would put my rig back on and jump the 400 way. I wouldnt even
>> bitch about it............

> Good for you! Thus, you _are_ willing to jump without an AAD. That was the original point.

Just so I understand, succumbing to peer pressure and lowering ones safety threashold is a good thing???

Edit: Not intented as a jab at LawnDart. Peer Pressure affects everyone, and would play a role in anyones decision given the scenario described.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[billvon 2,990]

>Just so I understand, succumbing to peer preasure and lowering ones
>safety threashold is a good thing???

Nope! It is a bad thing if someone relies so much on their AAD that they will not jump without it. It is good if they do not have that sort of reliance.

[pilotdave 0]

Do you consider it to be an intelligent choice to attempt a 400-way without an AAD?

The risk of a freefall collision is significantly higher on a 400-way than on a solo. It'll probably start from a significantly higher than normal altitude too, where oxygen system malfunctions have been problems on big ways before. Higher risk is a given. Using an AAD doesn't lower one's chance of a freefall collision or passing out from hypoxia. It's a backup in case those things happen.

In theory, an AAD increases one's chance of surviving such a jump. Why in the world do you have a problem with somebody that would only choose to do such a jump with that added protection (regardless of whether or not he could be talked into it at the last minute)?

AADs can fail, blah blah blah. THEY CAN WORK TOO!

Dave

[billvon 2,990]

> Do you consider it to be an intelligent choice to attempt a 400-way
>without an AAD?

Personally I would prefer one. If someone wants to go without, fine with me. Doesn't mean he's an idiot.

>The risk of a freefall collision is significantly higher on a 400-way than on
>a solo.

From my experience, the risk of collision on World Team events is less than the risk of collision on low-timer hybrids. But I will certainly grant you that the risk of collision on a WT 400 way is greater than the risk of collision if ten WT members do a 10-way.

>In theory, an AAD increases one's chance of surviving such a jump. Why
>in the world do you have a problem with somebody that would only
>choose to do such a jump with that added protection?

"Have a problem?" People can use whatever safety gear they choose. People who will not do ANY sort of skydive without an AAD _may_ be relying on it to do more than it can. If someone thinks that a dive is too dangerous to do without an AAD, it is likely that it's too dangerous to do with one as well. But if they want to use one - I have no problem with it. I usually use one as well.

>AADs can fail, blah blah blah. THEY CAN WORK TOO!

?? Uh, yeah. Which is why we use them.

[pilotdave 0]

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People who will not do ANY sort of skydive without an AAD _may_ be relying on it to do more than it can. If someone thinks that a dive is too dangerous to do without an AAD, it is likely that it's too dangerous to do with one as well.

Now you have me confused (). People that refuse to ever skydive without an AAD are too reliant on them. AND people that will do a certain jump ONLY if they have an AAD are also too reliant?

"too dangerous" is a personal choice. Who are you to say a skydive is "too dangerous" for somebody else? Sure, you might know somebody doesn't have the skill to handle a certain jump safely...that's fine. But lets talk about the 400 world class skydivers on this 400 way. They've all got the skill. They are allowed to choose where their risk threshold lies. It may lie right smack between TOO RISKY without an AAD and ACCEPTABLY RISKY with an AAD. The AAD only lowers risk by some certain amount. It's not going to magically prevent any accidents. But it does lower risk.

Why be proud of a skydiver that will take that extra risk? I mean, I don't care one way or the other if someone on a 400 way will jump without an AAD. I wouldn't call him an idiot for doing it. But I wouldn't congratulate him for being so macho either [yeah, I know I'll get yelled at for that line! ]. It's his choice.

Dave

[wmw999 2,444]

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People that refuse to ever skydive without an AAD are too reliant on them. AND people that will do a certain jump ONLY if they have an AAD are also too reliant?

I can see Bill's point. I can also see what you're saying. But I think it comes down to how you mitigate risk.

If you use an AAD to mitigate the risk of skydiving, it should be a fully-understood risk, and it should be your final mitigation, not an early one.

In other words --
Skydiving is an activity whose risks can be understood and managed to the degree that most people can jump without an AAD.
If you are unwilling to jump without an AAD, it would be very unwise for that unwillingness to be due to not really accepting the risk. Because with an AAD it's still there. Really. Only now it's a risk in a more complex system.

BTW -- while I am unlikely ever to be on a 400-way (very, supremely, unlikely), I have done 100+ ways. I like having an AAD, but I'd be just as likely to do them if I didn't have one. If you're on a load like that, yes, you really ought to be that good at awareness and tracking. And I'm not very macho at all
Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[kelpdiver 2]

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>I would put my rig back on and jump the 400 way. I wouldnt even
> bitch about it............

Good for you! Thus, you _are_ willing to jump without an AAD. That was the original point.

But unless you had a good idea why the Cypres is off (ie, your day started 14 hours ago), should you be wondering what else may be wrong with the rig, what else might have been glossed over on the check before donning the rig? Or can you be confident that you can inspect the non electronic components?

[billvon 2,990]

>People that refuse to ever skydive without an AAD are too reliant on them.

People who refuse to ever skydive without an AAD MAY be too reliant on them.

>AND people that will do a certain jump ONLY if they have an AAD are also too reliant?

People who refuse to do a certain jump without a cypres that they would do _with_ a cypres may be safer overall if they simply choose to not jump on those jumps. A device that gives you the 'confidence' you need to get on dangerous jumps is not doing you any good.

>"too dangerous" is a personal choice. Who are you to say a skydive is
>"too dangerous" for somebody else?

A skydiver. I often give advice. People often ignore it. No problems there.

>Why be proud of a skydiver that will take that extra risk? I mean, I don't
> care one way or the other if someone on a 400 way will jump without an
> AAD. I wouldn't call him an idiot for doing it. But I wouldn't congratulate
> him for being so macho either . . .

?? I must be missing something here. I don't think someone who does a 400 without a cypres is an idiot. I don't think someone who does a 400 without a cypres is macho. All it means is that he can jump without a cypres.

[pilotdave 0]

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People who refuse to do a certain jump without a cypres that they would do _with_ a cypres may be safer overall if they simply choose to not jump on those jumps.

MAY be safer?? You've gotta be kidding me. You'd be a whole lot safer if you'd quit jumping (assuming you don't go replace skydiving with something more dangerous). ANYONE would be safer sitting out ANY skydive. That goes without saying.

A person is not SAFER because he is WILLING to jump without a cypres. THERE ARE CASES where a skydiver uses a cypres as an innapropriate confidence builder. No argument there. But is choosing to use a cypres for CERTAIN, higher risk jumps a sign of reliance for a skydiver with the demonstrated skill to accomplish those jumps?

I know you're not going to agree with me, and I'm not going to agree with you...yet. Gimme 15 years.

Dave

[Ron 10]

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MAY be safer?? You've gotta be kidding me. You'd be a whole lot safer if you'd quit jumping (assuming you don't go replace skydiving with something more dangerous). ANYONE would be safer sitting out ANY skydive. That goes without saying.

Yes, MAY be safer. If you use the added protection of a CYPRES to allow you to do dumber skydives....Then it MAY be safer.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[pilotdave 0]

First, why the hell am I relpying to this thread AGAIN? Second, PLEASE tell me about a skydive where the jumper is SAFER by going on the skydive than not going on it. Bill's comment was that cypres-reliant jumpers MAY be safer by NOT skydiving. That's really freaking profound.

I'm sick right now and might not be able to jump this weekend, then I think I might be busy the next 2 weekends so I'm not in a very good mood right now... So maybe it's just me, but does it seem to anyone else that we're all arguing with a wall? It's like every comment you guys make has nothing to do with any argument I make.

I FREAKING GET IT that it's dangerous to go on a jump you're not ready for, cypres or not. THAT'S NOT THE SITUATION I'M TALKING ABOUT. I'm going to bed.

Dave

[Scrumpot 1]

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The risk of a freefall collision is significantly higher on a 400-way than on a solo.

The "risk" of needing to pull LOWER than normal (to clear congested traffic) also goes up on bigger-ways, and thus WITH a Cypres, the "risk" of having to deal with a 2-out scenario.

The CHOICE under informed and considered for the particular circumstances to jump either WITH a Cypres, or WITHOUT can be equally valid (and respected) for some. However, if you ever find yourself in a situation where you are about to go on a jump, and the ONLY final reasoning that "pushes you over that threshold" to allow you to do it is your Cypres... you ARE better off NOT going on that jump at all. If you would absolutely not do it without your Cypres, or say it just failed its turn-on self-test & you now fear going at all because of that (so that again, your Cyres is your ONLY REASON), you are DEPENDENT ...which sets you up for very bad things if you are not capable of getting over that, or reasoning through it.

You & Bill are talking "AT" each other and not listening/considering what the other is saying. Dave, semantics of being safer to (obviously) just not jump at all aside, maybe you can step back & see the point?

You're sick. I've had a few 's ...So I'm now with you, and I'm calling it a night. I've got some serious JUMPING to be doing in the morning (and ALL weekend it looks like now

Blues,
-Grant

coitus non circum - Moab Stone