Germain's article on the recession

[MikeJD 0]

I'm with DougH on this. I get weary with the implication that skydivers are a special breed, or that the non-skydiving population are somehow less evolved, or less capable, or less alive, than we are.

What we do is special, and we're privileged to be able to do it, but I suspect it's mainly circumstance that got most of here. I know a lot of very different personalities in the sport - including many whom I don't think of as natural risk-takers, or athletes, or even clear thinkers .

I think one of the things that keeps non-jumpers from testing the water is the myth, often perpetuated here, that you have to be super-courageous, or cool, or crazy, to take part. You don't. You just need a reasonable level of physical ability and mental ability, the capacity to learn, and spare time and money.

[kelpdiver 2]

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I think one of the things that keeps non-jumpers from testing the water is the myth, often perpetuated here, that you have to be super-courageous, or cool, or crazy, to take part. You don't. You just need a reasonable level of physical ability and mental ability, the capacity to learn, and spare time and money.

IMO, the physical and mental skills necessary are possessed by the vast majority. It's the will to do so, that is not.

And a pile of money, if you want to do more than a tandem.

[mr_music11 0]

I never said "larger DZ's"..and just in my thinking if I go to my local DZ where they run a PAC 750( and would assume this to be true for any aircraft used for jumping) and ask for a lift to 13k, if Im the only one, they will tell me no because there are not enough people to get the aircraft in the air ($$ to run the craft).. If I pull out enough money, Im sure that they would take me to altitude. Thankfully, with 6 people paying $24 each does the trick. Now, if you're supposing that demand would be so high @ every DZ, that the DZO's have to start turning down clients because of limited supply and starts charging MORE just because they CAN, because of that demand... well, that is a possiblity (also part of the supply and demand equation) and is then what I would call GREED. Thankfully, the DZO's that I have met are not of that nature and are truly trying to make the sport as economical as possible because they understand that the cheaper that they can make the sport, the more people that will be around the DZ making jumps.

If flying is piloting a plane.. then swimming is driving a boat. I know why birds sing.. I skydive.

[zipplewrath 1]

The discussion seems to be focused to some extent on merely the distribution. Most/many/vast majority is being compared to less than half/a few/some. I'm not sure how one sorts that out, but when you realize that roughly half of the golfers in the world can't break 100, it would suggest that "most" folks can't/don't master the basics (100 isn't all that great a score). Such a poor mastery of skydiving would kill you. Someone could probably present similar statistics on bowling. Considering the absolutely lousy driving I see go on everyday, I'm just not of the mind that "anyone" can do it and in fact I think just about any basic skill set will only be available to a minority of the population, whether it's music, math, or sports. It's not that we are "better" or smarter, more courageous, ot anything else. It's just another skill set that one has to have and like anything else, not everyone is going to have it.

[pinkfairy 0]

So who do you think should skydive?

I'm the first to admit that I'm only human, I don't have lightning fast reflexes, super human streinght or x-ray vision, I'm definitely not part of the COOL gang, and I didn't want to skydive before a friend of mine started and told me all about how much fun it was.

Should I quit skydiving?

I see nothing wrong in promoting the sport, most people don't really know what we do and what's the point of it until we tell them about it. Many people wouldn't have started if it weren't for friends or family members who are jumpers. Just make sure to tell them it's a high risk activity too. Because it is.

Relax, you can die if you mess up, but it will probably not be by bullet.

I'm a BIG, TOUGH BIGWAY FORMATION SKYDIVER! What are you?

[DougH 270]

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It's just another skill set that one has to have and like anything else, not everyone is going to have it.

How about providing us with a frame of refrence on your expertise on the skydiving skillset. So how many students have you trained?

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[lippy 918]

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So who do you think should skydive?

I'm the first to admit that I'm only human, I don't have lightning fast reflexes, super human streinght or x-ray vision, I'm definitely not part of the COOL gang, and I didn't want to skydive before a friend of mine started and told me all about how much fun it was.

Should I quit skydiving?

I see nothing wrong in promoting the sport, most people don't really know what we do and what's the point of it until we tell them about it. Many people wouldn't have started if it weren't for friends or family members who are jumpers. Just make sure to tell them it's a high risk activity too. Because it is.

+1 The way I read Germain's article, he's suggesting that we, as skydivers, do more to promote the sport. I read your original post here as saying that we shouldn't promote the sport because we might bring out people who shouldn't be skydiving. WTF kinda attitude is that?

How many DZs do you know that are based in small towns, and a lot of the locals don't even know it's there? Let's get the word out that skydiving is here and that it's fun as hell. I don't think anybody's suggesting that we drag these people out to the DZ and force them to get an A license.

I got nuthin

[rehmwa 2]

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I get weary with the implication that skydivers are a special breed, or that the non-skydiving population are somehow less evolved, or less capable, or less alive, than we are.

Agreed. Mostly newbies, -and the snobs- feel that way. Look at all the post about this "brotherhood", "we have a special connection", etc. It's people. No more or less. It's as special as sharing bowling as a sport. We have a lot of egos in the sport, so this is a natural subgroup of the sport to try and rationalize themselvesm using skydiving, as better than the typical person.

As for recruiting for the sport. If someone wants to, that is their personal choice. But I think any expectation of a jumper to just expect others to recruit is out of line unless posted as merely a request. Those businesses that operate at skydiving can recruit all they want as part of their marketing plan. If they want their customer base to recruit, then they should offer sufficient incentives in support of their business. pro-bono recruiting is the individual skydiver's choice only. It's a business and a sport, not a cult (no matter how many newbies act like that until they quit or get used to it).

What's next, mandatory fundraisors for the DZ? government bailouts for the DZ?

1 - IMO, just about anyone can be trained and can do it

2 - I'm not egotistical to think that, just because I love the sport, that every other Tom, Dick and Harry will. Some people just aren't interested. That's especially hard for new skydivers to understand.

3 - I offer share it with some of my friends because I'd like to see if they'd like it too - but never more than once, and only if they act genuinely interested. But little more than that. Because then you become "that" skydiver to your non-jumping friends.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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How many DZs do you know that are based in small towns, and a lot of the locals don't even know it's there? Let's get the word out that skydiving is here and that it's fun as hell.

Hardly any DZs at all that I've been around (in about 22 years in the sport) fit that description.

So I'd suggest you start with your DZO and ask him why his marketting plan sucks so much.

If it's a club, then that's a different animal altogether. Then I'd bring up in the club meetings why your marketing plan sucks so much. See? much different.

Good luck either way, it is fun to share it with friends

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[riggerpaul 1]

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I get weary with the implication that skydivers are a special breed, or that the non-skydiving population are somehow less evolved, or less capable, or less alive, than we are.

Agreed. Mostly newbies, -and the snobs- feel that way. Look at all the post about this "brotherhood", "we have a special connection", etc. It's people. No more or less. It's as special as sharing bowling as a sport. We have a lot of egos in the sport, so this is a natural subgroup of the sport to try and rationalize themselvesm using skydiving, as better than the typical person.

As for recruiting for the sport. If someone wants to, that is their personal choice. But I think any expectation of a jumper to just expect others to recruit is out of line unless posted as merely a request. Those businesses that operate at skydiving can recruit all they want as part of their marketing plan. If they want their customer base to recruit, then they should offer sufficient incentives in support of their business. pro-bono recruiting is the individual skydiver's choice only. It's a business and a sport, not a cult (no matter how many newbies act like that until they quit or get used to it).

What's next, mandatory fundraisors for the DZ? government bailouts for the DZ?

1 - IMO, just about anyone can be trained and can do it

2 - I'm not egotistical to think that, just because I love the sport, that every other Tom, Dick and Harry will. Some people just aren't interested. That's especially hard for new skydivers to understand.

3 - I offer share it with some of my friends because I'd like to see if they'd like it too - but never more than once, and only if they act genuinely interested. But little more than that. Because then you become "that" skydiver to your non-jumping friends.

So, why are there psych studies that say we are a tiny portion of the population that seeks whatever it is we get from skydiving?

I don't disagree that almost anyone can be trained to do it.

But the want or the need to do is still something out of the ordinary, which is to say, it sets us apart.

There's no evidence that this makes us better, but it does make us different.

The problem I have with "training almost anyone to do it" is that I have seen plenty of people who, training notwithstanding, don't seem to appreciate the dangers involved. They don't care to learn enough about their gear to take care of themselves. They don't care to spend enough time at the dz to really be current enough. Etc, etc.

Of course, being a rigger, I have a particular interest in knowledge of gear. I feel that knowing one's gear is the only way to continue while presenting the least danger to oneself and others. Not knowing when your gear presents a danger, for instance, of a premature deployment means that you are relying on chance to get you through, be it the chance that someone else will notice it, or the chance that it just won't happen to you on this jump.

So, while it is true that the general skills are easy to teach, maintaining the necessary level of interest is not at all guaranteed by that training.

Most everybody who has the least need or interest drives a car. Some of those drivers have accidents of one sort or another all the time. Some of those drivers go for decades without a mishap.

In driving, the price you pay for doing it poorly is usually higher insurance, or occasionally but really quite rarely, a serious injury or death to yourself or someone else.

But in skydiving, the consequences get very serious very quickly. Some people appreciate that, and others do not.

I'd really prefer that the ones who don't appreciate it stay on the ground.

If that makes me a snob, so be it.

[lippy 918]

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How many DZs do you know that are based in small towns, and a lot of the locals don't even know it's there? Let's get the word out that skydiving is here and that it's fun as hell.

Hardly any DZs at all that I've been around (in about 22 years in the sport) fit that description.

I guess that either you've not spent a lot of those 22 years at smaller dropzones, or that you've not talked to a lot of locals. At DZs all through Canada and the US, and a few in South America, I've been surprised how many people don't realize that they could be skydiving right in their own backyard.

Obviously anybody who lives in Eloy knows there's skydiving there, but a lot of Cessna DZs don't have that kind of recognition from the locals.

I got nuthin

[zipplewrath 1]

Oh, technically I haven't trained anyone. I mean, I've worked with the newbies and all. I've probably got as many jumps with folks with less than 200 jumps as I do the upper end. 23 years of jumping, I've seen alot of folks, watched my share die too. Someone used to make reference to "craters waiting for a grid reference". Folks who had managed to get through AFF, but just didn't really seem to get it. Ones a friend of mine who only walks with canes a braces now. There was a girl that bounced between several of the local DZ's here, washing out of one program after another, before she found some AFF instructor to work with her for weeks. Finally managed to graduate, and before 50 jumps, had busted both legs. I've seen alot of folks die in this sport. Some were big surprises, some were of the type where you shook your head and muttered "took longer than I thought". It's not a sport for everyone. Sometimes you see them self select themselves out of the sport, usually after someone dies. They suddenly understand that you REALLY CAN DIE, and that's all it takes, their gone. It doesn't take courage, or bravery, or brilliance. It's just something we used to call "air aware" and some folks have it and some folks don't, just like any other sport or skill set.

[zipplewrath 1]

"So who do you think should skydive?"

People who understand this very simple expression, and choose to do it anyway:

You could die having this much fun.


You have to be able to understand the risks, and then when (not if) one of those situations occur where the problems are happening to you, you have to be able to stay focused on the procedures that need to be followed. Not just react emotionally and bury a toggle, or dump a reserve into a main, or stare at the ground until impact.

[pinkfairy 0]

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"So who do you think should skydive?"

People who understand this very simple expression, and choose to do it anyway:

You could die having this much fun.


You have to be able to understand the risks, and then when (not if) one of those situations occur where the problems are happening to you, you have to be able to stay focused on the procedures that need to be followed. Not just react emotionally and bury a toggle, or dump a reserve into a main, or stare at the ground until impact.

There are many people who will be able to understand the risk to a sufficient degree, and who will still want to do it, but who don't do it right now because they don't know about skydiving. They don't know that it's a sport, and that we do it because it's fun.

I don't see promoting the sport as something that conflicts with getting the right kind of people to skydive. We just have to make sure to tell them about the risks as well as the rewards. And vice versa. This is not BASE jumping, I can see no reason to tell everyone "It's unsafe, now go away!".

And the things you mention there has been done by intelligent and experienced people like you and me who were fully aware of the risks. I've seen people turn low, and they were not "craters waiting to happen" (well, are not, they are walking around with varying amounts of metal in them).

The only way of eliminating human error in skydiving, would be to remove the skydivers.

As it is, we are just a bunch of normal people who enjoy jumping out of perfectly good airplanes.

Relax, you can die if you mess up, but it will probably not be by bullet.

I'm a BIG, TOUGH BIGWAY FORMATION SKYDIVER! What are you?

[fasted3 0]

You make a great point:

People who don't understand that you can die skydiving should not do it.

I guess that rules out a lot of people.

But what do I know?

[AndyBoyd 0]

"Mostly newbies, -and the snobs- feel that way. Look at all the post about this "brotherhood", "we have a special connection", etc. It's people. No more or less. It's as special as sharing bowling as a sport. We have a lot of egos in the sport, so this is a natural subgroup of the sport to try and rationalize themselves, using skydiving, as better than the typical person."

Cool thread drift.

I agree 100%. About 2200 of my jumps are either tandems or AFF. I can count on one hand the number of people I thought should not be in the sport because of lack of skill, understanding, awareness, or whatever. The vast majority of people can be trained to be competent skydivers, if they want to be. The fact that most people don't want to skydive doesn't make us unusually skilled or talented. It just means we're all a little crazy.

[zipplewrath 1]

"And the things you mention there has been done by intelligent and experienced people like you and me..."

Ummmm, speak for yourself. I never buried a toggle (unitentionally or inappropriately), I never dumped a reserve into a main, and I never ground locked. And if you've done these things, and are still alive, you need to have a very serious discussion with yourself about continuing.

"There are many people who will be able to understand the risk to a sufficient degree, and who will still want to do it, but who don't do it right now because they don't know about skydiving. They don't know that it's a sport, and that we do it because it's fun."

I'm curious about the basis for this statement. I don't think I've ever met anyone that doesn't know it's a sport and that one can do it recreationally.

[AllisonH 0]

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I'm curious about the basis for this statement. I don't think I've ever met anyone that doesn't know it's a sport and that one can do it recreationally.

Until I read an article about the skydiving club in my university's newspaper it had never occurred to me that it was something regular people did all the time. I don't know that I was really surprised by it, it was simply not something I'd ever considered. Perhaps that isn't the norm, but I can't be the only one who'd never seen skydiving or known anyone who jumped outside the military.

[zipplewrath 1]

Wow, after the X-games and all the moutain dew commercials, I'd figure that's just about as deep into popular culture as one could hope to burrow.

[AllisonH 0]

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Wow, after the X-games and all the moutain dew commercials, I'd figure that's just about as deep into popular culture as one could hope to burrow.

I hardly ever watch TV, and even if I did I would have switched channels if the X-games were on. I guess that at least partially explains my lack of exposure to skydiving in my pre-jumping days.

[baronn 111]

What is really so amazing about this whole subject is the basics of skydiving marketing are completely overlooked. Someone I know who runs one of the most successful DZ's once told me he believes less than 5% of those that could skydive actually do. I think that's about right. Just look at how the infighting and competitive nature between DZ's is and it's easy to see the worst enemy is not the market, but how it's run. Imagine if instead of all this internal backstabbing, there was actually a well-planned, executable mktg. campaign that increased the exposure in a positive way. How about instead of sueing Skyride, an alliance that changed the way they sell it and open the whole membership to their customers? When a new student arrives to learn, they don't get dinked around and ripped off? There are a few places that do this and are not seeing a reduction in their #'s. As a matter of fact, they're seeing an increase. I experienced all of this and in spite of that, I went on to get my license and a bunch of ratings. Now I run into the political side of the business of the sport and have had difficulty finding a place where I can be treated fair and rewarded for some hard work. Make it more condusive to getting involved , reward dedication, cut the backstabbing, add some cooperation and all the other problems will solve themselves. I doubt I will live long enough to ever see this happen.