downwind landings

[happythoughts 0]

You do not have to land in the main landing area.
You cannot run 15mph.
Find a spot where you can safely land and walk back.

Think about your "outs" before jumping. and think about it at 1,000 ft - not 100 ft.

At my dz, we will come pick you up!

(Before anyone whines about swoopers, I am talking about people who plan to land safely into the wind and don't.)

-episode 1-
Three weeks ago, I see a very small-size jumper, with over 100 jumps, do a downwind on a 15mph day. They did the "tumbleweed" landing. Step, knees, arms, tuck, roll, flip, (repeat roll-flip for 10 ft).

Lots of bruises and aches later.

-episode 2-
Last weekend, 10-15mph. Last jumper landing, student gear, downwind at 50 ft, approaching the concrete taxiway. What is wrong with this picture?

To their right, 5 acres of open field. Straight ahead, the main landing area.

Why didn't they select the open field and do a flat turn at 300 ft?

Result - 2 step, a superman leap with arms out, sliding on their stomach for 10 ft, legs starting to lift off the ground. Jumper was ok.

What happens when the legs come over the head?
Jumper dies.

I haven't seen this topic beaten to death lately, so I'd just like to say "Stop doing that".

[Feeblemind 1]

As a good friend taught me:

Three very important things to remeber prior to exiting the aircraft:

1) Parachute - Get a landable one over your head!
2) Para-hike - land safely, better a long walk than option #3.
3) Paramedic!!

Fire Safety Tip: Don't fry bacon while naked

[Kris 0]

It also helps to practice, practice, practice. At my DZ, we're faced with crosswind landings a lot of the time, due to the way the experienced jumper landing area is setup.

I've done so many, in so many different types of wind strengths, that I don't even worry about it any more.

As for downwind landings, I've done a few as well, intentionally, so that I'd know how to handle them if I had to do one. I started with mild winds, and worked up to about a 10-12mph wind.

Of course, I always have my landing area picked out by 1000' and I constantly practice flat/flare turns as well.

Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™

[nicknitro71 0]

With all the due respect I think you are sending the wrong message here.

Downwind landings can be done safely even in 15 MPH winds. Yes you cannot run 15 mph but you can slide and keep flying and flaring the canopy ,it's actually a lot of fun

Many jumpers got hurt or killed because they made turns too close to the ground to get upwind because they were scared to land downwind.

What hurts and kills is not horizontal speed but the vertical one.

Teach people to do downwind landings starting with some mild winds like 2-5 mph.

Just my 0.02.

Memento Audere Semper

903

[Fast 0]

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With all the due respect I think you are sending the wrong message here.

Downwind landings can be done safely even in 15 MPH winds. Yes you cannot run 15 mph but you can slide and keep flying and flaring the canopy ,it's actually a lot of fun

Many jumpers got hurt or killed because they made turns too close to the ground to get upwind because they were scared to land downwind.

What hurts and kills is not horizontal speed but the vertical one.

Teach people to do downwind landings starting with some mild winds like 2-5 mph.

Just my 0.02.

It seems that the people this is addressed at are the less experienced people who probally can't manage to slide out a landing because they haven't learned that skill yet.

- You don't have to make it back. If you don't try to make it back and land off you still have your legs to walk back to the DZ.
- You shouldn't turn low, but know how and when to flat turn so that you can save yourself if you put yourself in a bad situation.
- Know where you are going to land by 1000 feet. Don't just hope your going to make it somewhere. Know that you will make it. If you aren't sure your going to make it... pick somewhere you know you can. Refer to point 1.
- Don't panic, turn low, and impact in a turn
- Practice landing in differenent conditions in a controlled and safe manner with advice of your instructors


That sum it up ok?

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[happythoughts 0]

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With all the due respect I think you are sending the wrong message here.

My message is this: An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Don't get into a bad situation by planning and thinking early.

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Downwind landings can be done safely even in 15 MPH winds. Yes you cannot run 15 mph but you can slide and keep flying and flaring the canopy ,it's actually a lot of fun

If you are an experienced jumper, perhaps. There are a lot of people who can't land a canopy into a 5mph wind. Those are the people that I am trying to keep out of this situation.

In the last month, I have witnessed two jumpers with 100 or less jumps doing downwind landings that resulted in painful necks, backs, and wrists. Non-fatal doesn't mean pain-free.

I would like jumpers to think first, not panic later.

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Many jumpers got hurt or killed because they made turns too close to the ground to get upwind because they were scared to land downwind.

Absolutely true. I would encourage them to plan their landing earlier also. They could avoid picking one of two bad alternatives.

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What hurts and kills is not horizontal speed but the vertical one.

In the last couple of years, there was a jumper sliding in on their stomach whose body came up over their head and fatally snapped their neck.

I watched a friend fracture his neck on a 60-mph downwind into the pond. 2.5 flips. That is, of course, an extreme example.

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Teach people to do downwind landings starting with some mild winds like 2-5 mph.

Excellent idea. I totally agree. A little coaching and pre-training is always good.

[okalb 104]

The downwind you were talking about was an AFF level 1 student. The instructor was on the radio telling the student to turn for quite a while. The student never turned and just kept flying straight downwind. When the instructor approached the student and asked why she didn't turn when instructed the student replied that she thought she was too low to turn and was told not to turn that low.

The instructor explained that she would not have been telling her to turn if it were too low for her to turn safely. The student realized that she made a mistake, dusted herself off and went up and did her level 2.

I would much rather see the student do what she did than turn too low. In most cases a downwinder just means a mouthful of dirt and a bruised ego. Turning into wind too low can be fatal.

-OK

Time flies like an arrow....fruit flies like a banana

[happythoughts 0]

Watching that person slide in was scary. Especially after they didn't get up right away. Glad to know it wasn't a problem.

At the end of the day, we were discussing it and the similar landing about a month ago. A person with 100+ jumps identified themselves as that person. They said they got a quick chat from our S&TA afterwards. They also said that they got a sore neck, back, and shoulder from it.

When something occurs twice in a month, it becomes worth mentioning. I can't believe that it only happens in front of me at one dz.

I've seen people fly all the way across the dz without turning and land in an isolated tree. Students do that stuff. Once they are off student status, they need to make better decisions.

A better decision in this case is an earlier one.

[okalb 104]

Don't get me wrong Bill, I agree that there is a problem. I am just not sure how to fix it. As we all know, it is VERY important that new jumpers understand the risks of low turns. We stress that in the first jump courses as we should. We also try to teach them the difference between a turn that is low and a turn that is too low, but sometimes they don't get that right away. New jumpers are usually more likely to choose not to turn because the are not sure if they are too low or not. I would prefer they do that than turn too low, so it is a very fine line.

While I agree that a flat turn could solve the problem, it is not something that you can necessarily teach during the first jump course. There is only so much that someone can hear and comprehend at one time, so you have to spoon feed them stuff little by little. My biggest complaint about the girl last weekend was not that she made the decision to land downwind, but that she didn't PLF.

Newer jumpers often get very focused when getting closer to the ground under canopy. On my AFF level 4, I was a few hundred feet off the ground heading downwind towards the road and power lines. Arms straight up in the air I did nothing. I was so focused on not turning low I did absolutely nothing. My instructor was screaming at me on the radio to turn. It wasn't registering in my brain. All of the sudden my instructor's voice registered and I made a hard 180 to the left followed immediately by pulling down the right toggle to flare. It was my first hook turn. I was very lucky. It was also a good thing that I was under a manta 288 at the time. You just never know what is going to go through the mind of a student.

Time flies like an arrow....fruit flies like a banana

[TIETZE 0]

quote "the student replied that she thought she was too low to turn and was told not to turn that low. "

Good for her!!!

I got to agree with you, nicknitro and kris on this one.

Downwind and crosswind landings should be part of normal student training.

If you go to a dz that has a "first person down determines the landing direction" rule, you may very well have to land downwind or cross wind on a day that is light and variable.

quote" What hurts and kills is not horizontal speed but the vertical one. "

AMEN!

Landing priorities...

1.)LAND SOFTLY, even if it is downwind into obstacles.
2.)LAND SOFTLY, avoiding obstacles.
3.)LAND SOFTLY, avoiding obstacles, while facing the correct direction, (which may be downwind if that is the way everyone else landed)!


i could be wrong, again.

[phoenixlpr 0]

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Downwind and crosswind landings should be part of normal student training.

Would you take legal liabilities as an instructor?

[rasmack 0]

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Downwind and crosswind landings should be part of normal student training.

Would you take legal liabilities as an instructor?

Would you take legal liabilities for not teaching life-saving techniques?

HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227
“I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.”
- Not quite Oscar Wilde...

[phoenixlpr 0]

Ok. Tell me why cut-away is not in the student program.
I do mean do it real.

I`ve heard it was part of the program in the army (non-US)

[rasmack 0]

Easy now. Just playing the Devil's advocate here

Cut-away can be practised in a hanging harness. It is pretty hard to train landings that way

HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227
“I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.”
- Not quite Oscar Wilde...

[riggerrob 643]

Civilians quit doing intentional cutaways a long time ago because they require specialized equipment and more than $100 of a rigger's time.

The only Army jumpers who still do intentional cutaways tend to be exhibition jumpers like the Golden Knights or Skyhawks. I have built a couple of intentional cutaway rigs for the Skyhawks, but they ended up almost as complicated as tandem rigs.

On the other hand, better - military and civilian - schools have suspended (in hangar) harnesses for practicing cutaway drills a few inches above the ground.

[nicknitro71 0]

Bill, I do see your point don't get me wrong. BUT we should engrave in students' brain that there should be no doubt what to do when faced to the choice of a downwind landing and a low turn to get upwind.
I also agree with you that an accident is made by several links.
I already send this to someone but here is an example:

The spot is long, you don't look down before leaving the plane. You are on a hot 4-way, get carried along scoring points, break at 3.5, pull at 2.5, in the saddle at 1.8. The DZ is far but you think you are going to make it. Now you are at 500' and know you won't make it. You look down and only see a smaller land-able field. Now you are at 100' and realize you are about to land downwind. You grab the toggle to get upwind and splash.

Here are some links that could have broken to avoid the accident:

-Look down before leaving the plane and take it around.

-Look down during the jump and break higher.

-Find an alternate safe landing field right away after you have opened.

-Realize where the wind is coming from and plan a normal patter.

-Land downwind instead of hooking into the ground to get upwind.

Downwind landing MUST be taught, just like any other emergency procedure

Memento Audere Semper

903

[phoenixlpr 0]

Ye ye, and you can swim on dry too.

Have you done it in real? You would notice the difference.

Anyway student are told how to land.

[phoenixlpr 0]

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-Look down before leaving the plane and take it around.

-Look down during the jump and break higher.

-Find an alternate safe landing field right away after you have opened.

-Realize where the wind is coming from and plan a normal patter.

-Land downwind instead of hooking into the ground to get upwind.

Sounds good. But some things are missing for me:

1. Have a plan ....... place and pattern
2. Have a backup plan....
3. Do as you planned if you can do so

I have found myself in trouble when I poorly executed my first plan.

[Jeth 0]

I am a student who had a bad downwind landing. I did a faceplant with my legs spread (ouch!) which injured my knee and ended my season early.

The first thing I learned from this is that I need to know how to PLF. I was never taught in my FJC how to do it, so when I was in that "oh shit" moment, I didn't know what to do. Since then I have learned the PLF, and have practiced it a ton. But having done that, I am still nervous about how to handle that situation if I find myself in it again. It seems to me that PLF is for when you fall VERTICALLY too fast. In my landing, I was going forward like a bat out of hell. Some people say slide (which I'd probably try to do on my hip instead of my butt, but who knows how that'd work out), some people say to PLF.
I am very nervous about trying to PLF if I am coming in fast like that again, for fear of not being able to tuck and go sideways and instead being thrown forward and landing on my head.

I did not do a low 180 to try to get upwind, but I still had a nasty landing which injured me. I'd really like to be more confident about downwind landings cause I'm sure I'll find myself there again. Should I just PLF and hope for the best?

Thanks.
p.s. Yes, I know, I'll ask my instructors. Just looking for more opinions (especially from people who have been there).

"At 13,000 feet nothing else matters."
PFRX!!!!!
Team Funnel #174, Sunshine kisspass #109
My Jump Site

[okalb 104]

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But having done that, I am still nervous about how to handle that situation if I find myself in it again. It seems to me that PLF is for when you fall VERTICALLY too fast. In my landing, I was going forward like a bat out of hell. Some people say slide (which I'd probably try to do on my hip instead of my butt, but who knows how that'd work out), some people say to PLF.

The correct answer is PLF!

Time flies like an arrow....fruit flies like a banana

[Orange1 0]

I also did a downwind landing - luckily we have very soft sand at our DZ and I got away with a couple of bruises (and a mouthful of sand). But in our FJC we were taught - I forgot it then but never will again - that you always do a PLF on a downwind landing. You might want to try actually practising PLFs on normal landings, if you don't mind not standing up in front of everyone else to get you a bit more comfortable with translating forward speed into it?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Jeth 0]

Thanks, thats probably a good idea. I have never done one with a canopy over my head. (Only off a table.) All my jumps so far I have landed softly on my butt. (Or not-so-softly on my face in that 1 case. ) So I don't have to worry about not standing up in front of somebody, I have yet to do it!

"At 13,000 feet nothing else matters."
PFRX!!!!!
Team Funnel #174, Sunshine kisspass #109
My Jump Site

[lauras 0]

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There is only so much that someone can hear and comprehend at one time, so you have to spoon feed them stuff little by little. My biggest complaint about the girl last weekend was not that she made the decision to land downwind, but that she didn't PLF

I was the instructor on the radio on that particular skydive, an AFF Level1/CatA. The student was fully briefed on her canopy flight right before her jump, and she pointed out her playground, downwind, base & final legs both in the landing area and with an aerial photo. While the student didn't respond (she didn't hear the radio) to instruction to turn, I was very relieved that she at least flared at the right height & DID a nice PLF... several times. It scared the crap out of me when she didn't get up right away, but she waved her arms shortly afterwards when I shouted at her on the radio.

When I asked her to tell me about her canopy flight, the student said that she was ovewhelmed by being under canopy, although freefall was great. She remembered what she was supposed to do, but didn't hear the radio after a while and thought she was too low to turn. She was also freaked out by the airplanes parked by the end of the runway and the Otter coming in to land.

The student ended up with a bit of a burn on her ankle and a scratch on her face. I would imagine she was pretty sore the next day too. It could have been so much worse if she hadn't flared and PLFd. It probably also helped that the student is very fit and in good condition.

I think this was a big learning experience for both the student and me...

[okalb 104]

OK, I sit corrected about the PLF but either way, I am glad she landed downwind instead of trying to turn low.

Time flies like an arrow....fruit flies like a banana

[Avion 0]

Durning my canopy controll class, I had the opportunity to experience some down wind landings. Prior to this, I had stood up all my 14 landings to date, and was beginning to think myself naturally talented

Down wind Landing 1, wind between 10 and 15mph, land otherwise normal feet first then slide in on butt. Serve me a slice of humble pie.

Down wind Landing 2, wind between 10 and 15, had to abort planned landing area because wind was blowing me to close to drainage pond. I wanted to avoid gettin backed up into it with my big beginner canopy. I chose to land in the grass between taxiway and runway. Started running out of distance between me and a plane waiting to take off. So, flared early, and dropped about 10-15ft while still moving down wind about 15-20 mph. I said to myself while at the top of the flare, "I gonna PLF THIS ONE!"

Pretty much happened in slow-mo: Feet, calfs, thighs, butt, then back, very smoothly. Before this, I had thought that when PLFing, one would bite into the ground and roll hard. Instead, I slid very easily across the grass to a gently stop, only rolled once.

The end result is, I will now, without hesitation, PLF anything other than a smooth normal landing.

Also, durning that day I PLFed a landing where winds had me backing up durning the flare. That too was surprising easy.

-----------------

I had some one show me how to PLF before I ever jumped. I read how to do them in the Skydivers Handbook. I spent two weeks figuring out how to do them forward, sideways, and backwards. The key is to learn how to tuck your upper body in so you roll in your line of flight.

My AFF course was very brief about PLFs. I told them I already knew how, and they said prove it. So, to their amazement, I got up on a chair and PLFed on the concrete floor of the classroom They told me I could teach the other student in the class how to PLF