ChangoLanzao 0 #26 March 1, 2009 Quote Is a plane less unairworthy for paperwork or certain items.i am not talking about minor paperwork.like some one forgot to put in the logbook. If there's pilot willing to fly it, then it's obviously "airworthy" to someone. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChangoLanzao 0 #27 March 1, 2009 QuoteAny jump plane out there is usually in violation of at least 1 FAR at any time. Here is one for you to look at next time on the plane, does EVERY seatbelt have its TSO label sewn to it? If there are any with out then its technically illegal to use that belt and anyone found to be using it can be written up and have that berth grounded. I was at a boogie a couple of years ago when an FAA jerk held up the entire show on a Saturday morning for exactly this reason. QuotePaul is right, there is a HUGE difference between being legal and being safe. Usually if you are legal by default you are safe but at the same point the FAA can find anything wrong if they look deep enough which makes that item a violation so the plane could be grounded. A few years back a FSDO tried to ground all Otters since they could not find paperwork that was set up for the -300 model for a sliding door modificaiton. As such they wanted to ground the entire fleet until the paperwork was produced on every plane, this was after the planes had been flying this way for 20 years in this configuration. I also agree with Paul. It's up to the FAA to determine airworthiness and having other entities getting involved would just add great confusion without really enhancing safety. There are just too many control freaks out there and enough of them already work for the FAA. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #28 March 1, 2009 QuoteNot everything that is legal is safe and not everything thing that is illegal is unsafe. Skydiving in particular has a terrible track record of judging between the two. Given that it seems incapable, it should probably stick to what's legal. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
godfrog 2 #29 March 1, 2009 I would think that that would be up to the mechanic that does the inspection on the aircraft to call it airworthy or not. if it is operated under part 91 it should be inspected at least once a year by an AI. hopefully in jump ops they do a 100hr inspection!Experience is a difficult teacher, she gives you the test first and the lesson afterward Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Genego 2 #30 March 1, 2009 Tangently related: What if the DZ/DZO doesn't own/operate the aircraft. Not common anymore I know, but when I started (many long years ago) it wan't that uncommon. The airport operator owned the aircraft, the DZ bought their lift tickets from the airport ($1.00 per 1000') and jumped.I live with fear and terror, but sometimes I leave her and go skydiving. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hue-janus 0 #31 March 1, 2009 Really? I'd like to know precisely how many aviation deaths have occurred due to the radio station license not being properly displayed there have been.Quote I guess your interpretation of Simple or Minor and mine are two different values! I was speaking of actual physical inspections, or SDs that were overlooked, many jumpers would possibly consider them "Minor" or "Simple". I am not aware of any deaths that have occured from paperwork not being properly displayed (and since a radio station license has not been required for operation of an aircraft for many years) I don't think you offer would apply. *** If you can prove to me that the number is greater than zero, then I'll concede. Until you can do that, I think you're talking out of your hat. Question? Mismanagement of fuel? Diverted Attention of the Pilot? Improper use of Flight control? Operating beyond experience or ability of pilot? Many people would probablly consider these items as "minor" or "Simple" All of these incidents have resulted in deaths in jump aircarft operation! But a violation is not complying with existing rules of inspection. maintanence, paperwork, and log entries. Regardless of the argument of the extent of the lack of compliance and wheather this lack of action would have contributed to a crash ot not, these are still the rules! The FAA will violate you all the same and any thing that they find wheather applicable or not during investigation of logs after a crash become part of the cause as showing, noncompliant inspections and repairs. ....................................................................... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #32 March 2, 2009 Hey Paul, how about when a DZ/Owner/Operator has received an FAR violation and penalty from the FAA? Should they then loose their USPA group membership?---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pirana 0 #34 March 2, 2009 QuoteQuoteNot everything that is legal is safe and not everything thing that is illegal is unsafe. Skydiving in particular has a terrible track record of judging between the two. Given that it seems incapable, it should probably stick to what's legal. _Am I actually see the record as pretty good. What are the rough numbers? <> About 3 million skydives per year <> About 20 to 30 fatalities per year <> Almost all fatalities being user error So the fatality rate is roughly 1 per 100,000 skydives; and most are user error. Most unfortunate for the few that were not user error, but I think that is a pretty decent record considering the risks involved." . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #35 March 2, 2009 I certainly won't argue those points with you. And...as I said, I may be wrong. I am simply reading it at face value. You point out that I am wrong and I stand corrected although I don't hold with the idea that one bogus post means all subsequent posts are bogus. Giving that background up front could have prevented some of the confusion.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #36 March 2, 2009 You guys are still off on the FAA...the original question was about the USPA. Good point from ChangoLanzao about letting too many fingers into the pie, though.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #37 March 2, 2009 QuoteI actually see the record as pretty good. What are the rough numbers? <> About 3 million skydives per year <> About 20 to 30 fatalities per year <> Almost all fatalities being user error We're not talking about skydiving, we're talking about skydiving aviation operations. Recent major incididents: Twin Otter, Sullivan Mo - Destroyed, 6 fatalities. Serious Maintenance issues discovered. Cessna 206, Mt Vernon Mo - Destroyed, 2 fatalities. Serious Maintenance and pilot training issues discovered. Cessna 182, Marion Mt - Destroyed, 5 fatalities. Overweight, insufficient pre-flight. Cessna Caravan, Naches WA. Destroyed, 10 fatalities. VFR Flight into known IRF. And that's just in the last TWO YEARS. I repeat: Skydiving (aviation operations) in particular has a terrible track record of judging between what's safe and what's legal. Give that it seems incapable, it should probably stick to what's legal. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChangoLanzao 0 #38 March 2, 2009 QuoteHey Paul, how about when a DZ/Owner/Operator has received an FAR violation and penalty from the FAA? Should they then loose their USPA group membership? If you were a truck driver and received a ticket and were fined by the state police, should you lose your job? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #39 March 2, 2009 If it was a condition of your job or your pledge to your job, Yes you should lose the Job. MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #40 March 2, 2009 QuoteAny jump plane out there is usually in violation of at least 1 FAR at any time. Here is one for you to look at next time on the plane, does EVERY seatbelt have its TSO label sewn to it? If there are any with out then its technically illegal to use that belt and anyone found to be using it can be written up and have that berth grounded. Paul is right, there is a HUGE difference between being legal and being safe. .................................................................. For example, you could have Cessna-original seat belts with the proper TSO tags sewn on, bolted onto the original anchor points, but they are faded to half-strength ... and are still legal. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ChangoLanzao 0 #41 March 2, 2009 Quote If it was a condition of your job or your pledge to your job, Yes you should lose the Job. Matt I was thinking that the correct answer is "it depends..." Anyway, nevermind; I think this wasn't really a good analogy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites matthewcline 0 #42 March 2, 2009 I didn't think it was a bad one. MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #43 March 2, 2009 QuoteQuoteHey Paul, how about when a DZ/Owner/Operator has received an FAR violation and penalty from the FAA? Should they then loose their USPA group membership? If you were a truck driver and received a ticket and were fined by the state police, should you lose your job? Not the same situation. Now if you were part of a trucker's organization that represented trucking and helped reduce unneeded regulation, and to be a part of that organization you pledged to stick to all current regulations, then when you received that ticket, wouldn't it look like the organization was pretty ineffective at "self regulating" truckers if they didn't boot you out, or at the very least document a warning and expected time frame and proofs for corrective actions?---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites quade 4 #44 March 2, 2009 QuoteHey Paul, how about when a DZ/Owner/Operator has received an FAR violation and penalty from the FAA? Should they then loose their USPA group membership? Again, I'd have to say it depends a LOT on the nature of the violation. It's a noble goal to strive for perfection. However, the reality is that you absolutely have to leave some leeway for a certain amount of human error, otherwise, I can absolutely guarantee there would be NO DZ/Owner/Operators in the USPA. They ALL can be found to have minor flaws. On the other hand, there is such a thing as criminal negligence. In those cases you're not really going to have to worry too much about them getting tossed out of the USPA as the FAA is simply going to run them out of business. Lastly, if a skydiver has concerns about a particular drop zone, ones that will actually kill somebody, they should bring it up with the management face to face, man to man, and not like some little pussy whining about it behind his back on the internet. If the DZO doesn't do anything, then take your friends and business elsewhere while letting the DZO know why. If you actually think the DZ is going to kill people by continuing their practices, you should also contact the FAA. I'm not saying you won't get blacklisted at that DZ. But if you're actually that concerned about a real issue, who gives a fuck?quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ChangoLanzao 0 #45 March 2, 2009 Quote Quote Quote Hey Paul, how about when a DZ/Owner/Operator has received an FAR violation and penalty from the FAA? Should they then loose their USPA group membership? If you were a truck driver and received a ticket and were fined by the state police, should you lose your job? Not the same situation. Now if you were part of a trucker's organization that represented trucking and helped reduce unneeded regulation, and to be a part of that organization you pledged to stick to all current regulations, then when you received that ticket, wouldn't it look like the organization was pretty ineffective at "self regulating" truckers if they didn't boot you out, or at the very least document a warning and expected time frame and proofs for corrective actions? Yes. I think it would be reasonable to document a warning, but there has to be some sort of allowance for severity of violations. My reading of the OP is that the USPA should revoke group membership based on some vague definition of "airworthy" based on mechanical problems. USPA has enough to do. I say leave it up to the FAA to determine whether planes and/or pilots are allowed to fly. The USPA has enough of a challenge determining which parachutists should be allowed to fly, not by imposing the heavy hand of government, but through education, certification, and and BSR's. It isn't a DZ operators organization, is it? Now, if you were part of a DZ Operator's organization that represented DZ's and helped reduce unneeded regulation of DZ's, and to be a part of that organization you pledged to stick to all current regulations, then the trucker's organization analogy would apply. "The United States Parachute Association (USPA) is a voluntary membership organization of individuals who enjoy and support the sport of skydiving. The association is incorporated in New York and follows the constitution and by-laws contained in the USPA Governance Manual. The purpose of USPA is three-fold: to promote safe skydiving through training, licensing, and instructor qualification programs; to ensure skydiving’s rightful place on airports and in the airspace system, and to promote competition and record-setting programs." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites quade 4 #46 March 2, 2009 Are you aware of how the USPA Group Member program works?quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,991 #47 March 2, 2009 >Lastly, if a skydiver has concerns about a particular drop zone, ones that >will actually kill somebody, they should bring it up with the management >face to face, man to man, and not like some little pussy whining about it >behind his back on the internet. If the DZO doesn't do anything, then >take your friends and business elsewhere while letting the DZO know why. Yes. In an ideal world this would work. Since we don't live in an ideal world, it rarely does. People who leave a DZ because of safety issues are immediately labeled as malcontents who are playing politics and pushing their favorite DZ over a competitor. They can take their friends with them - but the people most at risk, the newer grads who do not yet know anything about which is the safer DZ, remain at risk. > But if you're actually that concerned about a real issue, who gives a fuck? Because in many places in the US, that would effectively mean that you cannot skydive. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ChangoLanzao 0 #48 March 2, 2009 Quote Are you aware of how the USPA Group Member program works? Does the USPA Group Member program actually work? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites quade 4 #49 March 2, 2009 Bill, I understand what you're saying, but, what are the alternatives? If you've spoken with the DZO about the issue and it's not resolved, what else can a person do besides walk away and contact the FAA? Certainly you're not suggesting that the skydiver do anything more drastic like sabotage the aircraft so it can't be flown?quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites quade 4 #50 March 2, 2009 Quote Quote Are you aware of how the USPA Group Member program works? Does the USPA Group Member program actually work? As an advocate group for drop zones representing their interests in Washington? Absolutely!quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 2 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. 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ChangoLanzao 0 #41 March 2, 2009 Quote If it was a condition of your job or your pledge to your job, Yes you should lose the Job. Matt I was thinking that the correct answer is "it depends..." Anyway, nevermind; I think this wasn't really a good analogy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #42 March 2, 2009 I didn't think it was a bad one. MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #43 March 2, 2009 QuoteQuoteHey Paul, how about when a DZ/Owner/Operator has received an FAR violation and penalty from the FAA? Should they then loose their USPA group membership? If you were a truck driver and received a ticket and were fined by the state police, should you lose your job? Not the same situation. Now if you were part of a trucker's organization that represented trucking and helped reduce unneeded regulation, and to be a part of that organization you pledged to stick to all current regulations, then when you received that ticket, wouldn't it look like the organization was pretty ineffective at "self regulating" truckers if they didn't boot you out, or at the very least document a warning and expected time frame and proofs for corrective actions?---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #44 March 2, 2009 QuoteHey Paul, how about when a DZ/Owner/Operator has received an FAR violation and penalty from the FAA? Should they then loose their USPA group membership? Again, I'd have to say it depends a LOT on the nature of the violation. It's a noble goal to strive for perfection. However, the reality is that you absolutely have to leave some leeway for a certain amount of human error, otherwise, I can absolutely guarantee there would be NO DZ/Owner/Operators in the USPA. They ALL can be found to have minor flaws. On the other hand, there is such a thing as criminal negligence. In those cases you're not really going to have to worry too much about them getting tossed out of the USPA as the FAA is simply going to run them out of business. Lastly, if a skydiver has concerns about a particular drop zone, ones that will actually kill somebody, they should bring it up with the management face to face, man to man, and not like some little pussy whining about it behind his back on the internet. If the DZO doesn't do anything, then take your friends and business elsewhere while letting the DZO know why. If you actually think the DZ is going to kill people by continuing their practices, you should also contact the FAA. I'm not saying you won't get blacklisted at that DZ. But if you're actually that concerned about a real issue, who gives a fuck?quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChangoLanzao 0 #45 March 2, 2009 Quote Quote Quote Hey Paul, how about when a DZ/Owner/Operator has received an FAR violation and penalty from the FAA? Should they then loose their USPA group membership? If you were a truck driver and received a ticket and were fined by the state police, should you lose your job? Not the same situation. Now if you were part of a trucker's organization that represented trucking and helped reduce unneeded regulation, and to be a part of that organization you pledged to stick to all current regulations, then when you received that ticket, wouldn't it look like the organization was pretty ineffective at "self regulating" truckers if they didn't boot you out, or at the very least document a warning and expected time frame and proofs for corrective actions? Yes. I think it would be reasonable to document a warning, but there has to be some sort of allowance for severity of violations. My reading of the OP is that the USPA should revoke group membership based on some vague definition of "airworthy" based on mechanical problems. USPA has enough to do. I say leave it up to the FAA to determine whether planes and/or pilots are allowed to fly. The USPA has enough of a challenge determining which parachutists should be allowed to fly, not by imposing the heavy hand of government, but through education, certification, and and BSR's. It isn't a DZ operators organization, is it? Now, if you were part of a DZ Operator's organization that represented DZ's and helped reduce unneeded regulation of DZ's, and to be a part of that organization you pledged to stick to all current regulations, then the trucker's organization analogy would apply. "The United States Parachute Association (USPA) is a voluntary membership organization of individuals who enjoy and support the sport of skydiving. The association is incorporated in New York and follows the constitution and by-laws contained in the USPA Governance Manual. The purpose of USPA is three-fold: to promote safe skydiving through training, licensing, and instructor qualification programs; to ensure skydiving’s rightful place on airports and in the airspace system, and to promote competition and record-setting programs." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #46 March 2, 2009 Are you aware of how the USPA Group Member program works?quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #47 March 2, 2009 >Lastly, if a skydiver has concerns about a particular drop zone, ones that >will actually kill somebody, they should bring it up with the management >face to face, man to man, and not like some little pussy whining about it >behind his back on the internet. If the DZO doesn't do anything, then >take your friends and business elsewhere while letting the DZO know why. Yes. In an ideal world this would work. Since we don't live in an ideal world, it rarely does. People who leave a DZ because of safety issues are immediately labeled as malcontents who are playing politics and pushing their favorite DZ over a competitor. They can take their friends with them - but the people most at risk, the newer grads who do not yet know anything about which is the safer DZ, remain at risk. > But if you're actually that concerned about a real issue, who gives a fuck? Because in many places in the US, that would effectively mean that you cannot skydive. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChangoLanzao 0 #48 March 2, 2009 Quote Are you aware of how the USPA Group Member program works? Does the USPA Group Member program actually work? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #49 March 2, 2009 Bill, I understand what you're saying, but, what are the alternatives? If you've spoken with the DZO about the issue and it's not resolved, what else can a person do besides walk away and contact the FAA? Certainly you're not suggesting that the skydiver do anything more drastic like sabotage the aircraft so it can't be flown?quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #50 March 2, 2009 Quote Quote Are you aware of how the USPA Group Member program works? Does the USPA Group Member program actually work? As an advocate group for drop zones representing their interests in Washington? Absolutely!quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
