billvon 2,991 #51 March 2, 2009 >If you've spoken with the DZO about the issue and it's not resolved, >what else can a person do besides walk away and contact the FAA? Talk to the S+TA. If that doesn't work, talk to a your regional director or some BOD people. If that doesn't work, go to a USPA BOD meeting and present your issues there. If that doesn't work, go to the FAA. On a parallel track, try to tell local jumpers what the risks are. Write an article for Parachutist concerning the safety issue (without bitching about one particular DZ, of course.) Get outside help. If it's a canopy traffic issue (for example) and they won't listen to you they might listen to Brian Germain or someone from PD. If it's unsafe operation of a King Air they might listen to Mike Mullins. >Certainly you're not suggesting that the skydiver do anything more >drastic like sabotage the aircraft so it can't be flown? Uh, no. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChangoLanzao 0 #52 March 2, 2009 Quote>Lastly, if a skydiver has concerns about a particular drop zone, ones that >will actually kill somebody, they should bring it up with the management >face to face, man to man, and not like some little pussy whining about it >behind his back on the internet. If the DZO doesn't do anything, then >take your friends and business elsewhere while letting the DZO know why. Yes. In an ideal world this would work. Since we don't live in an ideal world, it rarely does. People who leave a DZ because of safety issues are immediately labeled as malcontents who are playing politics and pushing their favorite DZ over a competitor. They can take their friends with them - but the people most at risk, the newer grads who do not yet know anything about which is the safer DZ, remain at risk. > But if you're actually that concerned about a real issue, who gives a fuck? Because in many places in the US, that would effectively mean that you cannot skydive. That brings up an interesting question. What about skydiving at DZ's outside the U.S.? Would membership in USPA group member program mean that member DZ's outside the U.S. always operate aircraft that are "airworthy". Since FAA regulations don't apply there, should the USPA have their own definition of what is "airworthy" that applies anywhere around the world so that they can use the same criteria to revoke group membership in the name of safety? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #53 March 2, 2009 No surprise here Bill but I disagree. If the issue is serious enough that you feel lives are in imminent danger and after talking with the DZO no action is taken, there is, in my opinion, no advantage in delaying FAA involvement. I'd absolutely give the DZ an appropriate time to deal with the matter, but wait for a BOD meeting? That's ridiculous.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChangoLanzao 0 #54 March 2, 2009 Quote Quote Quote Are you aware of how the USPA Group Member program works? Does the USPA Group Member program actually work? As an advocate group for drop zones representing their interests in Washington? Absolutely! The paragraph that I quoted is from the USPA's "USPA at a glance" statement. It is the first paragraph. Group member drop zones are mentioned in the third paragraph, where the emphasis is on adherence to the BSR's, not "airworthines" of jump planes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #55 March 2, 2009 Quote Quote Quote Quote Are you aware of how the USPA Group Member program works? Does the USPA Group Member program actually work? As an advocate group for drop zones representing their interests in Washington? Absolutely! The paragraph that I quoted is from the USPA's "USPA at a glance" statement. It it the first paragraph. Group member drop zones are mentioned in the third paragraph, where the emphasis is on adherence to the BSR's, not "airworthines" of jump planes. I think if you read the BSRs you'll find a line about following FAA regulations.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #56 March 2, 2009 >If the issue is serious enough that you feel lives are in imminent danger >and after talking with the DZO no action is taken, there is, in my opinion, >no advantage in delaying FAA involvement. Yes, but it is rarely that clear-cut. If someone is out there using paraglider reserves and using ol' unlicensed Uncle Harry to fly the plane, then yes, go straight to the FAA. But usually it's not going to be so easy to decide what's an "imminent danger." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #57 March 2, 2009 Quote>If the issue is serious enough that you feel lives are in imminent danger >and after talking with the DZO no action is taken, there is, in my opinion, >no advantage in delaying FAA involvement. Yes, but it is rarely that clear-cut. If someone is out there using paraglider reserves and using ol' unlicensed Uncle Harry to fly the plane, then yes, go straight to the FAA. But usually it's not going to be so easy to decide what's an "imminent danger." I agree that the average skydiver doesn't have a freekin' clue about what is and is not going to kill him on the next flight if something isn't done about it, which is why up front I said he needs to talk to the DZO.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChangoLanzao 0 #58 March 2, 2009 Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote Are you aware of how the USPA Group Member program works? Does the USPA Group Member program actually work? As an advocate group for drop zones representing their interests in Washington? Absolutely! The paragraph that I quoted is from the USPA's "USPA at a glance" statement. It it the first paragraph. Group member drop zones are mentioned in the third paragraph, where the emphasis is on adherence to the BSR's, not "airworthines" of jump planes. I think if you read the BSRs you'll find a line about following FAA regulations. Yes there is one line about that. ETA: Actually two. The emphasis is on wearing seat belts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #59 March 2, 2009 So . . . if you put it all together, what do you get? Yes, the USPA has every right to toss out a DZ from its Group Member program for FAA violations. Whether or not they actually do this depends on the severity of the issue in question.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChangoLanzao 0 #60 March 2, 2009 Quote So . . . if you put it all together, what do you get? Yes, the USPA has every right to toss out a DZ from its Group Member program for FAA violations. Whether or not they actually do this depends on the severity of the issue in question. Yup. Actually, the USPA, according to the group member pledge, can toss out a DZ for "ANY REASON WHATSOEVER', given 30 days notice. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
IanHarrop 42 #61 March 2, 2009 Quote Quote So . . . if you put it all together, what do you get? Yes, the USPA has every right to toss out a DZ from its Group Member program for FAA violations. Whether or not they actually do this depends on the severity of the issue in question. Yup. Actually, the USPA, according to the group member pledge, can toss out a DZ for "ANY REASON WHATSOEVER', given 30 days notice. And then they can get sued again, like they did over the Skyride issue, and end up paying out like they did that time. USPA, like CSPA, is toothless. "Where troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops, that's where you'll find me" Dorothy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChangoLanzao 0 #62 March 2, 2009 Should Southwest Airlines (SEE THIS) lose their membership in the Air Transport Association. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LloydDobbler 2 #63 March 3, 2009 QuoteShould Southwest Airlines (SEE THIS) lose their membership in the Air Transport Association. Depends on what their contract with the Air Transport Association says. If they agreed in writing that they'd lose their membership if the FAA fined them for safety regulations, then yes. Seems pretty clear-cut, really.Signatures are the new black. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cutaway68 4 #64 March 3, 2009 Hobbit Don't Pull Low... Unless You ARE!!! The pessimist says, "It can't get any worse than this." The optimist says, "Sure, it can." Be fun, have safe. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bdiver1 0 #65 March 3, 2009 If a DZO has ran the DZ in the past knowingly braking FAA regulations and BSR's would thay talk about it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
