I fall fast... Trouble slowing down...

[Tuna-Salad 0]

I have a bad habit of getting below formations and not being able to get back up. Looking under arm, hugging beach ball, almost at a de-arch to cup air. I have a baggy suit, but am a fat fuck with a natural arch. Short of getting wings between my sleeves (and quitting the beer) what else can I do?
I recently got an altitrack and of the 4 jumps my avg fall rate is between 129 - 134 mph. I actually got down to 108 saturday (But really don't know how accurate that is)

I can come down to people and for the most part keep a 4 way or something level by adjusting fall rate, but to say the least when I get below a group it makes me feel like shit like I ruined the dive and should be able to get back up the 20 feet or so. I mean with 100+ jumps it looks bad on me to not be able to complete a 4 way because we undocked and I got below the formation. I don't have "Mad skills" but I can keep up with almost anyone I have jumped with recently.. until I get low.

Millions of my potential children died on your daughters' face last night.

[DSE 5]

Even "fat f**ks" can slow down quite a bit...you did fine on your jump with me, until the end.
My recommendation is to not worry about the numbers much...worry about relativity.
One thing I noticed (and I think we talked about) is your knees being high, it's that 'natural arch' thing.

Lift up your butt like you are helping the proctologist get a better angle. Arms more out than down.
I'd also recommend spending a little time in the tunnel where you can have a constant speed and a coach to help you.
Baggy suits help, but if you'll recall, I wore a Tshirt on a tandem I shot, and you're not much heavier (if any at all) than I am. Focus on this aspect with someone working specifically with you, you'll pick it up with a little help from someone else, not a ProTrack. You're a quick learner, I watched you pick up your forward/backward movement very fast on our jump.
Screwing up and feeling like sh** is how we learn. Don't take it as screwing up as much as you've just learned a new way to not do something.
Like I said in Sebastian, you've got a good head on your shoulders. Have someone help you put good information in it that you can use to improve your skill.

[happythoughts 0]

There are two problems.

One is going low.
The second is what to do when you get there.

There are certain mechanical solutions.
I once jumped with a guy we called "Big Pat".
6'5" and something like 320 lbs.
His suit remedies were extreme because of his size.
He didn't do a lot of lateral movement, but he could
stay in a slot.

So, one of the best immediate solutions is to talk
to Tony about suit changes.
- swoop cords
- polycotton fabric
- puffy sleeves

You know Scotty B. I did a lot of RW jumps with him
in his early days. Good suits make a difference.
He is a source of info.

I do a lot of different jumps, so I have swoop cords
and a set of pull-on puffy cotton sleeves.
I weigh 200 and came out 18th on a 22-way last
weekend.

You suit will allow you to fly in the middle of your
range. You don't want to struggle all the time.

My second suggestion is to go over to the tunnel
with Sally and work on getting back up.
I did that and it worked wonders.

You don't want to worry about fallrate all the time or
it will ruin some of the fun.

[davelepka 4]

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but am a fat fuck with a natural arch.

Who are you jumping with? A guy with your description will have a natural rnage of speeds you can fly, and you need to be jumping with folks who have a similar range. It doesn't have to be indentical, but they should be close. I know everyone likes to jump with the petite 105 lb. hottie on the DZ, but sadly that might not be for you.

Also, maybe look into some one-on-one coaching. See if you can recruit an AFF I to do some slow fall-rate practice. You could probably do this with anyone, but an AFF I will have the most expereince with matching fall rates, and will be able to teach you both in freefall and during the debrief better than just 'some dude'.

Beyond that, maybe get a wing sewn into your armpit. A small wing will go a long way toward helping your fall rate, and will just make things more fun since you won't be worried about your fall rate. Some folks will say that it's 'cheating' or that it's a 'crutch', but you'll notice that folks that say that are generally not ones that share your natural fall rate.

If anyone gives you any shit about your jumpsuit, let them know you'll be happy to wear any jumpsuit they want, as long as they are paying for your jumps.

Edit - I just read your profile, and I second the idea of the tunnel. That would be a great use of a tunnel, and in an afternoon you could get your slow-fall and recovery techniques ironed out.

Even once that is done, still look into a little wing. Even if you can fall slow, you don't want to have to. It's great for recovery, or the odd dive where the fall rate is unusually low, but for the most part you want to be in the middle of your fall rate for most dives.

[popsjumper 2]

What this young jumper learned in the tunnel (can't say enough about tunnel time) from a major tunnel rat...

It worked extremely well for me and everyone I have passed this info down to has come back saying that it works much better than the "hug the beach ball" that we normally teach young jumpers.

First, I assume you are flying booties.
Second, I assume you already know to keep you head down (key point).
Third, I assume you know to turn 90 degrees from the formation while trying to recover.

I call it the "superman" and here's how it works:
-Arms straight out in front of you like Superman.
-Legs straight out all the way (key point)
-Toes turned out with heels together.
-De-arch (like helping the proctologist as mentioned above)

Arms out - counteracts the legs to help prevent the forward movement.
Head down between your arms - adds that much more surface area and helps "cup" the air and helps with the de-arch.
Legs all the way out - gets your lower legs working for you.
Toes out - puts those booties to work for you by putting that much more fabric into the air.
De-arch - is self-explanatory.

Again, this is what works best for me. Feel free to try it if you like. There's more than one way to skin a cat. As mentioned earlier, a proper jumpsuit goes a long way, too.


Oh, one more thing...
Do try to be less critical of yourself. ..it takes some of the fun out of skydiving. Lighten up a little. You're not in the boat alone...most all of us have had this problem at one time or another...enjoy the learning process.

Besides, think of all the comedy relief you are providing the others in the formation.


True story:
There was a time when I went about 50 jumps and never made the formation. Looking up at it was away of life for me.

Fortunately, the guys stuck with me and kept taking me out. It soon got to the point of them taking me on an 8-way and then dirt-diving a 7-way leaving a slot outside for me to take just in case I accidently made it in.

Once I got my act together, then we started dirt-diving 8-ways.

Keep at it, man...it'll come.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[chuckakers 425]

Step 1: Diet

Step 2: road trip to a wind tunnel

Step 3: long diver on a 20-way

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[BIGUN 1,300]

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3282559;search_string=mantis;#3282559

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[AggieDave 6]

Dress for success and get good coaching. I'm a fat f*** and I have been able to do some really enjoyable RW, from 2-ways to 50+ ways.

There are really good techniques that will help you a lot and that's something a good RW coach can teach you. Pick a coach that isn't 5'11" and 150lbs, find one that's a little bigger.

The body positions alone and jumpsuits alone won't be the magic genie in the bottle. There are other things you have to consider. Such as with a 4-way, you don't just have to keep level with the others, but right before you release grips to move, you need to pop a little (not enough to get into someone's burble). A lot of people slow down when they release and move, anticipate that.

Its things like that which will keep you from getting low. Once you have gone low, you have lost the battle.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[GLIDEANGLE 1]

Alternate plan... celebrate your speed:

Anvil Brothers

The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others!

[SARLDO 0]

Tuna - Wow, I could have written this post myself. I have found that when i'm jumping with the gang at Z-hills, the only way I stay with the base is to be part of it. I know my suit is much to blame as it's slick and tight (I gained a few pounds since buying it) but, i'm waiting on a new one with swoop cords and some wing . Uncle sam is giving me a kickback this year so tunnel time is in my near future also. Until then, meet me at the DZ (i'll be there Sunday) and we can do some jumps together... just try to keep up OK?

"Always do right. This will gratify some people and astonish the rest" ~Samuel Clemens

MB#4300
Dudeist Skydiver #68

[rehmwa 2]

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Such as with a 4-way, you don't just have to keep level with the others, but right before you release grips to move, you need to pop a little (not enough to get into someone's burble). A lot of people slow down when they release and move, anticipate that.

1 - 4-way - stay level is the right thing
2 - "popping" - I hate that, if everyone does it (big guys and instructors are the worst offenders) then the formation slows down the entire dive and then people start doing it worse. People need to keep their speed up, not sacrifice the dive at the expense of the others. If you don't trust your teammates, then you need a new team - popping is a result of distrust
3 - "a lot of people slow down" see comment #2



To the OP - go to the RW forum and do a search on fall rate - tons of good advice - try to learn without too much expectation of the suit fixing all your problems - your body has a lot of range once you learn to fly it. It take practice and good technique - I'm a fan of the long flat thing you'd learn in a good mantis tunnel camp - I hate the beach ball concept, lots of flaws in that.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

2 - "popping" - I hate that

I can understand why you hate that. I've had to do it for quite a while to keep in some formations.

Quote

People need to keep their speed up, not sacrifice the dive at the expense of the others. If you don't trust your teammates, then you need a new team - popping is a result of distrust

I'm not on a 4-way team and although I enjoy competing, skydiving isn't always a comp. I do, however, enjoy skydiving and a 4-way is apart of fun skydiving. Being a fat boy on a skydive with varying experience saying that others should keep their fall rate up is nice, but in reality us fat boys need to cheat on those jumps.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[happythoughts 0]

+1

That is what Sally taught me in the tunnel and it is
way more effective than the "beach ball" method.

It becomes obvious in the tunnel, where it can be
measured immediately.

[Tuna-Salad 0]

The general consesus is that I visit the tunnel. So with that said I will lay off jumping for a couple weeks and put back some $ for the tunnel.
That should be interesting to see all the stuff I'm doing wrong. HaHa
I'm using a tony swoop suit with big puffy arms and huge legs.. I am going to dive one day in shorts just to get an idea how much the suit slows me down.
I also do not have booties.

It was indeed fun jumping with you DSE until the end like you said. The sliding sideways is working better though.

Millions of my potential children died on your daughters' face last night.

[ryan_d_sucks 0]

Quote

I have a bad habit of getting below formations and not being able to get back up. Looking under arm, hugging beach ball, almost at a de-arch to cup air. I have a baggy suit, but am a fat fuck with a natural arch. Short of getting wings between my sleeves (and quitting the beer) what else can I do?
I recently got an altitrack and of the 4 jumps my avg fall rate is between 129 - 134 mph. I actually got down to 108 saturday (But really don't know how accurate that is)

I can come down to people and for the most part keep a 4 way or something level by adjusting fall rate, but to say the least when I get below a group it makes me feel like shit like I ruined the dive and should be able to get back up the 20 feet or so. I mean with 100+ jumps it looks bad on me to not be able to complete a 4 way because we undocked and I got below the formation. I don't have "Mad skills" but I can keep up with almost anyone I have jumped with recently.. until I get low.

We should jump together.

[BUBLHED 0]

I call it the "superman" and here's how it works:
-Arms straight out in front of you like Superman.
-Legs straight out all the way (key point)
-Toes turned out with heels together.
-De-arch (like helping the proctologist as mentioned above)

Arms out - counteracts the legs to help prevent the forward movement.
Head down between your arms - adds that much more surface area and helps "cup" the air and helps with the de-arch.
Legs all the way out - gets your lower legs working for you.
Toes out - puts those booties to work for you by putting that much more fabric into the air.
De-arch - is self-explanatory.




This is what I learned in the orlando tunnel with Mike. Even without booties it works wonders! I was able to go up at ease. The biggest thing to me seemed like the better angle part (kinda like the upstroke if you know what I mean) Good Luck This has always been the hardest part for me, try the Superman I'd bet you'll have some success.

ATTACK LIFE ! IT'S GOING TO KILL YOU ANYWAY!!!!

[stitch 0]

Quote

I also do not have booties.

Call Tony suits and ask how much to add "Mega XL vented booties" to the suit. They'll usually make modifications to one of their suits w/o a problem. Those will help a lot. You have the right suit for a big boy. It's the same suit Tony recommended to me himself. I'm 240 out the door.

Also like someone else said, experiment with different body positions. If you feel yourself going low, drop your hips. You don't always have to be arched. If somebody says something to you about flying with your hips down. Tell'em to fuck off.

"No cookies for you"- GFD
"I don't think I like the sound of that" ~ MB65
Don't be a "Racer Hater"

[CygnusX-1 43]

One thing to keep in mind is that SDU is offering FREE coaching on Thurs nights at Sky Venture Orlando.

[stitch 0]

Give up while you're ahead. You're too big for RW. Freefall is overated.


DO CRW !!

"No cookies for you"- GFD
"I don't think I like the sound of that" ~ MB65
Don't be a "Racer Hater"

[Tuna-Salad 0]

Yea..... We are going to have real problems when I try to start free flying. I will be leaving a trail of smoke and fire much like the space shuttle during entry into the atmosphere.
Is bad enough when I have jumped with people who were free flying and I was flat. After looking at the anvil brothers website I am a prime recruit.

Millions of my potential children died on your daughters' face last night.

[LongWayToFall 0]

No worries man, keep up the practice, it will get better. I'm a big fatty as well, and I'm still learning lots about slowing down (and flying while in a slow fly position). It helps allot if you go out as part of the base, for 2 reasons. First, you aren't diving down, and don't have to slam on the brakes and fly past everyone. Second, once the formation builds and slows down a bit, you are already in it, instead of going low. I have found people that are in a similar speed range to myself, and it makes it much easier as well, the extra speed makes flying easier IMO. You would be surprised at the people who have similar fall rates, they might not be big fatties like us. My friend is 5'8" and a medium build, but rock climbs allot and has lots of muscle which makes him denser, we are a perfect match for speed. (I'm 6' and 225lb)

[ishdaddy 0]

Hi there!! I am not a pro and maybe I will never be, but I can tell you that Skydive is like a diet. Let me explain it to you; some diets works for some people but that doesn’t mean that it works for all the people, same thing with Skydive. In other words; what works for me maybe it is the worst for you.

I read all the replies to your comment and all of them are right, but again, probably they don’t work for you.

First of all, you need to no worry about getting low at this point (you only have 100+ jumps). Second, you don’t need to be so hard on yourself, and third, as long as you are safe for you and your team that’s all that matters for now.

Wind Tunnel is very good, but there is not the magic solution for fall rates, that’s for sure. Jumpsuits are good, but once again there isn’t the magic solution and I know that for a fact. I jump with people who are 6’-5” and almost 300lb and sometimes they jump in shorts and T-shirt and can go as slow as 98m/h or as fast as 148m/h, so I know that the miracle it isn’t the wind tunnel or the clothing. The miracle is you and your position in free fall, period, the other things help, but they are not going to make you a bird.

Believe it or not, the best solution, if it is possible, it will be for you to go with some friends to a different DZ for a weekend or so (that will take off the “stress” that you are putting on yourself while jumping over and over in the same place and listening over and over to the same comments). While in the other DZ, listen to other Skydivers and their “tricks”; because normally when you are always in the same DZ “almost” everyone will tell you the same things or they will send you to someone in particular to tall with (remember that not the same tricks works for all of us). Make as many jumps you can during your stay there and practice with your friends your fall rate, then practice with one of your friends or other skydiver one on one and try to copy with the other does and if possible try to have a video of your jumps in other to analyze them after each jump and see what you did “wrong” instead of being hard on your self. I can tell you that I just came from a trip with 7 other skydivers’ friends and one of them had lots of trouble with his fall rate and getting all the time below us, but after some jumping was me who had to “get big” in order to go back up to him. This guy when from falling faster than me being in a sit to being able to maintain his falling rate with me and he is over 40lb heavier than me and 100’s of jumps less than me. He was jumping with us and then with one of the group who is a very experience skydiver one on one and believe me when I say that the trip helps him a lot and most than anything it was because he was in a different DZ than normal he is. Now back home he can stay in the formation with not a problem and with different jumpers.

I hope this works for you.

[dule_savic 1]

First loose weight, as much as possible, at least 10 kg.
Jump with people that know how to fly fast, and not with people flying 4way on their knees.
After a hundred of jumps like this, you will fly with everyone.

[keithbar 1]

read my sig. line. tell people that on the dirt dive. problem solved. your not low they are all floatie bitches

i have on occasion been accused of pulling low . My response. Naw I wasn't low I'm just such a big guy I look closer than I really am .

[BUBLHED 0]

your not low they are all floatie bitches

ATTACK LIFE ! IT'S GOING TO KILL YOU ANYWAY!!!!