USPA Membership Dues& Rating Fees going up?

[mjosparky 4]

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I don't think we should eliminate the GM Program, it provides value.

What value does it provide to the individual member?

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easy to calculate because dropzones are already required to keep these flight logs.

But they are not required to show them to you or USPA.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[billvon 2,991]

>What value does it provide to the individual member?

It provides standards for training programs and ratings, so that you know (for example) that someone who has graduated an AFF program can pull on their own.

It provides a basic set of safety rules that are fairly common from DZ to DZ. (The details often differ, but in general you're not going to find a USPA DZ where people are pulling 100 feet above you while you're packing.)

[chriswelker 0]

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It provides standards for training programs and ratings, so that you know (for example) that someone who has graduated an AFF program can pull on their own.

It provides a basic set of safety rules that are fairly common from DZ to DZ. (The details often differ, but in general you're not going to find a USPA DZ where people are pulling 100 feet above you while you're packing.)

Those things do not have anything to do with the GM program that stuff is all S&T.

All the things you mention are our benefits.

The GM program is pain and simple a TRADE ORGINIZATION within USPA! PIA is a real trade orginization, so let the GM's join the PIA.

Chris

[SStewart 13]

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(The details often differ, but in general you're not going to find a USPA DZ where people are pulling 100 feet above you while you're packing.)

You won't find that at non-USPA dropzones either.

Onward and Upward!

[billvon 2,991]

>Those things do not have anything to do with the GM program . . .

GM's agree to follow USPA BSR's and training standards. Non-GM DZ's do not. There is nothing wrong with a non-USPA DZ allowing people to pull at 100 feet, or allowing someone with 2 jumps to do a wingsuit jump.

>PIA is a real trade orginization, so let the GM's join the PIA.

That's fine. PIA would be great for maintaining gear standards.

[chriswelker 0]

GM's agree to follow USPA BSR's and training standards. Non-GM DZ's do not. There is nothing wrong with a non-USPA DZ allowing people to pull at 100 feet, or allowing someone with 2 jumps to do a wingsuit jump.

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I Have have witnessed more F Uped stuff at GM's DZ's than anywhere else. BTW I used to jump at a non GM DZ where the training and safety standards were much better than most if not all of the GM Dz's.

Your statements don't hold much water with me.

There is a whole lot wrong with letting people pull at 100 feet and someone with 2 jumps do a wingsuit jump. As a matter of fact it is gross negligence.

Just because your DZ is a GM DZ it doesn't make it safe to jump at.

Chris

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[bunge 0]

glad i went life 2 years ago before that went up again too!

BUNGE

I don't hate them, I just like us better.

[billvon 2,991]

>I Have have witnessed more F Uped stuff at GM's DZ's than anywhere else.

I agree that any dropzone can do stupid shit. It is my experience that GM DZ's do stupid shit less often than non-GM DZ's. There are always exceptions; YMMV.

>Just because your DZ is a GM DZ it doesn't make it safe to jump at.

I agree. It merely makes it more likely, in my experience.

[NickDG 23]

>>The numbers are as follows
Here's what we do . . .

We float all of USPA's expenses until the very end of 2009. They we shut the doors and declare the organization defunct.

Then we divvie up the $4,066,000 they were going to pay out 36,000 ways.

That will be $116,171 and change for each of us . . .

Then we sell off the property, buildings, and equipment we own (hey, USPA is us, right?) and take those monies (X-millions) and buy ourselves a young Congressman to push our agenda in Washington for the next forty years.

Case Closed + Problem Solved . . .

Can we get Lawrocket started on the paperwork right away?

NickD

[SStewart 13]

So if we don't subsidise the GM program with individual members dues then jumpers will start pulling at 100 feet and people with 2 jumps will start flying wingsuits?

Wow! (slaps self on forehead) Then by all means lets raise the dues cuz we don't want that to happen!

Onward and Upward!

[peek 21]

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GM's agree to follow USPA BSR's and training standards. Non-GM DZ's do not.

Let's be careful shall we? In case someone takes the word of someone they hear on dropzone.com. We should add that USPA individual members volunteer to follow the BSR's on every jump they make, including students/instruction standards. Only if neither a dropzone nor it's jumpers are USPA members can they "do anything they want", (as far as USPA "rules"). (I am not suggesting that this is good or bad for USPA to have that much control over skydivers.)

[billvon 2,991]

>So if we don't subsidise the GM program with individual members dues
>then jumpers will start pulling at 100 feet and people with 2 jumps will start
>flying wingsuits?

I didn't say that. I just said that if they did that at non-USPA DZ's, they are following the letter of the law.

[diablopilot 2]

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>So if we don't subsidise the GM program with individual members dues
>then jumpers will start pulling at 100 feet and people with 2 jumps will start
>flying wingsuits?

I didn't say that. I just said that if they did that at non-USPA DZ's, they are following the letter of the law.

Not if they are USPA members. Members pledge to uphold the BSR's as well.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[billvon 2,991]

>Not if they are USPA members. Members pledge to uphold the BSR's as well.

Agreed. But since non-USPA drop zones are especially attractive to non-USPA jumpers (since they can jump there with no hassles) I was speaking to them.

[stratostar 5]

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We should add that USPA individual members volunteer to follow the BSR's on every jump they make,

Yea right.....@ a non GM don't hold your breath, I can think of one former GM dz now baned for life who used to use (as a GM) anyone the owner deemed good enough to do Lv. 1 AFF's and even a tandem or two, those acting as I's were USPA members. You think just because USPA kick the GM out for life those same indivdual members started to follow the BSR's.

I highly doubt it and in fact there is a fair amount of documentation to show they don't and as SOP USPA don't do dick to them! Hell you can even be a USPA RD S&TA, tandem IE AFF IE S&L IE and get busted all you get is a limp wristed finger slap and walk away with your S&TA still valid.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[skydivr 0]

I won't like it, but realize that we must continue this organization. A price increase will not keep me from renewing my membership.

Keith Abner
D-17590

"Those who do, can't explain; those who don't, can't understand"

[Krip 2]

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>Not if they are USPA members. Members pledge to uphold the BSR's as well.

Agreed. But since non-USPA drop zones are especially attractive to non-USPA jumpers (since they can jump there with no hassles) I was speaking to them.

Hi Bill

I'm reading lots of doom and gloom about the safety record/practices at the non USPA DZ's.

Can you back up what your saying with staticical facts?. Without naming specific DZ's or incidents how many US fatalities in the last year occured at non GMDZ's?

R.I.P.

[chriswelker 0]

If the programs like Competition, Group Membership, and Communications don't make money then they don't make sense.

Let the people that want comp. around pay for it. I personally don't give a crap about comp., because I don't compete. Same thing goes for the GM program.

Parachutists could be cut down to to six issues or just make the thing optional.

FYI, for those skydivers that own homes and carry home owners insurance, you might already have personal liability insurance included in your home owners insurance policy.

If it wasn't for the fact that I am a rated instructor I would drop my USPA membership because I don't need it to skydive and I do have liability insurance to cover any mishap.

Bottom line, USPA is pricing themselves out of the game.

Did anyone check out Gearing Up in Parachutists this month? It's no wonder the USPA is BROKE!

Mr. Scott says USPA membership ended up at 31,534, our highest years-end number since '04. We added 5570 new members in '08.If my math is correct that means at some point in the year our membership was only 25,964. I am wondering if Mr. Scott went to the ENRON school of accounting.Mr. Scott does not mention how many members did not renew their memberships.Sounds like we have a revolving door with the membership numbers.What was the net increase? if anyone knows how many members we had at the end of '07 then we shall know the exact number.That's how you judge performance.

Chris

[tombuch 0]

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FYI, for those skydivers that own homes and carry home owners insurance, you might already have personal liability insurance included in your home owners insurance policy.

If it wasn't for the fact that I am a rated instructor I would drop my USPA membership because I don't need it to skydive and I do have liability insurance to cover any mishap.

Many drop zones operate on public airports that require the business to follow USPA BSR's and to maintain third party liability insurance. Many privately owned airports also require USPA group membership or USPA third party insurance. Most of these businesses would not be able to operate without that insurance, and confirming the coverage of every individual jumper through homeowner policies would be unmanageable.

While your DZ may choose not to be a group member or to require individual membership for insurance, many drop zones do not have this option. The loss of USPA oversight and insurance would devastate the industry, and directly impact just about every skydiver in this country.

Likewise, the USPA commitment to BSR's, instructional programs, and other safety initiatives has allowed many of our states to step out of regulating the sport, and others have easily yielded to the regulations of the national organization. The loss of USPA oversight at the federal level would surely result in the increase of regulation at the state level. I doubt any of us want a 50 state patchwork of regulations.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[Mr17Hz 1]

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>Not if they are USPA members. Members pledge to uphold the BSR's as well.

Agreed. But since non-USPA drop zones are especially attractive to non-USPA jumpers (since they can jump there with no hassles) I was speaking to them.

Hi Bill

I'm reading lots of doom and gloom about the safety record/practices at the non USPA DZ's.

Can you back up what your saying with staticical facts?. Without naming specific DZ's or incidents how many US fatalities in the last year occured at non GMDZ's?

R.I.P.

This statistic would provide no relevance unless it was put into proportion against "Jumps made at USPA Dropzones" verse "Jumps made at non USPA Dropzones".

Because the majority of jumps take place at large dropzones and the majority of large dropzones are USPA members, it would be expected that the number of fatalities at USPA dropzones would exceed those at non-USPA dropzones.

Matt Christenson

mattchristenson@realskydiving.com
http://www.RealDropzone.com - A new breed of dropzone manifest software.

[billvon 2,991]

>If the programs like Competition, Group Membership, and Communications
>don't make money then they don't make sense.

To me, USPA is a service organization. I rate them not on how much money they make but on how much they support skydiving. The competition program helps both me and other skydivers who want to compete or who are working towards competing. Group membership helps keep drop zones open and helps keep uniformity in student training programs and BSR's. That is their value. It's not whether they are good investment vehicles or not.

Indeed, if they make money year after year they're doing it wrong.

[chriswelker 0]

To me, USPA is a service organization. I rate them not on how much money they make but on how much they support skydiving. The competition program helps both me and other skydivers who want to compete or who are working towards competing. Group membership helps keep drop zones open and helps keep uniformity in student training programs and BSR's. That is their value. It's not whether they are good investment vehicles or not.

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BROKE is BROKE. So if something keeps loosing money year after year your o. k. with that? If you are a service organization you have to make a profit or at least not loose your ass so you can continue to serve your customers.

Chris

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[billvon 2,991]

>So if something keeps loosing money year after year your o. k. with that?

Uh, yes. They SHOULD lose money. I expect them to take my money and spend it on safety improvements, student training and competition planning. If I want a good investment that makes me money I'll buy into a mutual fund.

[Jumpdude 0]

First, I'll say that I'm not cross posting by pointing this out and with respect for keeping the thread on subject, I'm not going to get this into a debate that can be handled in the appropriate thread.

The economy, the cost , rate increase, and the services USPA does or does not render is not our reason for not becoming a USPA DZ. I think USPA is or can be a great organization. Our reason for NOT joining USPA as a Group Member is the fact that sLyride is a member and as I understand it, some of their supporters are on the BOD and/or ND. We choose to remain a non USPA DZ to minimize our affiliation with anyone who accepts sLyride's business practices.
We will be more than glad to join as a group member when USPA has absolutely ZERO affiliation with sLyride, AND none of their associates are on the BOD/ND or any other level of the management structure.

Refuse to Lose!!!
Failure is NOT an option!
1800skyrideripoff.com
Nashvilleskydiving.org

[chriswelker 0]

Uh, yes. They SHOULD lose money. I expect them to take my money and spend it on safety improvements, student training and competition planning. If I want a good investment that makes me money I'll buy into a mutual fund.

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Bill if you spend more than you take in where does the difference come from.?

I have not mentioned anthing about investing or mutual funds so please try your best to stay on topic. You should be setting a better example as a mod.

Chris

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