PhreeZone 20
Recommended Posts
jakee 1,489
QuoteQuoteQuoteNo it isn't you still have no time for emergency procedures.
What part do you not understand about it actually being safe when done properly by trained professionals?
The part about no room for error. If you ever get a chance to talk to or listen to a lecture on stunts from BJ Worth or Tom Sanders or Jake Brake they will drive home that the trained professional always has room for error built in. A professional stunt is engineered to look dangerous, not be dangerous.
So you're saying that no BASE jump has a margin for error?
Do you want to have an ideagasm?
jakee 1,489
QuoteWhere there was one fatality in 2008 that had conditions that nearly mirrored the situation that these jumpers were asking for (Aircraft exit in a wingsuit with a properly packed BASE rig that the jumper had experience on) there is no reason the USPA should grant these people the signatures needed to use our insurance for their demos.
Right, and how many fatalities were there, in demo's and otherwise, in 2008 that mirror the conditions in which demo's are done now?
Skydiving has fatalities, ban all demo's!
Do you want to have an ideagasm?
QuoteQuoteWhere there was one fatality in 2008 that had conditions that nearly mirrored the situation that these jumpers were asking for (Aircraft exit in a wingsuit with a properly packed BASE rig that the jumper had experience on) there is no reason the USPA should grant these people the signatures needed to use our insurance for their demos.
Right, and how many fatalities were there, in demo's and otherwise, in 2008 that mirror the conditions in which demo's are done now?
Skydiving has fatalities, ban all demo's!
Beats me...but obviously not a high enough number in relation to the total number of demos done to merit 1/2 a dozen different discussions on this website questioning the overall safety or the 'impact' it has of the organization.
~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~
ozzy13 0
QuoteWhere there was one fatality in 2008 that had conditions that nearly mirrored the situation that these jumpers were asking for (Aircraft exit in a wingsuit with a properly packed BASE rig that the jumper had experience on) there is no reason the USPA should grant these people the signatures needed to use our insurance for their demos.
I agree 100%
Never give the gates up and always trust your rears!
Some guy in England (i believe) hooked himself in at a demo once. Doesnt mean ban all demo's.
1338
People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.
Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.
People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.
Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.
jakee 1,489
QuoteBeats me...but obviously not a high enough number in relation to the total number of demos done to merit 1/2 a dozen different discussions on this website questioning the overall safety or the 'impact' it has of the organization.
Actually, it's not obvious at all. People will overlook all manner of things that are in line with the accepted status quo. The only reason that this has spawned so many discussions is because it is different, not because it is neccesarily a much greater risk.
Do you want to have an ideagasm?
ozzy13 0
QuoteSome guy in England (i believe) hooked himself in at a demo once. Doesn'T mean ban all demo's.
First is your statement/ question a fact or is it hypothetical? Because I believe it doesn't help anyone.
If you/ I do a demo it should be done within the BSR's. We get a bad enough press from reporters that don't know there ass from their elbow when it comes to skydiving.
As far a USPA sticking there neck out for a corporate sponsor like Red Bull. Why should they? How will them deploying at 400ft help our sport.
The fact that they tried to run for BOD's because they were told NO tells me a lot about them. And to use Education as there mission statement is hilarious. One or two of them responded on this site saying they wanted change but said nothing about how they were going to do that.
Why anyone is even talking about this again baffles me. Its been talked about for months and they were rejected. Have Red bull put up the money for the insurance and leave MY/YOUR USPA alone.
This jump would do nothing to help USPA and could do everything to hurt it
Never give the gates up and always trust your rears!
QuoteQuoteBeats me...but obviously not a high enough number in relation to the total number of demos done to merit 1/2 a dozen different discussions on this website questioning the overall safety or the 'impact' it has of the organization.
Actually, it's not obvious at all. People will overlook all manner of things that are in line with the accepted status quo. The only reason that this has spawned so many discussions is because it is different, not because it is neccesarily a much greater risk.
I can only speak from experience, and it's obvious to me.
I have over 1000 paid demos and have never been hurt or ever hurt anyone else...when I meet the guy with 1000 400' demos that can say the same, maybe I'll change my opinion.
~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~
Its a fact, i remember reading about it.
As i said though i dont actually think its a good thing for the sport. Its been done thousands of times already but i think it should be left to the valleys.
As a BASE jumper i like to defend the equipment we use and the whole "but you dont have a reserve" argument annoys me when we take every precaution to stop mals.
As i said though i dont actually think its a good thing for the sport. Its been done thousands of times already but i think it should be left to the valleys.
As a BASE jumper i like to defend the equipment we use and the whole "but you dont have a reserve" argument annoys me when we take every precaution to stop mals.
1338
People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.
Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.
People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.
Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.
ozzy13 0
QuoteIts a fact, i remember reading about it.
As i said though i dont actually think its a good thing for the sport. Its been done thousands of times already but i think it should be left to the valleys.
As a BASE jumper i like to defend the equipment we use and the whole "but you dont have a reserve" argument annoys me when we take every precaution to stop mals.
Hey I'm all for Base jumping. What they requested was not a base jump. That's why they had to ask USPA and that's why for one of many reasons I'M sure USPA said NO!!!
Never give the gates up and always trust your rears!
Tom-aye-to Tom-ah-to
I personlly think if you are wearing BASE gear and planning on basement pulling its more a BASE jump than a skydive.
Of course people will disagree but thats my thoughts.
I personlly think if you are wearing BASE gear and planning on basement pulling its more a BASE jump than a skydive.
Of course people will disagree but thats my thoughts.
1338
People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.
Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.
People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.
Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.
jakee 1,489
QuoteI have over 1000 paid demos and have never been hurt or ever hurt anyone else...when I meet the guy with 1000 400' demos that can say the same, maybe I'll change my opinion.
Firstly, you're a single data point. How many other people have been hurt or killed doing demo jumps in the time that you've been doing them?
Secondly, how much of that is dumb luck? I know you've posted some pretty fucking sketchy (and immensely informative/ entertaining) stories in history and trivia!
Thirdly, it should be obvious that you'll never be able to meet that person until many years after such demos are made legal!
Do you want to have an ideagasm?
...how much of that is dumb luck?
Yup...like I said, I can only speak from my experience...
I know just how much luck can play a factor in things working out when ya DON'T push the limits.
Just curious~
How many 400' opening, wing-suit demos, exiting at 2000', have you done, seen, heard about?
Just wondering about the 'data' regarding your claim they're safe...
~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~
Yup...like I said, I can only speak from my experience...
I know just how much luck can play a factor in things working out when ya DON'T push the limits.
Just curious~
How many 400' opening, wing-suit demos, exiting at 2000', have you done, seen, heard about?
Just wondering about the 'data' regarding your claim they're safe...
~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~
jakee 1,489
QuoteHow many 400' opening, wing-suit demos, exiting at 2000', have you done, seen, heard about?
Don't know about exact opening heights, but I know of a few BASE rig wingsuit demos with similar profiles. (That were done by people I would consider to be extremely skilled and experienced in that area)
QuoteJust wondering about the 'data' regarding your claim they're safe
I don't think I did claim that they're safe. I'm questioning claims that they're too dangerous, and I definitely disagree with some of the reasons that people are saying they would be dangerous.
Do you want to have an ideagasm?
QuoteQuoteHow many 400' opening, wing-suit demos, exiting at 2000', have you done, seen, heard about?
Don't know about exact opening heights, but I know of a few BASE rig wingsuit demos with similar profiles. (That were done by people I would consider to be extremely skilled and experienced in that area)QuoteJust wondering about the 'data' regarding your claim they're safe
I don't think I did claim that they're safe. I'm questioning claims that they're too dangerous, and I definitely disagree with some of the reasons that people are saying they would be dangerous.
Your right...about the safe thing, that's what I get when beer & football combine with the computer, sorry 'bout that.
But we will have to agree to disagree on the not too dangerous thing...
A while back a couple of demo jumpers on various teams & I were discussing just how many demo jumps are made in the U.S. each year.
Since a more than fair share are not 'sanctioned' as far as insured etc. the numbers were a guesstimate, but we kind of agreed on something in the neighborhood of 1200.
(that's not 'demos' that's demo jumps, most teams have four or more jumpers per event, often several jumps during the event.)
When you consider the number of demo jumps over the past 5 years and the fatality rate...as compared to the number of 400' openings and that fatality rate, yeah...I think it's too dangerous.
Can it be done?
Sure that's been proven, is having the USPA go to bat to make it legal a good idea?
...nope!
~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~
Scrumpot 1
There is no "Tom-aye-to vs. Tom-ah-to" about it.
In order to be considered a BASE jump, you must exit from a FIXED exit point. Exiting out of an aircraft, ANY aircraft is a skydive. Period.
coitus non circum - Moab Stone
QuoteQuoteQuoteNo it isn't you still have no time for emergency procedures.
What part do you not understand about it actually being safe when done properly by trained professionals?
The part about no room for error. If you ever get a chance to talk to or listen to a lecture on stunts from BJ Worth or Tom Sanders or Jake Brake they will drive home that the trained professional always has room for error built in. A professional stunt is engineered to look dangerous, not be dangerous.
By the way, I am a trained professional.
Bingo.
The worlds best will not be able to get a belly mount reserve deployed on a 400 foot AGL opening in a wingsuit if they experience a PC in tow. Period.
And that is precisely what the original request was.
No one on the USPA BOD is stopping anyone from doing said stunt, they simply have said collectively that they and the USPA will not endorse it.
It's one FAA FSDO that has put the requirement on the requestee's to get USPA approval. And FAA HQ has said "no way, no how."
----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.
Jumpah 0
QuoteWhere there was one fatality in 2008 that had conditions that nearly mirrored the situation that these jumpers were asking for (Aircraft exit in a wingsuit with a properly packed BASE rig that the jumper had experience on) there is no reason the USPA should grant these people the signatures needed to use our insurance for their demos.
Completely agree!
Quote
The worlds best will not be able to get a belly mount reserve deployed on a 400 foot AGL opening in a wingsuit if they experience a PC in tow. Period.
So what.
The world's greatest aerobatic pilot with an FAA waiver to perform maneuvers down to 0 altitude isn't going to get out if he clips an obstacle or simply breaks the plane (Sean Tucker had to bail out after breaking a linkage in his Pitts) when exercising those privledges.
We accept much higher risks in that environment provided that an airshow line is in place, and shouldn't be differentiating between the different sorts of pilots.
jakee 1,489
QuoteBut we will have to agree to disagree on the not too dangerous thing...
That's fair enough, hell, I might feel differently if I had a dog in this fight.
I just think that some of the attitudes on the thread, that it's death on a stick if you even attempt it, are a bit reactionary.
Do you want to have an ideagasm?
QuoteQuote
The worlds best will not be able to get a belly mount reserve deployed on a 400 foot AGL opening in a wingsuit if they experience a PC in tow. Period.
So what.
The world's greatest aerobatic pilot with an FAA waiver to perform maneuvers down to 0 altitude isn't going to get out if he clips an obstacle or simply breaks the plane (Sean Tucker had to bail out after breaking a linkage in his Pitts) when exercising those privileges.
We accept much higher risks in that environment provided that an airshow line is in place, and shouldn't be differentiating between the different sorts of pilots.
Actually Sean D. Tucker was practicing his routine away from any show-line and at a much higher altitude than he performs at...no performance waiver was in effect when he bailed out.
The 'Worlds Greatest' airshow pilot, (Jimmy Franklin) WAS killed
doing a stunt that was not regularly practiced, performed, or recognized by most airshow performers as 'safe'.
~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~
ozzy13 0
QuoteQuote
The worlds best will not be able to get a belly mount reserve deployed on a 400 foot AGL opening in a wingsuit if they experience a PC in tow. Period.
So what.
The world's greatest aerobatic pilot with an FAA waiver to perform maneuvers down to 0 altitude isn't going to get out if he clips an obstacle or simply breaks the plane (Sean Tucker had to bail out after breaking a linkage in his Pitts) when exercising those privledges.
We accept much higher risks in that environment provided that an airshow line is in place, and shouldn't be differentiating between the different sorts of pilots.
You are talking apples and oranges if you ask me. Stunts at air show with planes HAS nothing to do parachuting and USPA!!!!
Never give the gates up and always trust your rears!
QuoteQuote
The worlds best will not be able to get a belly mount reserve deployed on a 400 foot AGL opening in a wingsuit if they experience a PC in tow. Period.
So what.
The world's greatest aerobatic pilot with an FAA waiver to perform maneuvers down to 0 altitude isn't going to get out if he clips an obstacle or simply breaks the plane (Sean Tucker had to bail out after breaking a linkage in his Pitts) when exercising those privledges.
We accept much higher risks in that environment provided that an airshow line is in place, and shouldn't be differentiating between the different sorts of pilots.
The worlds greatest acrobatic pilot is not asking the USPA to endorse his/her act. He/she convinced the FAA to give them permission.
"So what" is that I don't want the organization that I pay $80+ dollars a year to expose it's self to the liability of such a stunt. There will be NO benefit to the USPA, or it's members. I like the benefits I receive with my membership. This stunt has a higher chance of going horribly wrong, and if so a lawyer would have a field day with it as it is obviously outside of the "norm". Such a lawsuit would endanger the existence of the USPA and the benefits I enjoy as a member.
If the requestee's can find a way to pull off the stunt, more power to them. Convincing the FAA to allow it is what they need to do.
----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.
And tomorrow is a mystery
Parachutemanuals.com
Share this post
Link to post
Share on other sites