400 foot "dummies"

[DSE 5]

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Regardless of leaving a rock or an aircraft, when flying a wingsuit and pulling at 400ft you are in the same territory.

There generally aren't massive quantities of spectators packed into a limited area beneath BASE wingsuiters.
The low openings aren't so much an issue per se (in my mind), It's the low openings above spectators.

[ozzy13 0]

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I think the question USPA needs to ask is what's in it for them. We are talking about a commercial enterprise who wants to change the rules for their show. If USPA acquiesces will skydiving in the US benefit? We know there is an increased chance of bad publicity, but if that doesn't happen will the sport get a positive hit. Personally I don't think so. The industry has done well over the last twenty years or so by demonstrating skydiving as an exciting, yet reasonably safe activity. Those who want to push the image of it being a crazy, death defying act for ultra cool heroes are free to do so, but should not have USPA sanction. JMHO

I just want to add to this.

If Red bull guys want to do this go ahead. I dont think anyone is saying they dont have the skills.

Just because its been done does not mean its smart.

My understanding of this situation is that USPA does not what to be part off it. There are way to many risks.They would have to insure the event because they sanction it. Could you Imagine the law suits that could occur if something went wrong. This would affect USPA as a whole.

Nobody is saying they cant do it. They are just saying they don't want to be apart of it. Their is a difference. I agree with USPA's decision on this.

As one of the BOD's said in the other threads about this. If they want to do it so bad, Quit USPA for a day. Go do the jump and then Join USPA again. Why put the whole community at risk for a corporate sponsor!!!

My 2 cents

Never give the gates up and always trust your rears!

[ozzy13 0]

Well that statment is not true. With todays tectnoligy you can get a reseve over your head from 400 ft

In the first one two base jumper cut away from 100ft and land on reserves. If they can do it from a 100ft . Your statement is CLEARLY false

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSd_EbVUNAg

And here is a guy under a base canopy with a super low pull. Watch how fast it opens.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwDdTvUncwM&feature=related

Again I DONT agree with the demo. But to say what you are saying is just not true!!!

Never give the gates up and always trust your rears!

[mjosparky 4]

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Also you may not be thinking of all the other factors involved.

Can you site other factors involved that would fall within the scope of USPA’s fuction and mission statement.

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“The purpose of USPA is three-fold: to promote safe skydiving through training, licensing, and instructor qualification programs; to ensure skydiving’s rightful place on airports and in the airspace system, and to promote competition and record-setting programs.”

I think Andrewwhyte stated it well.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[likestojump 3]

I'd be an idiot to disagree with what Andrew said. The problem is that your statement was quite personal and that was what I addressed.

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"Do you really think that you can exit at 2,000 feet and consistently deploy at 400 feet? You are a better man than I am.

I think you might be confusing BASE with skydiving. You do know that they are different? "

[jakee 1,489]

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I'm not being narrow-minded. Pitching a pilot chute at 400 feet doesn't leave enough time to use a reserve if needed, regardless of how the main was packed or what kind of container it's put in. Simply adding a reserve to a rig to get it legal doesn't make 400 foot openings any safer

You're still seeing what you want to see. No one said the reserve would make it safer, the fact that it's a BASE rig makes it safer.

I see the entire situation. My point isn't that a base rig is or is not safer than a skydiving rig. My point is that no matter what kind of rig you use, you don't have time to get a reserve out if you begin a main deployment at 400 feet.

And no-one suggested you would. No-one even so much as hinted that having a reserve would be useful, beyond the fact that you need one to get a rig TSO'd.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Scrumpot 1]

These guys aren't cargo Sparky, far from it.

Although trust me, I do "get" your analogy and your point - please, remember too when even just the simple thought, let alone the act of passing a baton in freefall was considered crazy thinking too!

Now, ...back to your-all's regularly scheduled programming.

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[hackish 8]

If 20 years ago sparky dispatched dummies and saw 10% of them go splat. Then 20 years of active work in the industry and knowledge and experience of modern equipment pass and he's still solidly against it then I don't know how relevant a "that was then this is now" comment can really be.

It has been some time since I read over the redbull proposal but I seem to remember that they'd already taken into account not being over spectators. I would just worry what a stunt like that would do to the next 10 years of skydiving if it did go bad.

-Michael

[likestojump 3]

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If 20 years ago sparky dispatched dummies and saw 10% of them go splat. Then 20 years of active work in the industry and knowledge and experience of modern equipment pass and he's still solidly against it then I don't know how relevant a "that was then this is now" comment can really be.

I am not familiar with Sparkies work, so I am merely basing my statements on facts known to me.

What's his credibility in making such a statement ? Does it have any more weight than testing gear that is 20 years underdeveloped as of today ?

BTW, he continuosly demonstrates lack of knowledge of modern BASE gear, which is the gear that RB guys proposed to use for the demo. So much for "knowledge and experience of modern equipment"...

[ozzy13 0]

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modern BASE gear, which is the gear that RB guys proposed to use for the demo.

Well that's probably one of the problems USPA had with the demo...

No matter how you look at it , Its still a skydive.

why don't they go rent a crane????

Never give the gates up and always trust your rears!

[Andy_Copland 0]

I think what i have an issue with is sparky is living in the past. He's giving his opinions and talking about 20 years ago. I'd bet hes never actually looked at the gear thats going to be used.

I dont actually think its a good idea myself, not from a safety point of view but i just cant see it doing much for skydiving.

1338

People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.

Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.

[ficus 0]

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Regardless of leaving a rock or an aircraft, when flying a wingsuit and pulling at 400ft you are in the same territory.

There generally aren't massive quantities of spectators packed into a limited area beneath BASE wingsuiters.
The low openings aren't so much an issue per se (in my mind), It's the low openings above spectators.

The low opening stunt these guys wanted to do would be done behind a crowd line, just like any other airshow stunt.

[Jumpah 0]

It seems to me that if Red Bull really wanted this they could go about it and get it classified as a stunt or whatnot and get the approvals that way. They don't want to pay for all that, deal with the FAA, and they certainly, most POSITIVELY do not want to be on the hook if something goes wrong. Better for them if the USPA takes the fall for that.

[yarpos 4]

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If 20 years ago sparky dispatched dummies and saw 10% of them go splat. Then 20 years of active work in the industry and knowledge and experience of modern equipment pass and he's still solidly against it then I don't know how relevant a "that was then this is now" comment can really be.

I am not familiar with Sparkies work, so I am merely basing my statements on facts known to me.

What's his credibility in making such a statement ? Does it have any more weight than testing gear that is 20 years underdeveloped as of today ?

BTW, he continuosly demonstrates lack of knowledge of modern BASE gear, which is the gear that RB guys proposed to use for the demo. So much for "knowledge and experience of modern equipment"...

I beleive what he said was that he spent 20 years testing gear , not that he tested gear 20 years ago. He seems to have plenty of credibility around here and displays in depth gear knowledge and common sense. Your comments about BASE gear may be relevant but I have no clue. Unless I am mixing indentities up I think the spark-ster owned up to perpetrating a skydive with a very similar profile, so he may have something to bring to the discussion.

regards, Steve
the older I get...the better I was

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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It seems to me that if Red Bull really wanted this they could go about it and get it classified as a stunt or whatnot and get the approvals that way. They don't want to pay for all that, deal with the FAA, and they certainly, most POSITIVELY do not want to be on the hook if something goes wrong. Better for them if the USPA takes the fall for that.

Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding!

[mjosparky 4]

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The problem is that your statement was quite personal and that was what I addressed.

The post was not directed to you so don’t get you shorts in a knot. Seems like your feathers are still ruffled over your “selling gear” thread.

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BTW, he continuously demonstrates lack of knowledge of modern BASE gear, which is the gear that RB guys proposed to use for the demo. So much for "knowledge and experience of modern equipment"...

Most people in the industry including riggers do not consider BASE gear to be modern skydiving equipment. As for “knowledge” keep in mind there are no experts in this sport. All the experts are dead. Maybe you could enlighten on how the laws of physic and aerodynamics have changed since you started jumping.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[mjosparky 4]

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I'd bet hes never actually looked at the gear thats going to be used.

And you would loose that bet.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Andy_Copland 0]

So what is the gear thats being used? I can only take a guess at what it will be. If you have inside info please share.

1338

People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.

Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.

[likestojump 3]

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The problem is that your statement was quite personal and that was what I addressed.

The post was not directed to you so don’t get you shorts in a knot. Seems like your feathers are still ruffled over your “selling gear” thread.

not at all. By personal I did not mean personal TO ME. I meant that YOU took it personally. In other words to me it sounded like you were not following the thread topic, but rather drifted into "2K exit w. 400ft pull cannot be done consistently". And that was the only thing that I answered. As far as "selling gear"... that has nothing to do with this thread. As you guessed - Irrelevant :)

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BTW, he continuously demonstrates lack of knowledge of modern BASE gear, which is the gear that RB guys proposed to use for the demo. So much for "knowledge and experience of modern equipment"...

Most people in the industry including riggers do not consider BASE gear to be modern skydiving equipment. As for “knowledge” keep in mind there are no experts in this sport. All the experts are dead. Maybe you could enlighten on how the laws of physic and aerodynamics have changed since you started jumping.

Sparky

you are correct. BASE gear is meant to accomplish goals of BASE jumping - clean on-heading deployment, fast, clean and staged nose-first inflation. It is simpler from a stand point of not having any unnecessary bells and whistles, and more complex when compared to packing your regular skydiving main. While it is not built with skydiving in mind, it is taken to terminal every day, including rotations on all axis and WS flight, and skysurfing. The gear is also used for skydiving at times with no adverse effects.

So basically what I am saying is that I, amongst many others believe that BASE gear if configured properly can (and is) used for skydives safely. It will be a much bigger pain in the ass due to the time it takes to pack, thus reserved for specialty stunts by skilled and current professionals. The gear suggested by RB was a modern BASE container with a TSO'd harness with a TSO'd belly reserve and TSOd reserve canopy. Any of the TSOd add-ons do not inhibit any features that the "main" part of the container was built for.

As far as experts in the sports. I am not sure if you mean skydiving or BASE jumping, so I will reserve my answer. However, your wording "all the experts are dead" - suggests that at one time the experts did exist - could you please name a few of the currently diseased ones, and let me know how they perished ?

I have no idea where your "laws of physics or aerodynamics" comes in, but your logic is faulty no matter how you look at the phrase. The laws most certainly HAVE NOT changed. However, our understanding of the laws and our gear knowledge has advanced greatly .

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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So basically what I am saying is that I, amongst many others believe that BASE gear if configured properly can (and is) used for skydives safely. It will be a much bigger pain in the ass due to the time it takes to pack, thus reserved for specialty stunts by skilled and current professionals. The gear suggested by RB was a modern BASE container with a TSO'd harness with a TSO'd belly reserve and TSOd reserve canopy. Any of the TSOd add-ons do not inhibit any features that the "main" part of the container was built for.

It makes no difference whatsoever whether the gear is TSO'd or not if main deployment is at 400 ft. If the highly trained and current professional has a mal he will not have enough altitude do implement emergency procedures.

[Scoop 0]

Do you really think a BASE jumper gives a fuck about emergancy procedures. They are only ticking the boxes for the legal aspect

[likestojump 3]

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So basically what I am saying is that I, amongst many others believe that BASE gear if configured properly can (and is) used for skydives safely. It will be a much bigger pain in the ass due to the time it takes to pack, thus reserved for specialty stunts by skilled and current professionals. The gear suggested by RB was a modern BASE container with a TSO'd harness with a TSO'd belly reserve and TSOd reserve canopy. Any of the TSOd add-ons do not inhibit any features that the "main" part of the container was built for.

It makes no difference whatsoever whether the gear is TSO'd or not if main deployment is at 400 ft. If the highly trained and current professional has a mal he will not have enough altitude do implement emergency procedures.

Andrew, you are taking me out of context.

I cannot argue that deploying at 400ft leaves your safety margins at near nil in case you need to use your reserve.

I was simply rebutting Sparkies statement that BASE gear cannot be used for skydives.

I am sure you will agree that 2K deployment will eliminate all the arguments, including those about the gear used.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

I was bringing the discussion back into the original context.
The argument has been:
-You cannot safely dump at 400 ft on a skydive.
-Sure you can. You just need base gear.
-A base jump is not a skydive.
-But you can do a skydive with base gear, so it's safe.
-No it isn't you still have no time for emergency procedures.
-I wasn't talking about low openings.

[Andy_Copland 0]

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No it isn't you still have no time for emergency procedures.

What part do you not understand about it actually being safe when done properly by trained professionals?

1338

People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.

Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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No it isn't you still have no time for emergency procedures.

What part do you not understand about it actually being safe when done properly by trained professionals?

The part about no room for error. If you ever get a chance to talk to or listen to a lecture on stunts from BJ Worth or Tom Sanders or Jake Brake they will drive home that the trained professional always has room for error built in. A professional stunt is engineered to look dangerous, not be dangerous.

By the way, I am a trained professional.