Collapsing a Perfectly Good Canopy

[Evelyn 0]

I'd heard of people doing it, and thought "no way, if I've got a perfectly good canopy over my head I'm not gonna collapse it". Well...I did Scott Miller's canopy control course last weekend and one of the excercises was to fully stall our canopy to where it collapsed. He didn't just say go out and stall your canopy. He showed us videos of people stalling their canopies, and then letting up on the toggles so it reinflated. He told us exactly what to expect - the end cells would come together and we would feel like we were falling backwards out of a chair. He told us that he had done it hundreds of times with no problems, and that all his students had done it with no problems, and that the worst that could happen is we'd have some line twists if we let up on the toggles unevenly, but he showed us how to avoid that, and we were doing this excercise high enough that we could cut away if necessary. So I did it and was glad I did because I found out that my canopy will not collapse when I'm flying with toggles all the way down, I had to wrap the steering lines around my hands a few times to get my canopy to stall. Now that I know my canopy won't collapse when flying with my toggles all the way down I have a fuller range than I had before. It was a great learning experience and I wanted to share it.

Life is either a daring adventure or nothing ~ Helen Keller

[AggieDave 6]

1, 2, FINISH...

His course lays out a lot of information doesn't it?

I've sat through his basic and advanced course more then once, it was well worth the time and money learning something new everytime. Especially in regards to how to teach students how to fly their canopies.


See any video of a big guy with a green and black canopy getting low in a swoop and late on the toggles then skipping like a rock?

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Evelyn 0]

OMG. I got so much information from his course. We started at 8:30 am. Had lectures, jumped, debriefed, more lectures, more jumps. We didn't finish until almost 8 pm. Sooo much info. I'm gonna keep practicing what I learned and I'm confident I'll be a much better, safer canopy pilot.

Sorry, he didn't show the low swoop, late toggle video, but maybe he shows that in the advanced course

Life is either a daring adventure or nothing ~ Helen Keller

[Scrumpot 1]

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...and that the worst that could happen is we'd have some line twists if we let up on the toggles unevenly...

I am certainly not going to go against anything that Scott either told you directly or instructed you for the canopy control course of your level, and ABSOLUTELY go back to him and ask him (or if he is not available, another senior canopy pilot or coach that you trust) about what I am about to say, but in ALL instances, THAT statement is just not true! And in my opinion this needs to be taken WITHIN the context only (and at the level) that he was teaching you.

I don't know your wing loading, canopy design, etc., etc., but others just reading this, and thinking this for themselves who could be under higher loaded elipticals for instance, need to be aware that there ARE indeed possible greater risks, and/or consequences if this is practiced inappropriately (or without either understanding and instruction).

I have personally witnessed a FATALITY caused by a jumper practicing (for "fun" while celebrating his descent from his 500th jump) the collapsing and re-inflating of his main canopy, when one of those times he either let his toggles up too abruptly, unevenly, or what-have-you, and the collapse & resultant re-inflation became much more VIOLENT than he had anticipated. Lines became entangled with a component of either his rig, a loose shoe lace/his foot or both, and he was unable to cut it away/free himself before spiraling in under that configuration until (again FATAL) impact.

Yes, the lesson learned, that you have apparently learned under CONTROLLED (relatively) circumstances is a good one. But the "casual reader" to this also needs 1st too, to be well advised.

On a lot of today's low-time yet (self perceived) "rapid advancement" jumpers choice of more "radical" and lesser docile canopies becoming more & more prevalent out there, I just don't want anybody taking this post, and that statement in particular as blanket fact.

I am here as 1st hand witness to you that in ALL INSTANCES it is not.

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[pilotdave 0]

FYI: Scott only suggests full stalls for people with non-fully-elliptical canopies. My course only had one person jumping an elliptical and he suggested only doing rear riser stalls or renting another canopy to do toggle stalls.

I'm guessing the incident you're talking about was in 1998... the day of my first jump nearby in MD. The DZO got the phone call soon after sunset.

Dave

[Evelyn 0]

Thanks for clarifying. I was indeed talking about my experience in a controlled situation. I would not advocate anyone trying this on their own, just wanted to let people know what I had done in my canopy control class, and my experience.

Life is either a daring adventure or nothing ~ Helen Keller

[Scrumpot 1]

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I'm guessing the incident you're talking about was in 1998... the day of my first jump nearby in MD. The DZO got the phone call soon after sunset.

Yes Dave, you are correct. That is the incident. I have video of my friend from that jump from just a few days prior upon which the videographer at the time (and BEFORE the fateful jump) put upon it the "don't fear the reaper" soundtrack. It was a sunset load with he & I closing last on an 12-way together ...which was quite a feat considering Aron was primarily a (and truly "avowed" for the day) head-down flier. I still cry to this day when I happen to see that video.

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FYI: Scott only suggests full stalls for people with non-fully-elliptical canopies. My course only had one person jumping an elliptical and he suggested only doing rear riser stalls or renting another canopy to do toggle stalls.

Glad that that is understood, and I just felt that this needed to be also said. Again... if for nothing else, than for the potential "casual reader" who feels he/she can be "self-taught". I certainly did not mean to dampen the initial posters apparent euphoria or exhuberance. My apologies Evelyn if I have in any way done that.

Good on you for taking the course, and having the initiative and consideration to always stive to LEARN!
Blue Skies,
-Grant

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[phoenixlpr 0]

I`ve collapsed mine several times. Ok, it was a 260-300sqft accuracy with spring loaded PC. I was told that I can try whatever I want over 800-1000m.

One of my friend has grabbed a A+B line and pulled in until the leading edge for fun.

These things can be done, but think on what altitude and with what canopy.

[dorbie 0]

Yup, Scott Miller advises some jumpers not to do this if their canopy is unsuitable. He also imposes height restrictions on this (2000 ft from memory). On the course I was on he suggested some jumpers upsized to large docile student canopies so they could safely attempt some of the exercises. From memory he also warned about unevenly releasing the toggles. On the jump immediately preceeding the stalls (on the course I was on) one of the exercises was to hold the canopy in brakes then let up a toggle (among other exercises) and report how the canopy responded.

These exercises need to be viewed in context, it's not a case of just telling jumpers to go up and stall their canopy.

[bch7773 0]

I've done this with a pd230 lots of times... the thing even flies backwards in a stall... I rode it for about 1000 feet until it decided to spin up for no reason.

MB 3528, RB 1182

[mjosparky 4]

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I've done this with a pd230 lots of times... the thing even flies backwards in a stall... I rode it for about 1000 feet until it decided to spin up for no reason.

Canopies don't "decide" to do anything. They do just what you tell them to do.

If it was flying backwards it was not in a stall. It spun up because one side stalled while the other side continued to fly backwards.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[wmw999 2,534]

I was in his class, with an elliptical canopy, recently. Nope, no full toggle stall (heck, the riser stall was exciting enough with a Diablo!). But he asked us if we had ever thoroughly stalled a rectangular canopy -- anyone who had never fully stalled a canopy was going to rent one for the exercise -- so apparently he thinks it's pretty important, when suitable.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Salsa_John 0]

I took Scott's course as well. Great course.
I knew what to expect but, it was still pretty freaky getting thrown on my back. the reinflate was real fun!

Did rear riser stalls as well. Got to know my canopy better. good to know.

BTW for my own peace of mind and safety all canpoy work was completed by 3k.

Scott is a great teacher. He saved my ass twice on a couple of long spots. his vids also helped me with my landings.

Kudos Scott

"You did what?!?!"

MUFF #3722, TDSM #72, Orfun #26, Nachos Rodriguez

[cbain 0]

I also took Scott's class with an elliptical canopy. He only had me do the rear riser stalls. He does cover in the class that more things can go wrong when stalling an elliptical canopy. I was also going to rent gear to do the toggle stall but couldn't find gear to fit. Still seeing the video and knowing what to expect was a big help when I accidently stalled my canopy the other day doing practice flares up high.

Christina

[lummy 4]

What's the difference between a rear riser stall and a full brake stall? (Please don't tell me it's pulling the risers instead of the brakes, I realize that ;)) I was under the impression that they were the same

I promise not to TP Davis under canopy.. I promise not to TP Davis under canopy.. eat sushi, get smoochieTTK#1

[AggieDave 6]

They are not the same, the canopy will react completely different in either stall. I'm sure you've done a good toggle stall before, right? You know how the canopy bowed back, the endcells touched and the canopy collapsed? That's not what happens on RR stalls. RR stalls the canopy stops flying but retains much of its full flight shape due to the entire back half of the wing being distorted, the tail flaps and you can definately tell you're in a stall.

My advice to you is to go up to altitude and do a clear and pull (obviously, tell the pilot, etc) and play with it. I'll do RR stalls on my high performance canopy where as I try to stay away from full on stalls with my toggles.

Obviously, don't do this down below 2.5k where you might be in traffic, since it is possible to screw something up or have the canopy get away from you and you need to chop it. Not only that, but I would HIGHLY recommend chatting with your S&TA about doing this before actually doing it.

Or better yet, take Scott Miller's course and have him explain it, he does a 100% better job then I can in explaining things like this.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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What's the difference between a rear riser stall and a full brake stall? (Please don't tell me it's pulling the risers instead of the brakes, I realize that ;)) I was under the impression that they were the same

Think about what you are doing when you pull down on the brakes versus the rears. On the brakes you are only deforming the tail. It's very much like using flaps on an airplane. It allows the canopy to fly at a slower airspeed. But with the rears you are shortening the C and D lines and thus changing the angle of incidence of the canopy.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[dorbie 0]

Rears alter the chord of the wing over the entire aerofoil which is more analogous to the purpose of flaps on a rigid wing, but it's a deformable wing on lines hence the lack of an ideal analogy.

Bottom line a rear riser stall will be more stable and the entire canopy tends to stall more evenly and remain rectangular collapsing on itself front against back, toggles on the other hand tend to horseshoe the canopy folding the tail in on itself making it behave more chaotically.

[jman 0]

Scott's course was so much more than I could have ever expected. I did end up with some line twists after collapsing my canopy and it was a good experience. However my last jump in Scott's course was the bad spot jump. Guess What... My very next jump after the course was a bad spot. Only 3 of 16 made it back to the DZ. Skills learned & skills used. I actually made a decision to turn away from the DZ to land safely. Because of Scott's course it was the right decision.

[AFFI 0]

How do we change heading low to the ground in order to take evasive action when avoiding an obstacle? When pulling a single toggle down we will turn and dive creating a pendulum effect - when landing, the ideal position in relation to your body is to have the canopy ABOVE your head. Slow Flight/Flat Turn, keeping the canopy over your head is the proper way to avoid obstacles low to the ground right? After witnessing a jumper in the middle of a flat turn to avoid an obstacle impact the ground, make a good PLF then get up and walk away as opposed to others I have witnessed loose their lives because they pulled a single toggle down at 100 feet AGL trying to avoid, the choice is clear. I know instructors who do not know how to stall their canopy; many jumpers think it is too "scary". Braked approach and landing is on the U.S.P.A. A License Proficiency Card for a reason and too many jumpers just get “signed off”. Personally, the thought of stalling at 50 feet while flying in brakes to avoid a ground obstacle because I do not know the stall point of my canopy is much scarier than learning how to stall it properly at a safe altitude - say above an altitude I am willing to cut away from? Learning to stall what you have over your head does not mean you have to fully deflate your canopy. I have made literally hundreds of stalls at a safe altitude in preparation for the day when I have to make a flat turn low to the ground while taking evasive action low to the ground. Many more jumpers loose their lives taking evasive action low to the ground than over-stalling their canopies at a safe altitude.

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[Scrumpot 1]

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I actually made a decision to turn away from the DZ to land safely.

EXCELLENT!! ...That's the most encouraging statement I've read out of a "lowbie" (no insult intended) on this subject in a long time! --THANK YOU!!!!
Blue Skies,
-Grant

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[lummy 4]

thanks for the explanation.. I've never been able to fully stall my canopy using the brakes but have using rear risers (quite a few times in fact). I think my confusion came from someone saying if you couldn't stall it with brakes to use risers instead so I just assumed they were the same.
Next time I do a cross country, I'll play with both methods.

I promise not to TP Davis under canopy.. I promise not to TP Davis under canopy.. eat sushi, get smoochieTTK#1

[Casurf1978 0]

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Scott's course was so much more than I could have ever expected

You can say that again. There was so much info in his class. I could devote entire days to practicing the exercises from each of the 5 jumps we had to do and still not even begin to touch the full potential of my current canopy. Please dont take that as wanting to learn HP piloting/landings, just want to become a good safe pilot. My landings still leave much to be desired, but now I know what I need to work on, "trust the finish" like Scott told me.

[SCR10480 0]

"I don't know your wing loading, canopy design, etc., etc., but others just reading this, and thinking this for themselves who could be under higher loaded elipticals for instance, need to be aware that there ARE indeed possible greater risks, and/or consequences if this is practiced inappropriately (or without either understanding and instruction)."
__________________________________________________

Amen to that! I have a Vengeance (airlocked) and it does NOT delflate in a stall...it simply goes backwards. If, during recovery the toggles are not raised slowly, and evenly it will surge forward (read below you) and spin like a rotor!

I have no video, but I can show you my underwear with the big bite taken out of the seat!

[murps2000 86]

: "I don't know your wing loading, canopy design, etc., etc., but others just reading this, and thinking this for themselves who could be under higher loaded elipticals for instance, need to be aware that there ARE indeed possible greater risks, and/or consequences if this is practiced inappropriately (or without either understanding and instruction)."
__________________________________________________

Amen to that! I have a Vengeance (airlocked) and it does NOT delflate in a stall...it simply goes backwards. If, during recovery the toggles are not raised slowly, and evenly it will surge forward (read below you) and spin like a rotor!

I have no video, but I can show you my underwear with the big bite taken out of the seat!
***

The jumper in the referenced 1998 incident was also jumping an airlocked eliptical. Several people on the airport that day considered it to be a contributing factor. It was an aggressive stall, too.