Thoughts on panic

[feuergnom 28]

After reading the forums, especially s&t and incidents for quite a while now I thought I had to add some of my 0.2’s.

Whenever there is a thread in incidents (especially with low-turn incidents or no pulls), a lot of thought is put into preventive measures, like more training or even more regulations.
More training is always a good thing, for you never stop learning (even if I think that never stopping to learn is more a matter of attitude than something you can “train” a person to. A dickhead will always remain a dickhead).
As for more regulations: I don’t live in the states, your far's and bsr's do not apply in my home-country, so I won’t elaborate on this one.

Almost every time one question arises “Why did the jumper in question panic”.
The only possible answer is obvious: Because he panicked! And how much panic can affect your behavior is rarely understood thus leaving everybody with a puzzled look on the face still asking for the why.

I guess most of you have never been in a situation where real panic took over. So let me share this short one with you.

Just recently I started taking classes in scuba-diving. During one of the dives in the pool you have to take your mask off to see what it’s like to loose it underwater. To make the story short: I freaked out completely. I lost it. I thought that I was not able to take one more breath and I blew the whole situation by going back up to the surface. Luckily it was only from the bottom of a 12ft deep pool… Had this happened in real live from far deeper it would have had consequences concerning my health

What really shattered me was this: In my mind I knew I was panicking. I thought: Hey, this is only 12 feet of water above your head so shut up and just take a breath. Relax, it's your training, there is nothing o be afraid of you can handle it..... And still there was no fucking way to get out of this state of panic. I was just struggling to get a fresh breath of air on the surface and I couldn’t calm myself.
Aftrewards, outside the pool, as soon as i had calmed down i knew i had learned something extremely scaring yet also extremely valuable - how it is to be struck by panic

So if you ask yourself the next time: Why did the injured/deceased jumper in question do a “panic turn” or a “panic whatever” – one possible answer is: because he was – for whatever reason – struck by a situation that he had not encountered before and the only answer his mind could come up with was panic. if the jumper was lucky. he was just injured. if not some of us are mourning over a loss


Feel free to add your thoughts & comments


edit to add some lost sequences

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[beowulf 1]

There is nothing anyone can do to stop anyone from panicing. All the training and rules go out the window when panic takes over. It seems to me that there are alot of people on this forum that seem to think that they can legislate fatalitys out of existence. That will never happen. Skydiving is dangerous and will always be dangerous and people will die. All the rules and training will not stop people from dying, but trying is all we can do. Just don't have false expectations.
Personally I think that education is the way to go. If someone will not listen to reason then too bad so sad. This is an adult sport and I refuse to treat anyone like a child. If they want to fly that sub 100sqft canopy into the ground then go for it. Everyone has deal with their own consequences.

[phoenixlpr 0]

I have learnt something with skydiving:

panic = death

I had some mals. It was quite empty and peaceful, just me and EP. There was not panic or time out there. It has slightly changed my life. I had the shocking effect just on the ground after landing with a reserve.

[NWFlyer 2]

Obviously, I'm a total newbie to this, but since my training is very fresh, and I've already had to apply it, I hope I can contribute to this discussion...

I think the point is that you can't train someone not to panic, but what you can train is reactions that are so automatic, they (if you are lucky) can override panic so that you take action anyway. You plant thoughts and phrases in peoples' mind so strongly that they rise to the surface of the brain in those moments of panic.

I am relatively new to both scuba and skydiving, but in both sports I have found myself in situations where hearing those mantras helped me out of tough situations. I had the "must get to the surface" panic during my first open water dive when I was practicing a regulator exchange and I heard my instructor's voice in my head saying "THE SURFACE IS NOT THE ANSWER" and I knew at that point I had to get my act together, blow out the water that I thought I was about to choke on and get a regulator into my mouth and start breathing on it.

I couldn't find the rip cord on my first clear & pull off static line. I heard my instructor's voice saying "TRY TWICE AND ONLY TWICE THEN PULL SILVER." After I'd tried twice, I knew what I had to do.

Maybe I wasn't truly "panicked" in either of those situations. What I was, was well-trained. Drilled to the point where those reactions were automatic. That's the best you can hope for in sports where split-second decision-making is sometimes critical.

The other thing that training can do, of course, is help people avoid getting into situations where split-second decisions are needed. Yes, you learn how to do a regulator exchange in scuba, but with proper planning and execution of your dive, you're never going to have to do it. Proper planning and execution of your landing pattern in skydiving should help you avoid being in a situation where you have to make a split-second decision low to the ground.

It's true we don't know what was going through a jumper's head in that moment of panic, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't fight the good fight trying to get people to avoid those moments of panic in the first place and know what they need to do so instinctively that their logical brains can (hopefully) override their panicked brains.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[Hooknswoop 19]

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There is nothing anyone can do to stop anyone from panicing. All the training and rules go out the window when panic takes over.

You were never in the military, were you? You can train to prevent panic.

Derek

[riggerrob 643]

Panic is the result of more problems than answers.
The best way to reduce panic is to train the jumper/diver/soldier, etc. in a variety of scenarios and train them repeatedly to drill the solution into them.
For example, the best way to prevent panic hook turn fatalities is to teach standardized landing patterns that force people to think 1,000 feet ahead of their canopies.
Then teach them how to do half-brake turns, and the Australian "I really messed up this hook turn" manuver, etc. so that when they find themselves boxed into a corner, they have enough skills to limp back from the adjoining field.

The British Army has a brilliant plan for training soldiers how to handle new and unusual scenarios, because - let's face it - if the mujahadin are any good, they will invent new tactics faster than the brass can invent solutions.
The British Army likes to send young soldiers on "adventurous training" outings that involve horse back riding, rock climbing, parachuting, boating, etc. outings that dump soldiers into scary, dangerous, confusing environments, then watch how they solve their new problems.

This is the same logic as a junior skydiver making a few jumps with a canopy formation coach, even if the junior jumper never buys a stacking canopy and never does any formation larger than a 2 stack, he has learned enough about flying close to other canopies that he will not panic the next time he finds himself close to another canopy. Instead, he will calmly grab a rear riser to turn out of the idiot's way and suggest that the idiot might learn to fly his *&^%$#@! canopy better if he did a few jumps with a canopy formation coach.

[beowulf 1]

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There is nothing anyone can do to stop anyone from panicing. All the training and rules go out the window when panic takes over.

You were never in the military, were you? You can train to prevent panic.

Derek

Nope never went into the military. Also never had a situation where I paniced so bad that I couldn't think of what to do. For some reason when things get really bad I actually seem to get really focused. I have saved my own ass a few times because I didn't panic. I really don't understand those fatalitys where someone has paniced. It just seems to me that those people threw away everything they were taught and did what ever popped into their paniced mind.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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It just seems to me that those people threw away everything they were taught and did what ever popped into their paniced mind.

They threw away their training instead of relying on it. They failed to rely on training and better judgement even though they could have. That is why I do think you can 'train away' panic. Imagine how many people would panic on their first malfunction if they did not have any training. Fortunately they get the training and do not panic.

Derek

[beowulf 1]

I am not trying to say that training is not the solution. I think it is the solution. I agree with you. I just don't think it will totally stop people from panicing and killing or hurting themselves. That will never change. There will always be a few people that will panic and throw everything out the window.

[Hooknswoop 19]

I think you are right.

Derek

[feuergnom 28]

guess you boiled my post down to these three lines

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[feuergnom 28]

of course you can train to be prepared for an awfull lot of situations - nonetheless i think that even with the best training possible you can still mess it up and loose it

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[SpecialKaye 0]

Think of it this way..."to panic is to stop thinking." These were wise words that I was given by the late, Jimmy Godwin, God Bless him and his wisdom. Jimmy gave me these words when I "panicked" at his DZ in Umatilla, FL. I couldn't remember where the power lines were and landed in Farmer McNasty's field next door. Jimmy didn't chastise me, but treated me with compassion as a new jumper and offered his wisdom...I have tried to follow his example over the years and pass on to the new kids having problems.

Hope this helps you deal with you "panic" problem.

Blue skies,
Kaye...Easterpig13

[billvon 2,991]

>I really don't understand those fatalitys where someone has paniced.

Panic is a survival instinct. It makes people into better fighters or better runners. They don't feel pain, they get faster, they get stronger etc. That's why we have it - someone who carefully considers what to do as an angry bear is running at him is going to be toast, whereas someone who runs like hell or starts swinging his club is going to stand a better chance. Works for angry bears, but doesn't work too well for driving or skydiving or flying since we don't have any instincts that cover those things.

That being said, training will get you around it. You can drill anything into anyone, from marching into a hail of bullets to doing the right thing while falling 120mph. The best way to do that is via repetition. The memory areas we tap into under pressure are not much involved with rational thought, so you have to drill the motions over and over again until they are well established in that memory.

[chuckbrown 0]

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That being said, training will get you around it. You can drill anything into anyone, from marching into a hail of bullets to doing the right thing while falling 120mph. The best way to do that is via repetition. The memory areas we tap into under pressure are not much involved with rational thought, so you have to drill the motions over and over again until they are well established in that memory.

Which is why currency is vital in this sport (or any aviation activity).

[kelpdiver 2]

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There is nothing anyone can do to stop anyone from panicing. All the training and rules go out the window when panic takes over.

You were never in the military, were you? You can train to prevent panic.

Derek

Trial by fire! Either you get better, or you wash out.

But it's hard to do it skydiving. The hanging harness might approximate the shaking, but can't trigger the panic response like a real malfunction could.

Scuba instruction used to have stress drills, but they've largely been removed in this kinder era, banned by some of the organizations. Some will still do the random reg or mask yank, but the closest I've seen lately is randomly going up to students and giving the out of air signal.

Feuergnom, 12ft of depth is more than enough to embolize in the worst case surface bolt. I had my own little incident in the pool training during a doff and don on the bottom. Did most of it fine, but in undoing a kink in the primary hose, I rushed and swallowed water. The instructor then 'helped' by hitting the purge button, sending that water deeper. Bolted about 3 ft, then recovered, surfaced slowly, and moved on. Somewhat useful experience, but not as much as the experience of removing all gear on the bottom and redonning. I've had to do that once or twice in the real ocean since.

[kallend 2,027]

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Somewhat useful experience, but not as much as the experience of removing all gear on the bottom and redonning. I've had to do that once or twice in the real ocean since.

Is that no longer required? It's over 30 years since I was current, but that used to be a requirement when I got my license in 1969. And we had those horrible low pressure regulators on the back with long floppy tubes to the mouthpiece that held about a liter of water that had to be blown out.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[NWFlyer 2]

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Somewhat useful experience, but not as much as the experience of removing all gear on the bottom and redonning. I've had to do that once or twice in the real ocean since.

Is that no longer required? It's over 30 years since I was current, but that used to be a requirement when I got my license in 1969. And we had those horrible low pressure regulators on the back with long floppy tubes to the mouthpiece that held about a liter of water that had to be blown out.

I just got certified last year and we had to do that in the pool but not open water.

[dorbie 0]

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Somewhat useful experience, but not as much as the experience of removing all gear on the bottom and redonning. I've had to do that once or twice in the real ocean since.

Is that no longer required? It's over 30 years since I was current, but that used to be a requirement when I got my license in 1969. And we had those horrible low pressure regulators on the back with long floppy tubes to the mouthpiece that held about a liter of water that had to be blown out.

I just got certified last year and we had to do that in the pool but not open water.

Yup, in the open water you just remove your mask, at least with the PADI training. The curriculum varies with certification organization but the equipment is a LOT better, even from when I was first diving. No more ABLJs or manual inflation and everyone has an octopus rig so they don't even teach buddy breathing. They do train you to hand your spare demand valve to another diver .

I liked the PADI training, less doctrinal bullshit (that could even endanger you IMHO) than the Scottish Sub Aqua Club, and very practical. They really winnowed it down to the basics but your'e not going to be able to give your dive partner EAR as you tow him to shore for example. You'd have to progress to rescue diver for that kind of thing.

[kelpdiver 2]

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I liked the PADI training, less doctrinal bullshit (that could even endanger you IMHO) than the Scottish Sub Aqua Club, and very practical. They really winnowed it down to the basics but your'e not going to be able to give your dive partner EAR as you tow him to shore for example. You'd have to progress to rescue diver for that kind of thing.

Yeah, true progress. And with PADI, you can't take Rescue until you pay for the "Advanced" merit badge.

PADI removed the Navy Seal crap, then moved on to remove anything that might scare people.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Somewhat useful experience, but not as much as the experience of removing all gear on the bottom and redonning. I've had to do that once or twice in the real ocean since.

Is that no longer required? It's over 30 years since I was current, but that used to be a requirement when I got my license in 1969. And we had those horrible low pressure regulators on the back with long floppy tubes to the mouthpiece that held about a liter of water that had to be blown out.

It's commonly done on the surface now - I think that's the standard for SSI and PADI. Mine was a NAUI instructor; they're still given carte blanche to a high degree to do anything they want on top of the required elements.

Regs now (or at least since the mid 90s) don't retain very much water. Mask clearing is usually a bigger hurder for people to adjust to.

[smiles 0]

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The best way to do that is via repetition. The memory areas we tap into under pressure are not much involved with rational thought, so you have to drill the motions over and over again until they are well established in that memory.

In 1990 the CISM permanent technical committee was conducting a comprehensive study about cut-away failure with a view to ending a ten-year series of fatal incidents in civil and military parachuting.

I have an old CISM-Parachuting Cut-Away Failure Technical brochure No. 48e by Rene Maire 1992
and reading it helped me understand panic/no pull to some extent.

The first page of report is dedicated to Jens-Henrik Johnsen aged 37 who died in a tragic parachuting incident March 14, 1992. He realized his main parachute was not functioning properly and, therefore, initiated the normal cut-away procedure, but he hit the ground with the reserve parachute completely intact in the pack.

Irony of his death is that he had firmly committed himself to prevent this type if incident. He had been studying psychology and would soon have completed his doctorate at the University of Stanford. For several years he had been analyzing a variety of personality profiles collected from hundreds of parachutists in a continuous attempt to find practical approaches to prevent cut-away failure. (term applied to skydiver that initiates emergency procedures with cut-away but does not complete procedure with reserve pull)

So-called information processing cerebral processes, i.e. physiological and psychological mechinisms which the brain uses to code the information received from internal and external environments, to store it, compare and integrate it with available knowledge, retrieve, use, ----and "forget it" and plan and implement reactions. Interactive processes are explained using a model.
1. Initial interpretation of incoming information-(via eyes, ears, visceral receptors...)
2. Cognitive interpretation of incoming information.
After input information is received by the receptors, the signals are transferred to the working memory.

A skydiver who has practised and automated the emergency procedure while in a relaxed state will be able to make optimum use of this knowledge as long as he/she remains in a functional state corresponding to that in the training situation. Re: the emergency procedure is stored in "lower memory."
When malfunction causes a state of panic, the brain cannot access "lower memory" In such a situation, rated "extremely dangerous", only the "higher memory" locations are available.

Unpredictable panic reactions even occur for experienced skydivers that have dealt with emergency situations previously. Re: managing to cope with an emergency one time and saving their ass......can often feel even more terrified when they experience the same situation for a second time.
The fact that the jumper "got off with fright" it is only afterwards they realize it..with dismay...what could have happened. When experiencing a similar stressful event again...the memories of fear are recalled by the brain from previous situation and can block those memory locations which store the programs for extreme danger to acquire the necessary knowledge needed to survive the second time.

So, in order to avoid your brains process it would be so intelligent to do your repetitive practise of emergency procedures in a state of extreme panic.
This is not entirely impossible as panic only arises in a real emergency. Training situations should at least simulate conditions which are as similar to the real situation as possible. The skydiver should practise under the influence of (the most intense possible fear) The state of excitation existing at the time of training re: emergency procedures plays an important part in retrieving the stored information at a later date.

SMiles

[thegman 0]

Just curious. How many mals have you had @ 185 jumps? Or is your info out of date? Just curious

http://www.freefallmaniacs.net