Advice for faster than normal landings

[TerminatorSRT4 0]

Hey there everyone, I was hoping to get advice on the best thing to do when landing at a faster-than-normal speed. Not talking about swooping, but on no-wind days for example. I'm decent at landing right now, usually flare at the right time and can normally do stand-up landings. Not saying I'm perfect at landing by any means...

So for example on a no-wind day, when I'm coming down to land and flare like usual, sometimes I find myself traveling too fast to run it out (plus I don't want to start running, trip up and then start rolling across the DZ ).

But is a PLF really appropriate for this situation? If attempted wouldn't you just start rolling all over the place and getting your container smashed into the ground if you're going fast enough and possibly messing with the reserve pack job? I know sliding in on your butt can compress your vertebrae (if you're not experienced and know how to do it properly), so I'd rather not do that. Would sliding in on your side be more appropriate? Sort of like a slide-tackle?

Thanks in advance.

[diablopilot 2]

I find newer jumpers who are having trouble "running out" their landings are not doing two things correctly.

1) Flare all the way. This means hands below your buttocks. Otherwise your wasting lift which keeps you off the ground longer and allows you to slow down more before setting your feet down, and it increases the braking effect from the canopy.

2) Don't put your feet down just because you've reached ground level. You've spent all that time and money to be a flying creature, why rush your re-encounter with the ground?

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[TerminatorSRT4 0]

thinking about it, I'm pretty sure I'm guilty of doing the two things you just said, not flaring all the way and trying to touch down too early

I'll have to pay more attention to those two things next time, thanks for the advice

[skyshimas 0]

I think you should work on your flaring. There is no reason not to stand up a no wind/down wind landing. Canopy course would come in handy on explaining what you might have to do different to improve no wind landings. Or maybe someone on your drop zone can explain you(better yet with a footage). I see many skydivers stab on the toggles last second on every landing never giving a chance for their canopy to roll out. While getting decent landings they are not as soft as it could be. So different situations require different inputs on the toggles. Bad tendencies that I see that affect the landing are leaning back in the harness and not finnishing the flare (one should finnish it all the time no matter what) reaching for the ground etc
I think I just went over board here hope it helps tho!

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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Hey there everyone, I was hoping to get advice on the best thing to do when landing at a faster-than-normal speed. Not talking about swooping, but on no-wind days for example. I'm decent at landing right now, usually flare at the right time and can normally do stand-up landings. Not saying I'm perfect at landing by any means...

Get video and some one who knows how to coach canopy control to look at it (that may be neither the best swooper on the DZ nor a rated instructor). If you can take a class with Brian Germain or Scott Miller that's a no brainer.

Establish at altitude that the brake lines are short enough to let you achieve a dynamic stall if you apply them at flaring speed.

Flare all the way.

Don't touch the ground until the canopy won't support you.

Don't start running and stop flaring if your feet touch the ground anyways. Flare faster and slide if the ground is even (don't face plant if it isn't).

Realize that landing is an interactive activity. The goal is to get close to the ground (apply brakes quicker if the ground is coming up too fast; stop adding brakes if the ground stops getting closer; etc), stay there with zero vertical speed while you add drag and slow down, and then kill as much of your forward speed as you can before your feet touch the ground.

It's smooth, like driving a car. You can't make a career out of driving deep into a corner, slamming on the brakes once you get into the shoulder, and then trying to turn. It won't look pretty, it's not fast, and eventually you'll crash. You have to look where you want to end up and gradually approach there. Brian Germain says it's ballet not boxing.

You might break it into three phases - pull a bit to level out as you get to ground level, slowly pull more to bleed off speed, and punch it down a bit to put on the brakes.

Plane out so that your feet would be below ground level and then rise back to ground level before you run out of flare. You'll have less forward speed than if you tried to fly the canopy all the way into the ground.

That will get you stopped in a couple steps with an 8000 foot density altitude at 1.9 pounds/square foot.

Don't land on your butt and compress your spine (you can get compression fractures) while trying to master landings.

If you can land in the pea pit (downsizing when you can't do that consistently isn't the best idea) set up to land there and keep your feet off the ground until you run out of lift (if you screw up, the pea gravel is a nice soft place to crash). You'll probably be surprised at how far you go.

Upsize or change canopy types if what you're jumping does not agree with your technique. Some time you're going to land with a tail wind. That might be on pavement because you're landing out on a street.

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So for example on a no-wind day, when I'm coming down to land and flare like usual, sometimes I find myself traveling too fast to run it out (plus I don't want to start running, trip up and then start rolling across the DZ ).

Unless the canopy is overloaded (for the design and density altitude) you shouldn't have to run.

[TerminatorSRT4 0]

no, you didn't go overboard, I'm looking for all and any advice

sounds like my problem may not be flaring all the way. on days with wind I can usually get a nice soft landing, but on no wind days it seems to make more sense to make sure you flare all the way and not be too eager to touch down and make sure you ride it out as long as you can

will definitely try remembering this for future jumps on no-wind days (and even on windy days actually)

[Baksteen 84]

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But is a PLF really appropriate for this situation? [..] Would sliding in on your side be more appropriate? Sort of like a slide-tackle?

If you're not sure you should stand it up, PLF is the most appropriate method of landing.
Think about it - they don't teach students to side-slide in FJC right?

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[TerminatorSRT4 0]

no they don't, but if I'm coming in fast and perform a PLF, it just seems like it might do more damage then good rolling around at 10+mph and rolling over onto your back and possibly messing with the reserve pack job, not to mention getting all tangled in your lines

most of the people I have seen landing in no-wind scenarios who weren't able to stand it up (including experienced jumpers) have either ended up sliding in on their sides, on their butt, or sometimes actually falling forward into a push-up position

only time I've ever really performed a PLF and seen other individuals perform a PLF is when a flare is conducted too high, so you're a few feet above the ground and have no forward movement and just sink straight down, I've never actually seen a PLF performed when coming in at higher speeds caused by a no-wind situation

given I'm only seen a couple hundred landings over the few months I've been jumping, just pointing out my observations

[Baksteen 84]

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no they don't, but if I'm coming in fast and perform a PLF, it just seems like it might do more damage then good rolling around at 10+mph and rolling over onto your back and possibly messing with the reserve pack job, not to mention getting all tangled in your lines

most of the people I have seen landing in no-wind scenarios who weren't able to stand it up (including experienced jumpers) have either ended up sliding in on their sides, on their butt, or sometimes actually falling forward into a push-up position

only time I've ever really performed a PLF and seen other individuals perform a PLF is when a flare is conducted too high, so you're a few feet above the ground and have no forward movement and just sink straight down, I've never actually seen a PLF performed when coming in at higher speeds caused by a no-wind situation

given I'm only seen a couple hundred landings over the few months I've been jumping, just pointing out my observations

I am not that experienced either - I've only been around for two years - but I got the feeling that experienced skydivers don't PLF simply because it's not "cool".

That push-up motion you refer to sounds suspiciously like a so-called face-plant. People try to run it out but go too fast and fall over. Definitely not cool and very probably painful, for the body or at least the ego.

Butt slides I don't see so often (with non-swoopers). I myself have two, in both cases because I fucked up, realising too late I couldn't stand up the landing and I was already too low. Both landings were soft, but I was lucky.

Side slides I myself have never seen, but my personal opinion is that when I'm going 10+mph I'd rather roll to distribute the energy of impact. Think sliding vs rolling across hidden stones or whatever. I'll start worrying about my reserve once I know for certain I'm still in one piece.

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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But is a PLF really appropriate for this situation? [..] Would sliding in on your side be more appropriate? Sort of like a slide-tackle?

If you're not sure you should stand it up, PLF is the most appropriate method of landing.
Think about it - they don't teach students to side-slide in FJC right?

Pretty much only classic accuracy jumpers and BASE people cross-training jump at FJC student wingloadings. While I jumped a 295 and 288 as a student and had a 205 as a first canopy, at contemporary standards I'd have been under a ZP 170.

Sliding is probably a more reasonable way to manage a lot of forward speed, but to avoid fractures (I've seen Cocyx, sacrum, pelvis, and lumbar vertebrae broken) you have to do something like a baseball slide instead of slamming in on your ass.

[TerminatorSRT4 0]

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That push-up motion you refer to sounds suspiciously like a so-called face-plant. People try to run it out but go too fast and fall over. Definitely not cool and very probably painful, for the body or at least the ego.

exactly what I was talking about, just couldn't think of the right term

[Baksteen 84]

Let's put that down to the difference between 1500 and 33 jumps, shall we? (Or 200 for that matter.)

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[shropshire 0]

You could always face east on landing..... As the Earth spins west to east... you could reduce your ground speed....

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[Snowflake 0]

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Hey there everyone, I was hoping to get advice on the best thing to do when landing at a faster-than-normal speed. Not talking about swooping, but on no-wind days for example. I'm decent at landing right now, usually flare at the right time and can normally do stand-up landings. Not saying I'm perfect at landing by any means...

So for example on a no-wind day, when I'm coming down to land and flare like usual, sometimes I find myself traveling too fast to run it out (plus I don't want to start running, trip up and then start rolling across the DZ ).

But is a PLF really appropriate for this situation? If attempted wouldn't you just start rolling all over the place and getting your container smashed into the ground if you're going fast enough and possibly messing with the reserve pack job? I know sliding in on your butt can compress your vertebrae (if you're not experienced and know how to do it properly), so I'd rather not do that. Would sliding in on your side be more appropriate? Sort of like a slide-tackle?

Thanks in advance.

Let me throw this out there.

Talk to your instructors about 1 stage vs 2 stage flares. IMHO it's real hard to land no wind with a 1 stage flare. I don't know if that's your issue, but it's useful information

edit to add If it comes down to a choice of my gear getting dirty and looking foolish or hurting myself. I'll choose getting my gear dirty every time. I really try to avoid putting myself in situations where I have to make that choice though.

[LaRusic 0]

I used to be in the same boat, no wind landings always ment being ready to plf because i couldnt run out the landings. then i got some really good canopy coaching which is pretty well what Drew has been talking about. best piece of advice i got was fly your canopy until it cant support you anymore and then put your feet down. it has really helped my landings, now i look forward to no wind days cause i enjoy that last little bit of flying.

The Altitude above you, the runway behind you, and the fuel not in the plane are totally worthless
Dudeist Skydiver # 10

[CSpenceFLY 1]

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I find newer jumpers who are having trouble "running out" their landings are not doing two things correctly.

1) Flare all the way. This means hands below your buttocks. Otherwise your wasting lift which keeps you off the ground longer and allows you to slow down more before setting your feet down, and it increases the braking effect from the canopy.

2) Don't put your feet down just because you've reached ground level. You've spent all that time and money to be a flying creature, why rush your re-encounter with the ground?

Ditto,
My motto, It's easier to fly then run.

[pchapman 279]

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You could always face east on landing..... As the Earth spins west to east... you could reduce your ground speed....

Better in Florida nearer the equator than in the UK. And when someone has a turn on landing, maybe it can be blamed on coriolis forces. :)


But seriously, to add to the other useful stuff in the thread:

A PLF is handy when there's vertical speed to dissipate, if you drop it in from some height.

Slides are good for taking care of horizontal speed, unless the terrain is uneven enough that you might catch a foot and break an ankle.

But to slide you do have to be down low, not planed out a foot above the ground. You need to be down where you lift your feet a bit and then just put them down for ground contact.

Keeping the plane out low avoids both any vertical drop at the end, and allows for a low body center of gravity so you don't pitch forward while trying to slide with feet out in front.

(Or if you are the stage with a canopy where you can't guarantee the plane out is at a precise height, X inches off the ground, you can pretty much plane out but with a very gradual descent so that some time during the flare process you get to the desired height and finish the flare.)

It is hard to run out a landing if you have any significant vertical velocity on landing -- If you touch down running, one foot touches first, and it will take a lot of the vertical energy shock on its own. Easy to hurt yourself that way.

A slide also allows for a more gradual transition from flying to not flying. As weight transfers to your feet from the canopy, you are effectively loading the canopy less, allowing it to keep flying to a lower speed.

As for getting your rig dirty in a PLF, if you really need to, you just do it. Better than slamming in on your wrists and face as people do when they are unprepared for whatever excess speed they have on landing.

I'm not sure how to best describe it, but getting ready to twist on landing is helpful. You need to twist if you are going to PLF rather than fall face forward, and if you are going to slide it in, you need to do it to be less likely to drop it straight in on your tailbone and spine.

[billvon 2,995]

I agree with JP here, just one clarification:

>Many people get to ground level and set their feet down way to soon, one
>should instead pick them up for a moment . . .

Good advice, just don't forget to put them back down! That can lead to butt landings or "off balance" landings where your feet are too far in front of you.

Also, keep in mind that if you are going to land hard, the very last thing you want to do is "get your legs out of the way." Get your legs underneath you and bend them a little so that they, not your back, absorbs the landing.

[GLIDEANGLE 1]

The two articles linked below address your question. They are wirtten by canopy flight experts. The contrast in their views is interesting.

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/safety/detail_page.cgi?ID=671

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/safety/detail_page.cgi?ID=680

The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others!

[wmw999 2,452]

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if I'm coming in fast and perform a PLF, it just seems like it might do more damage then good rolling around at 10+mph and rolling over onto your back and possibly messing with the reserve pack job, not to mention getting all tangled in your lines

I do that with an embarrassing regularity. I've never damaged my container or reserve pack job by PLF'ing. I've gotten it dirty, but that's not damage to me.

A good PLF can, in fact, burn off a decent amount of forward as well as downward speed (note: I don't jump a really fast canopy; a Diablo at about 1.35). But you don't put your feet way out in front of you to act as a nice pivot for your body; the idea is to burn off the momentum (in whatever direction) by rolling in a coordinated, planned manner.

Practice makes perfect. And remember that the purpose of your landing is to allow you to jump again the same day. If you can't make your landing controllable such that you can anticipate landing safely every time, then you're doing it wrong.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[jumpwally 0]

Yes,,,two little drogue's on your feet..

smile, be nice, enjoy life
FB # - 1083

[tshimizu 0]

I only have a few jumps and had many issues with my landings until recently and here's a few things that helped me out.

If you are renting gear, try and borrow the same gear each time until you are comfortable with your landings. Flare power differs from canopy to canopy.

On no wind days, I find myself finishing the last part of my flare faster to get a little extra slow down before I touch.

Know the winds when you go up, and also have a look at the windsock on final. This usually gives me a better idea of how to adjust the timing on my flare especially if winds have changed. I haven't quite gotten an instinctive feel for subtle differences in speeds under canopy.

Have someone take video of your landings. I personally haven't done yet, but I hear it's a great way to get some good feedback.

And everyone really speaks highly of canopy courses(I also need to take one of these), they're worth every bone in your body.

[BUBLHED 0]

***
I think Scotts' advice is more appropriate for someone that is having "problems" with there flare and landings. Brians' advice I feel is for somebody that has consistantly decent landings and just wants to get alittle better. I really like Brians book but I feel that it is a little advanced for alot of young jumpers. They need to get the basics of flight, traffic awareness and decent landings before moving on. Seems that quite a few are in to damn much of a hurry these days to become "skygods". There is no hurry people have fun and don't get broken!!!

Enough ranting sorry.

ATTACK LIFE ! IT'S GOING TO KILL YOU ANYWAY!!!!

[VerticalRush 0]

I've seen some good advice here from some good instructors. Now, take some of the advice you're getting and take it back up high. Talk to the instructors at your DZ about full altitude hop and pops so that you can dedicate some jumps to just learning more about your canopy. Feel the way you rock in your harness when you flare. Feel the direction of the wind and listen to its intensity. Get to know your canopy and the way it reacts. Learn where the stall points are and how to recognize when you're appraching that point. Then, talk to a canopy coach or an instructor about what you discovered and how it can be applied to smooth and consistant landings.

[TerminatorSRT4 0]

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I've seen some good advice here from some good instructors. Now, take some of the advice you're getting and take it back up high. Talk to the instructors at your DZ about full altitude hop and pops so that you can dedicate some jumps to just learning more about your canopy. Feel the way you rock in your harness when you flare. Feel the direction of the wind and listen to its intensity. Get to know your canopy and the way it reacts. Learn where the stall points are and how to recognize when you're appraching that point. Then, talk to a canopy coach or an instructor about what you discovered and how it can be applied to smooth and consistant landings.

good advice, I'd love to do a hop n pop from full altitude...but I'm thinking I might wait until spring/summer because I don't feel like coming back down as a frozen icicle

but on a serious note, I will definitely apply all the advice on here and hopefully I can improve on some of these faster landings