Trick with tandem

[Sangi 0]

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I don't know Dave, might make for some eye catching video. I can hear the intro now

"Tonite on Rescue 911, an English sky-god attempts to prove, yet again, that stupidity IS painful"
"I'm William Shatner,and we will return right after a word from our sponsor, Lifestyle condoms, because some gene pools should be allowed to dry up"

What ya think?

ralph

How many times do I have to repeat myself over and over again?

I didn't say I was going to perform this kind or any other kind of stunt with a tandem, I'm just saying it looks quite good when others do it and succeed!!!

"Dream as you'll live forever, live as you'll die today." James Dean

[AggieDave 6]

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How many times do I have to repeat myself over and over again?

Its not what you're saying. Its your overall attitude, which is piss poor and unwilling to listen to experienced jumpers trying to help educate you. If you're unwilling to listen to high experienced jumpers about something that you don't participate in (tandem jumps), then why would people believe that you will listen about the important things. The important things that will save your life or prevent you from killing our friends?

I've only been in the sport for a bit over 8 years, but in that short time I have seen people like you come and go. I have also seen people like you get a cool helicopter ride to the hospital. Unfortunately I have seen people like you kill my friends.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Sangi 0]

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How many times do I have to repeat myself over and over again?

Its not what you're saying. Its your overall attitude, which is piss poor and unwilling to listen to experienced jumpers trying to help educate you. If you're unwilling to listen to high experienced jumpers about something that you don't participate in (tandem jumps), then why would people believe that you will listen about the important things. The important things that will save your life or prevent you from killing our friends?

I've only been in the sport for a bit over 8 years, but in that short time I have seen people like you come and go. I have also seen people like you get a cool helicopter ride to the hospital. Unfortunately I have seen people like you kill my friends.

I'm willing to learn and listen as long as you give me hard facts and detailed explanations about what might happen or about the events that happened and not only say "I'm more experienced than you, so shut up." without any decent explanation
Edit: I understand how you feel towards my attitude, yeah sometimes it can be ignorant, but when people actually explain in detail (which has happened) how things happen and why they happen I really change the way I think and I become a lot more cautious...

"Dream as you'll live forever, live as you'll die today." James Dean

[AggieDave 6]

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I'm willing to learn and listen as long as you give me hard facts and detailed explanations about what might happen or about the events that happened and not only say "I'm more experienced than you, so shut up." without any decent explanation

More than a few people in this thread alone have explained the dangers in performing stunts as described with a tandem pair. Some of these people are so familiar with tandem systems that they are rated to train people to be tandem instructors.

Many of these specific examples have been cited by different people in different ways in an attempt to explain (again) why these sorts of stunts with a tandem pair is not wise. Who do you need to explain this to you for you to get it? How do you need it explained? At this point, with all the I/E's having chimed in and other very experienced instructors having chimed in, we're just short of having God himself prepare a Power Point! He's worried that he'll get copped an attitude, though.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Sangi 0]

An explanation in a more technical way...

How does the premature deployment happen if someone holds onto the drogue?

I'm not familiar with tandem rigs and how they actually work.

Thanks

"Dream as you'll live forever, live as you'll die today." James Dean

[AggieDave 6]

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I'm not familiar with tandem rigs and how they actually work.

Look at a tandem rig when you go to the DZ. Premature drogue releases have happened a significant amount of times through out the history of tandem skydiving. In fact, out of sequence deployments have killed more than a couple of tandem pairs.

The short answer is that any tandem system can have a premature drogue release, especially with the drogue out, how that is possible on a specific tandem system is slightly different between some of the tandem systems.

If you have some jack ass standing on the tandem rig, holding onto the drogue, a premature released of the drogue could quickly kill all three people.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Sangi 0]

Alright.

I'll be having a more detailed explanation in a local DZ...
Out of sequence deployments - did they happen during the exit or the actual freefall? So the impact of premature deployment can kill? When it happens is the drogue out or not? If it's out shouldn't it slow down the speed of their fallrate and not give the a hard opening impact?

"Dream as you'll live forever, live as you'll die today." James Dean

[AggieDave 6]

Educate yourself. The documentation is available for free online, take a look at the instructor's documentation on UPT's website. Also look at the tandem fatalities database. You'll be able to put 2 and 2 together.

My point is instead of sniveling on a random website, spend some time exploring the free resources available to you directly from the manufactures.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Sangi 0]

Can I get some links please?

"Dream as you'll live forever, live as you'll die today." James Dean

[AggieDave 6]

Sure:

http://justfuckinggoogleit.com/

I like trying to help educate young jumpers; however, I hate piss poor attitudes like the one you have shown in this thread. Please follow the above link.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Sangi 0]

Thanks

"Dream as you'll live forever, live as you'll die today." James Dean

[NickDG 23]

Oh boy, this thread is rich. And I'm sure I'm not the only "older timer" who sees the irony in it.

This Sangi sounds like a lot of you guys did to us back in the mid 90s or so. Belly is dead, Freefly is sick and swooping is the schnizzel, blah blah blah . . .

We sat around in denial calling you guys lawn darts while laughing at your fishbowl helmets, electronic gizmos, and how you killed yourselves in droves under good canopies. But we didn't see the freight train that was coming our way. And by the end of the 90s the sport we knew and loved was changed forever.

But we had a good run as for almost 40 years the sport stayed relatively the same. We had the time to produce the best relative workers, the best CRW dogs, the best camera flyers, and the best Instructors and Riggers. But during that last ten years I can't tell you how many of you took delight in telling me how my way of skydiving was, "so last decade."

But change is a runaway train. It keeps coming faster and faster and sooner than later we all get run over. But you poor saps barley got going, and Ha Ha Ha the freight train is already coming for you! And engineer Sangi is at the controls, wearing his jaunty cap askew and blowing the whistle and ringing the bell.

And guess what suckers, the bell tolls for you . . .

But take heart as all is not lost. We all became Air Trash and the beer's still cold, the sky's still blue, the funnels are still fun, and the parties are still hearty. And there's room in the DZ parking lot for you too. You'll just have to come up with a new club name. Free Garbage is available.

NickD

[diablopilot 2]

Ok, I'll chime in for this.....

Nick, you're a stinker!

I'll owe you a beer if we ever get the chance to meet face to face........

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[billvon 2,991]

>Out of sequence deployments - did they happen during the exit or
>the actual freefall?

They can happen either place.

>So the impact of premature deployment can kill?

Yes, in several ways. Entanglement or a spinning mal that causes a breakaway failure could kill you; TM's have been almost strangled by entanglements in the past. Even a normal premature drogue release can injure or kill you if it happens at a significantly higher speed than normal freefall. This could happen, for example, if some idiot is standing on your back when the drogue is released, or the TM delays throwing the drogue because he wants to freefly.

An even bigger issue is superterminal deployment of the reserve. If your cypres misfires (more likely at higher speeds; greater burble) then you may damage your reserve or yourself. A damaged tandem reserve is not a good thing, since you can't cut it away.

>If it's out shouldn't it slow down the speed of their fallrate and not give
>the a hard opening impact?

If:

1) there is enough time to slow down and
2) the drogue is not damaged by the higher speed of its deployment.

[Squeak 17]

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[Sangi 0]

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Oh boy, this thread is rich. And I'm sure I'm not the only "older timer" who sees the irony in it.

This Sangi sounds like a lot of you guys did to us back in the mid 90s or so. Belly is dead, Freefly is sick and swooping is the schnizzel, blah blah blah . . .

We sat around in denial calling you guys lawn darts while laughing at your fishbowl helmets, electronic gizmos, and how you killed yourselves in droves under good canopies. But we didn't see the freight train that was coming our way. And by the end of the 90s the sport we knew and loved was changed forever.

But we had a good run as for almost 40 years the sport stayed relatively the same. We had the time to produce the best relative workers, the best CRW dogs, the best camera flyers, and the best Instructors and Riggers. But during that last ten years I can't tell you how many of you took delight in telling me how my way of skydiving was, "so last decade."

But change is a runaway train. It keeps coming faster and faster and sooner than later we all get run over. But you poor saps barley got going, and Ha Ha Ha the freight train is already coming for you! And engineer Sangi is at the controls, wearing his jaunty cap askew and blowing the whistle and ringing the bell.

And guess what suckers, the bell tolls for you . . .

But take heart as all is not lost. We all became Air Trash and the beer's still cold, the sky's still blue, the funnels are still fun, and the parties are still hearty. And there's room in the DZ parking lot for you too. You'll just have to come up with a new club name. Free Garbage is available.

NickD

Finally, someone who sees things as they are...

"Dream as you'll live forever, live as you'll die today." James Dean

[bdazel 0]

NickDG,

While I respect your wisdom and experience in this sport, I hope that your post does not cause readers of this thread to casually dismiss the issues discussed herein as just more growing pains on the evolutionary path of skydiving. I do not disagree with anything you said in principle, but I must insist that tandem operations of today’s skydiving world present a unique scenario, one distinct and of far greater importance than that which you describe.

First, tandem operations have become an essential part of today’s skydiving industry. The days of small 182, club type, non-profitmaking dropzones have been largely replaced by commercial operations that employ full-time skydivers and expensive turbine-engine aircraft. Today’s skydivers are able to enjoy the benefits of faster climb rates to higher altitudes. These advantages allow the envelope-pushers to go out and find ways to make this thing evolve. Tandems keep those airplanes flying and dropzones in business all over the world. I posit that if tandems went away, our skydiving world as we know it or envision it would disappear. Tandems are the life blood of the sport.

Second, more and more people rely on skydving, specifically tandem operations, for their livelihood. It is not just a hobby or a fun past-time anymore. It pays the bills, keeping people fed and sheltered. I think that much of the emotion seen in this thread is due to people reacting to a perceived threat to their livelihood.

Because of the unique and essential role that tandems play in skydiving today, tandems should not be a part of the natural evolution of this sport, which seems to push the envelope to find ways to add excitement once the current practice becomes routine. Every time someone dies and a tandem rig is involved, it affects the public’s perception of how safe our sport is. The ripples are felt across the world. It seems to me foolish, arrogant, and selfish to experiment with a tandem rig in a way that adds unnecessary risk. (Note that I haven’t touched on the issues of how this applies with a first-time student, because that is a separate issue.)

I know that I am still very naïve about many things in this sport, and can never have the advantage of your hindsight, but I do feel your post is irresponsible, and serves only to pat yourself on the back while you point, laugh, and say “I told you so.” If I’m wrong, I ask you to please show me the light. But I feel this needs to be put out there.

[BMFin 0]

I tried to squeeze the essential point in your post to a shorter:

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Tandems are the life blood of the sport.

+

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Every time someone dies and a tandem rig is involved, it affects the public’s perception of how safe our sport is.

I think here we are now approaching most of the reasons why the whole consept of tandem is so sacred and taboo-ish and why it creates such strong emotions that are difficult to reason.

I agree that offering tandemskydiving for the wuffos does benefit our sport. I agree with what you said about this part.

However, Im not so convinsed that if someone dies trying a skydiving stunt, it would jeopardize the existence of tandem industry overall simply because it involved a tandem rig.

If you think the governing party fails to see a distinction between a stunt and a student tandem, why would they still manage to see the distinction between a swoop fatality and a student tandem? Dont you think any swoop fatality might also jeopardize the future of tandems as the "ever so straightforward" public sees our sport too dangerous ? Also I wonder what exactly makes the governing party immune for any factual information of the incident at hand, even if some misinformed individuals might jump to conclusions after such incident(s) ?

I think this is the second real argument against the actual issue of experienced jumpers performing this stunt. (the first argument was that someone might want to emulate this stunt without realising the dangers) I think both of these arguments are quite weak indeed, but Im curious to hear more arguments supporting your thory about the "publics perception" and futhermore what effect it might have.

I admit, this is a very difficult question to answer comprehensively. Im curious to hear arguments pro / contra on this issue you brought out..

[bdazel 0]

My concern is the perception of the misinformed individual and the loss of their money that might have been spent on a future skydive absent negative media coverage of a tandem rig-related incident. We need first-timers to trust that they will be taken care of and kept safe both by their instructor and the gear that is used.

My concerns are not directed toward any governing body, as I agree it will not be confused by any details of the incident.

[NickDG 23]

>>First, tandem operations have become an essential part of today’s skydiving industry.
Tandem is what killed skydiving . . .

NickD

[pilotdave 0]

Tandem is what changed skydiving. It's alive and well though!

Dave

[BMFin 0]

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My concern is the perception of the misinformed individual and the loss of their money that might have been spent on a future skydive absent negative media coverage of a tandem rig-related incident. We need first-timers to trust that they will be taken care of and kept safe both by their instructor and the gear that is used.

My concerns are not directed toward any governing body, as I agree it will not be confused by any details of the incident.

Actually, though maby rather sad, I think any reportage of a skydive fatality will actually bring more intrested people towards the sport.

[bdazel 0]

Ah, I see. You and I will never be able to agree because we have fundamentally different visions of skydiving. The only sport I've known was fueled by tandems.

From your perspective, I can see how you would want Tandems to go away, allowing the sport to devolve into what it was years ago. That might be a good thing; I do hear many engaging stories about the good 'ol days.

Personally, I hope the sport keeps evolving, and I believe it will. As you said, the train is rolling. But in order to do so, the industry needs a strong tandem operation. That is the single piece that should not be messed with.

Don't attack the trunk of your tree if you want the branches to keep spreading.

[NickDG 23]

Yeah, but once upon a time our novice ranks were filled with people who managed to go it alone, and now . . . ?

NickD

[bdazel 0]

Now we do more jumps in a day, from bigger airplanes and higher altitudes at larger dropzones that provide more amenities. Basically, we're spoiled compared the early days. We've evolved, and we can't go it alone anymore.

I can imagine a time when the bonds with your fellow jumpers were tighter, the value of each skydive was much greater, and the overall feel of the sport was warmer. I humbly suggest that maybe these are some of the qualities you've seen slide along the way. Sounds like a great thing to me, but do you really think there's any way to go back?