Re: [Bigwallmaster] Fatality at Perris

[Orange1 0]

a newbie question re the chest strap comment ... on my DZ, everyone gets checked out... students by instructors, experienced jumpers by each other ... i've seen the CCI stopping & checking an experienced jumper about to board the plane because he'd seen the guy had not got himself checked out... is this not standard practice everywhere, that everyone has to be checked out BEFORE being allowed to board?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Tonto 1]

It's a good idea, but it's not practiced everywhere.

It's a lot easier when you have a C-207 that does MAYBE 20 loads a day compared to a fleet of twin otters, King air, etc. The Brits have a SIGN OFF check out system after one of their guys sabotaged his own gear - but it hasn't stopped people from dying.

I think whatever system you have - or not - it shouldn't keep people from looking around. I see stuff every day that I jump. Some critical, mostly nothing.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[plastic 0]

"the brits have a sign off system after one of their guys sbaotaged his equipment and it hasn't stopped anybody from dying"

At my dz in the uk we already had the sign off system when i started in 1991, these checks have from time to time resulted in people who had put on their gear incorrectly being given the chance to rectify the situation on the groud rather than hoping somebody spots it in the plane.

Nothing is foolproof but if it helps to reduce the number of incidents then it has to be worth doing. I have seen people being pulled up for incorrectly routing the chest strap 3 times, twice abroad (1 in usa 1 in spain) as they were getting into the aircraft and one in england when they were being checked out on the flightline. On this occasion the jumper in question had just returned from 3 months jumping in the usa and earlier had complained to us about the flightline check being a "silly waste of time"

This may also be a wake up call for anybody who has a cypres and thinks that will guarantee them a canopy before impact. The cypres has indeed saved a lot of lives but the best method is still to stay altitude aware and deploy the canopy yourself at a safe height.

still, condolences to friends and family of the deceased.

[tdog 0]

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a newbie question re the chest strap comment ... on my DZ, everyone gets checked out... students by instructors, experienced jumpers by each other ...

A newbie answer for ya… I really like it when the DZ culture is like yours. I have been to a few DZs that are that way. Our home DZ is very friendly too… You don’t get checked automatically unless you are a student – but they will hold the plane with a smile if you ask for a check.

Let me preface this by saying I really think Perris does a good job in educating about their DZ in the wavier process… But the one jump I did there I walked up to the flight line and said, “Hey, this is my first jump at this DZ. I am gonna be playing around on my belly as a solo, what is the exit order you guys like here? Where would you like me?” An otter load of people looked at me like I was an alien from outer space and walked away from me. No one answered my question, so I made it up as I went. Not a single gear check was given on the plane… At the other DZs I have been to, the whole load of people would have introduced themselves to me, told me the procedures of the jump run/exit order, pointed out some tidbits about the DZ, and talked to me.

So, to answer your question – it is my experience at 4 DZs that I have been to, you better be real good at having a very accurate self-gear check because you will not always get people who are willing to help. The bigger the DZ – the more it operates like a ski resort – the less like a tight knit community. That is my experience from being at a Cessna DZ, a single otter DZ, a three plane DZ, and a huge DZ. Very linear – the bigger the DZ, the less gear checks are given.

Sorry to take this thread a bit away from the incident… But since I did have a Perris experience I thought I would take a gamble at posting it since someone asked. I am not implying Perris, or any large DZ, is dangerous or lead to this incident.

[plastic 0]

I have also heard people say the same thing when they have visited perris.
If you are on your own and need a gear check ask an experienced local jumper, maybe an instructor if possible, no self respecting experienced jumper should ever refuse to help with a flight line check, if they are local and do not want to take the responsibility then they should at least point you in the direction of somebody who can help.
We do have at least a moral obligation to try and help each other stay alive.

[wmw999 2,537]

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you better be real good at having a very accurate self-gear check

Regardless of where you jump, that's what you should strive for. Because having someone else find a problem in what you've done is, in some ways, like having your Cypres fire -- it's a sign that you didn't execute basic safety procedures properly.

No one is perfect; that's why we do gear checks. But past student/newbie status (or the buying of new gear), you should always feel comfortable going up in your own rig with your own check, and use someone else's gear check as a confirmation.

We've gotten very used to very reliable gear. A lot of old failure modes are largely prevented with better gear design. Let's not get complacent.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Orange1 0]

i've seen some posts where people seem quite scathing of smaller DZ operations, but the more I read the happier I am that i'm learning at a small DZ with a small plane! I've never once had the experience of asking a pro something and being treated like an idiot, even though some of the questions have probably seemed really dumb to anyone with more than 10 jumps

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Michele 1]

Just to voice an opinion about gear checks - I jump at Perris, and have had experienced jumpers stop me and check gear; I've also approached experienced jumpers and asked for a gear check. I've asked instructors for gear checks there, and they've never done anything but said "sure."

Condolences to all involved.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[Ron 10]

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Just to voice an opinion about gear checks - I jump at Perris, and have had experienced jumpers stop me and check gear; I've also approached experienced jumpers and asked for a gear check. I've asked instructors for gear checks there, and they've never done anything but said "sure."

You are a local. Locals get treated differently than visitors at most DZ's...It should not happen, but it does.

Once at Zhills I saw a (non local) guy getting on the plane with his rig over his shoulders and legstraps not on at all.

I asked him to at least put his legs through his legstraps.

His response?

"What are you my fucking Mom?"

My response?

"No, but she called and told me to tell you to quit acting like a jackass and put your gear on."

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[riggerrob 643]

Reminds me of a briefing given by an Ontario DZO, back in the 1970s.
"... and if a senior jumper refuses to check your gear, send him to me and I will ream him a new @$$hole!"

[riggerrob 643]

Formal military-style gear checks are popular in Britain and South Africa.
The process only appears to be more casual in North America.
NA students still get formal gear checks before boarding the plane, however, licensed jumpers are expected to check their own gear before putting it on. Then we steathily scan each other's gear while walking to the plane.
"Honest miss, I really was checking your chest strap buckle!"
While riding in the airplane, I casually scan other people's gear, then tease people who forgot gloves, forgot to tuck in strap ends, etc.
NA gear checks may appear more casual, but the end goal remains the same.

[Frenchy68 0]

I jumped in France once. The "Senior" jumper on the load gave a gear check to everyone boarding the plane. He also determined separation upon exiting, and enforced it by the door. Once again, it was a fairly small DZ (one plane, Pilatus).

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[Michele 1]

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You are a local. Locals get treated differently than visitors at most DZ's...It should not happen, but it does.

Maybe you're right...but I guess my point was more "I actively seek out gear checks" rather than waiting for someone to notice something's wrong.

I always check my own gear, both before putting it on, as well as once it's on. However, that doesn't mean I've got everything covered...a second pair of eyes is invaluable for me. And while nothing has ever been discovered, that doesn't mean I'm perfect or infallible or whatever. It simply means that up until now I've not had a problem; it doesn't guarantee that I won't in future.

To take it from being local, I jumped over Christmas in Oregon. I got two gear checks before I got in the plane (I asked) and then in the plane (I asked).

I guess, again, that my point is those who ask receive, and those who don't may not receive. I'd rather be responsible and ask then rely on someone seeing something maybe perhaps if they're looking....

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[billvon 3,072]

>An otter load of people looked at me like I was an alien from outer
>space and walked away from me.

Interesting. On the Perris loads I'm on, someone always asks who's doing what so we can figure out exit order. Sometimes the discussions can get quite animated, with tracking dives wanting to go first, a 4-way team wanting to get out at 10,500 and a freeflyer who wants to video his RW buddy's exit.

>Not a single gear check was given on the plane…

Well, at Perris, the convention is that you generally don't touch anyone else's rig unless they ask for a gear check (or you know them and they're OK with people messing with your rig.)

[tdog 0]

I was waiting for a "Perrisian" to respond.

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An otter load of people looked at me like I was an alien from outer space and walked away from me.

Interesting. On the Perris loads I'm on, someone always asks who's doing what so we can figure out exit order. Sometimes the discussions can get quite animated, with tracking dives wanting to go first, a 4-way team wanting to get out at 10,500 and a freeflyer who wants to video his RW buddy's exit.

I assumed I was on a load of dull, unfriendly people, and hoped that it was NOT indicative of the larger population. Perhaps it was the time of day and once they woke up they could be awesome friends...

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>Not a single gear check was given on the plane…

Well, at Perris, the convention is that you generally don't touch anyone else's rig unless they ask for a gear check (or you know them and they're OK with people messing with your rig.)

I understand fully. I would have been upset if someone touched my rig without asking or offering first. But I was the only solo. The 4way team did not check themselves. The few groups of freeflyers did not check themselves. No one asked. No one offered. No one did. Perhaps they did the no-touch look without asking check, but still...

[chrisgr 0]

What Ron pointed out is an unfortunate problem.

We have too many jumpers who “know what is best for them” and will not take any advice or suggestions from others … even if it involves something as important as gear checks.

It may be an attitude problem with some or just a simple lack of maturity. I have seen jumpers of different ages and genders respond in the same manner as the jackass that Ron encountered.

Part of the problem may be the notion that you “don’t touch anyone else’s rig unless they ask for a gear check”. Perhaps it would be safer to not allow a jumper on the plane unless someone else has performed a gear check on their rig.

It’s easy to implement this procedure. At a smaller DZ, you may only have a few jumpers in a smaller plane. It’s not too hard to wait a few moments and ensure that everyone has had a proper gear check.

At a larger DZ, you commonly have larger groups waiting in a loading area. While you're (hopefully) working out the exit order, give each other gear checks.

[billvon 3,072]

>Part of the problem may be the notion that you “don’t touch anyone
>else’s rig unless they ask for a gear check”. Perhaps it would be safer to
>not allow a jumper on the plane unless someone else has performed a
> gear check on their rig.

Hmm. I use a Reflex. I can touch my PC handle, verify that my main pin cover is closed, and check all the fittings/handles myself. There's nothing else to check on a Reflex. I don't get gear checks because I feel there's more chance of a checker screwing something up than finding a problem. I've had people:
-try to pry off the poptop to 'find the reserve pin'
-open both riser covers and pull the main risers out of the main container so they could check the reserve risers
-open the main pin cover and then re-close it _over_ the lower two container flaps, almost pulling the pin in the process

I'd hate to exit a plane and have an out-of-sequence deployment because someone checking my rig didn't know how to reclose the pin cover. I have no problem with people I know checking my gear, but I don't want someone I don't know doing it.

[chrisgr 0]

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I have no problem with people I know checking my gear

Then you would have many opportunities to meet new friends as you tell them all this before they give you a gear check.

[Ron 10]

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It may be an attitude problem with some or just a simple lack of maturity. I have seen jumpers of different ages and genders respond in the same manner as the jackass that Ron encountered.

I try to reason with people....One of my pet peaves is people who get on the plane not being geared up....BTW yes I have done it, I was stupid, but I am talkinga bout the folks that want to be "cool" and always get on with all their shit loose.

I was fortunate to be jumping with some legends of the sport two years ago turkey meet in Zhills. There was a young talented jumper and he was standing in the bording area...Leg straps loose, chest strap not done. I walked up to him and pulled him aside. I asked him to look around. We had two Airspeed Members, Derrick Thomas, and others with thousands of jumps standing out there. I asked him if any of them were cool...He said they were. I asked him how many of them were not geared up...Answer was none.

Another guy was getting on the plane...Same story all his shit hanging around.

I asked him this simple question.

"If at 1,200 feet the pilot tells all of us to get the hell out of the plane NOW....Do you think any of us are going to wait for you to get your gear on before we exit?"

He said no.

I said, "We are gonna go over, around, or push you out as we race to the door....Do you want to be in freefall with all your shit hanging off?"

I have no problem with getting a gear check....My dumb ass has climbed out before with a chest strap undone around jump # 30.

Since then I have been anal about checking gear...you may not know it, but if I can see you, I have checked your gear.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[JohnRich 4]

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at Perris, the convention is that you generally don't touch anyone else's rig unless they ask for a gear check

Thank you for saying that.

Sometimes, relatively new guys messing with other's gear with which they are unfamiliar, can make things worse than they were to start with.

I jump a spring-loaded pilot chute, and the owner's manual has a warning about doing the closing flap tuck tabs a certain way. If you do it wrong, you can potentially lock the pilot chute inside the main, and nothing will happen when the ripcord is pulled. Thus, I don't want anyone pulling that flap open and checking my pin, because they're likely to re-close it incorrectly, and create a problem where none previously existed. I can reach back myself and slide a finger under the flap to feel the pin and detect that it is seated properly.

Note: I've been unable to recreate this condition on the ground as per the warning, but I don't want to take any chances...

I've seen some very flagrant safety problems before, on eyeball gear checks; incorrect 3-rings, loose chest straps, twisted leg straps, cutaway handles tucked under and hidden behind the main lift web, a pull-up cord hanging out of a closing loop (!), and so on.

The one that really took the cake was a stranger on the DZ, who was headed for the plane, with his rig on inside-out! Yes, he flipped the main lift webs over to the back of the rig, and put it on, so that the pilot chutes were against his back, and the backpad was facing out. Amazing stuff!

By all means, if you're a new guy, and you see something you think might be wrong on an old veteran - don't be afraid to ask them about it. You might save their life. At worst, you'll learn something new.

[Orange1 0]

another naive newbie comment no doubt, but wtf is "cool" about not following basic safety procedures in a sport like this?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Ron 10]

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another naive newbie comment no doubt, but wtf is "cool" about not following basic safety procedures in a sport like this?

Good question.

What happens is that after a while you get confident in gearing up, and making a safe skydive...Well when that happens the anal retentiveness wears off. You stop getting pin checks, start having lazy pulls. Hum it down a little (whats the harm in pulling 100 feet low? The main has always opened right? Then its 200, 300 ect).

People *think* its cool, but I think thats far from the truth.

The same thing happens with High Performance canopies, jumping wingsuits before you should...ect.

Just like when you started driving. Your hands were at 10 and 2. You kept your eyes on the road...Now you have one hand on the wheel while you fish for a CD in the back seat while speeding and holding a drink between your legs.

As you get comfertable you get complacent.

In skydiving it can be deadly...But that does not stop it from happening.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[tdog 0]

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Since then I have been anal about checking gear...you may not know it, but if I can see you, I have checked your gear.

I want to jump with you some day.

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[Anon1234 0]

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Sorry to take this thread a bit away from the incident… But since I did have a Perris experience I thought I would take a gamble at posting it since someone asked. I am not implying Perris, or any large DZ, is dangerous or lead to this incident.

Sorry for the Anonymous reply, but this is not going to be a postive post for Perris Valley Skydiving and I am a newbie who had a very bad experience and don't want any ramifications from this post.

I am a fairly recent graduate of the Perris Valley Skydiving School AFF program. After AFF I have felt so alone and on my own. There are so many things that I was supposed to be taught at each level on the ground that I was not. The only things we ever went over was the skydive. I did have FJC, but that doesn't go over each skydive and what to learn on the ground at each level.

I didn't realize how much I was not taught until I was with my instructor at graduation and he was trying to sign off my profiencency card all the points that are marked to have been learned/gone over in AFF. He asked me if I had done a gear check on any one else. I told him that I had never been shown how to do a gear check on my own gear, the only thing I was shown was how to turn on the cypress. I was only told to know where my handles were. There are so many items on this card that are supposed to be gone over in AFF and were never addressed. I had gear checks done by other instructors on the ground and on the plane, but no ever took the time to show me what they were doing, I didn't ask because at the time I thought that is something they will show me in one of the later levels.

The instructors at Perris are not given any time to be with the student before or after the jump. I would be handed a rig, by someone, then my instructor would come in from a tandem and ask me "So do you know the skydive?" Then we would go and do our jump, get in the truck and go back to the school. When you get to the school someone is standing pointing them to their next tandem, so you sort of get a briefing while they are introducing themselves to the tandem.

I am so scared to get in the sky that I am either going to go to another (smaller, friendlier) drop zone and do AFF over or whatever they suggest so that I can continue with a sport that I love or I may hire a private coach to work with me. I almost never can get time with an instructor at Perris. I have waited so long that now I am not current. I have thought about talking to someone at the dropzone but don't even know who to go to with this issue. I am a very non-confrontational person and don't want any trouble.

The standard statement I read on here when us newbies ask a questions is "Ask Your Instructor". Well, not a lot of confidence that I will get any time with an instructor at Perris, unless I start using vacation days and go during the week.

I wish they would have given us the card at the beginning of AFF because I would have demanded that my instructors go over the things that I was to learn on the ground. Now it is too late and all that money is gone and I am afraid to jump.

This incident made me even more scared, I don't want what I was not taught and didn't know to ask to be taught it to be my demise.

To their credit, they do make sure that you have had harness room time, I am very confident that in an emergency I will recognize it and do the right things in the right order. I have already has line twists, recognized the problem and handle it with no panic.

[wmw999 2,537]

Perris is a big and busy DZ. I have a feeling that if you're not a good-looking woman , the amount of attention might be commensurate with the degree of aggressiveness in seeking information.

Which means that naturally aggressive and outgoing types will get what they need and not understand the problem, and people who are on the shy and retiring side might have to step farther outside their comfort zone.

It can be scary to approach someone and ask them for time; particularly if they're busy, and even more particularly after you're shot down a couple of times. But you have to do it. It might harder for you than for most people (it was for me), but it's one of the ways you learn what you need to.

Read the SIM. Treat it as a checklist, and go to the jump school desk and say "I need someone to go over X/Y/Z with me."

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)