Re: [Ron] Snohomish Jumper Dies in Low Turn Mishap - 5 March 2005
By
Zenister, in Safety and Training
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nice hyperbole.. but with little evidence to back it.. the insurance industry is driven by perception and profit, and not actual risk levels or every McD's eating fatass would have higher rates than we do. The FAA doesn’t give a rats ass so long as you don’t hammer in on someone else’s private property or take out a non-participating tax payer. But of course there are people like you that seem eager to invite them in and turn the USPA into the same sort of micromanagement organization that the FAA has become.
![[:/]](/uploads/emoticons/dry.png "[:/]"){kind=small}
QuoteYou wanna do what you want? Great, have at it. But your own plane, on your own land, jump gear you made yourself, and have a great time.
how about we leave it up to each business owner to decide what risks are acceptable for their customers? why do we need national regulation to deny anyone the right to determine what they will and will not allow their patrons to do within the confines of their business... oh yea.. because you want to impose your personal acceptable risk level on everyone else... who exactly has the real issue with 'letting others play'?
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Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.
chrisgr 0
From Zenister's post ...
I doubt that in 4 jumps he actually demonstrated complete proficiency in any ‘recommended checklist’. What had he done prior to progressing to the Stiletto? What criteria did he use to determine that the Stiletto was the best choice at his experience level?
At 500 jumps and 2 years in the sport, he may just now have enough knowledge and experience to really get to know his canopy. Hopefully, he can demonstrate (prove) his skills to a canopy coach/instructor.
He must have considered other possibilities when he chose the Stiletto. What criteria did he use?
Some of the jumpers who have been injured and killed were flying canopies that were not appropriate for their experience level. They may not have used the same criteria and judgment when selecting a canopy. They may not have even known what criteria to use to select a canopy.
Another advantage of a w/l restriction is that it would give jumpers time to gain the knowledge and experience that you used to safely select an appropriate canopy
I bet you have enough experience to make an informed decision about a canopy and explain your reasons. I bet that you also took the time to really understand the performance of your canopy. With your experience (1600 jumps) and time in the sport, you can effectively describe the performance characteristics of your canopy and make an even more informed decision about another.
There are too many hotshots on HP canopies who can’t explain the real advantages (and dangers) of their wing, so they certainly can't explain why they chose such a canopy. Some may even rush through their own checklist of skills and never know what they don’t know.
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i had done all of the 'recommended checklist' by my 4th jump on it.
I doubt that in 4 jumps he actually demonstrated complete proficiency in any ‘recommended checklist’. What had he done prior to progressing to the Stiletto? What criteria did he use to determine that the Stiletto was the best choice at his experience level?
At 500 jumps and 2 years in the sport, he may just now have enough knowledge and experience to really get to know his canopy. Hopefully, he can demonstrate (prove) his skills to a canopy coach/instructor.
He must have considered other possibilities when he chose the Stiletto. What criteria did he use?
Some of the jumpers who have been injured and killed were flying canopies that were not appropriate for their experience level. They may not have used the same criteria and judgment when selecting a canopy. They may not have even known what criteria to use to select a canopy.
Another advantage of a w/l restriction is that it would give jumpers time to gain the knowledge and experience that you used to safely select an appropriate canopy
I bet you have enough experience to make an informed decision about a canopy and explain your reasons. I bet that you also took the time to really understand the performance of your canopy. With your experience (1600 jumps) and time in the sport, you can effectively describe the performance characteristics of your canopy and make an even more informed decision about another.
There are too many hotshots on HP canopies who can’t explain the real advantages (and dangers) of their wing, so they certainly can't explain why they chose such a canopy. Some may even rush through their own checklist of skills and never know what they don’t know.
Ron 10
You just keep yelling "Cause I want it and you can't stop me"
Your own accident is a prime example of what I am talking about, and it seems to me you are refusing to accept that you blew it out of ego.
You position of "An adult can do anything they want". Is interesting but has failed time and time before and it will fail here as well.
Rules and yes, regulations are already in place for many activities you do everyday. They were put there by people who know more than you or I in those areas. A normal person cannot be expected to be able to know everything they need.
Simple as that.
Your own accident was the result of nothing other than you screwing up. Hundreds of other have made that same mistake, many hundereds more will.
You were lucky you only snapped your femur.
Your own accident is a prime example of what I am talking about, and it seems to me you are refusing to accept that you blew it out of ego.
You position of "An adult can do anything they want". Is interesting but has failed time and time before and it will fail here as well.
Rules and yes, regulations are already in place for many activities you do everyday. They were put there by people who know more than you or I in those areas. A normal person cannot be expected to be able to know everything they need.
Simple as that.
Your own accident was the result of nothing other than you screwing up. Hundreds of other have made that same mistake, many hundereds more will.
You were lucky you only snapped your femur.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
Zenister 0
QuoteYour own accident was the result of nothing other than you screwing up. Hundreds of other have made that same mistake, many hundereds more will.
and will no matter how much training and time they have... gravity and inertia dont change.. if you 'screw up' and make a mistake skydiving it can kill you, and will no matter who's course you've attended or how many jumps you have..... (didnt you read the waiver?)
ego had absolutely nothing to do with my accident, but you cant seem to see past your own to recognize that your personal problems dont apply to everyone.
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I doubt that in 4 jumps he actually demonstrated complete proficiency in any ‘recommended checklist’. What had he done prior to progressing to the Stiletto? What criteria did he use to determine that the Stiletto was the best choice at his experience level?
doubt if you wish... i started jumping this stilletto around 200 jumps.. and i demoed several 150s before i got this one... it was just a matter of right place and price when i finally picked it up and it was my second choice.. ( i preferred the nitron but the price was right)
other than land on rear risers (which i have done twice to prove to myself i could) i did all of these inside my first 4 jumps on this canopy (at around 200 jumps mind you)
crosswind landings are daily occurrences at eloy, and pretty common anywhere else that has predefined directions.. (up the hill, down the hill at kapow which should answer the 2nd to last for you)
accuracy is important on every jump so its practiced continually. depending on traffic (i'm never going to cut across other jumpers because i'm committed to hitting MY spot) i might not land where i preplanned to before take off, but i can reliably hit the target i decide on before entering the landing pattern
double fronts, 90 and 180+ deg risers turns are all standard approaches (I was working on the 270 on this canopy and initiated it too low when I broke myself...)
my second jump on the silletto was a off landing (waaaay off) into an unknown field and required a fairly tight pattern to land in, not quite sure if my flat turn occurred at 50 ft, but it was fairly low...
so yes, i did the majority of that list in under 4 jumps on this canopy...and still kept it for the next 200 because i hadnt done all of MY list yet... (270s being one of the primary)
actually the flight characteristics of this canopy that are leading me to trading it for one with a longer recovery arc.. the shorter arc of the stilleto (and my lighter wingloading than most doing 270s) means that the 'sweet spot' for a ‘perfect’ 270 is lower than i'd like and leaves narrower margin of error than on a canopy that will dive longer.... being able to initiate a 270 at a higher altitude grants a longer entry window to turn in and more time to abort / correct if i were putting myself into the corner.
____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.
billvon 2,989
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>and will no matter how much training and time they have... gravity and
>inertia dont change..
That's sort of an irrelevant point. I mean, you could say that no matter how much training a pilot has, he can screw up and die, and that's definitely true. But take a guy with no flight training whatsoever and put him in the cockpit of an F-14 and he's probably going to die, whereas a military pilot will do fine. The difference? Their training and experience. Even though both pilots have to deal with gravity and inertia, one is going to beat them and one isn't.
I've heard this a lot. "You can get killed under any wing loading." "Even experienced people get killed." "You can take a course and still be an idiot." All true. Nevertheless, someone with good training and a lot of experience under a canopy is a safer pilot and can jump smaller canopies more safely than someone with less experience.
>inertia dont change..
That's sort of an irrelevant point. I mean, you could say that no matter how much training a pilot has, he can screw up and die, and that's definitely true. But take a guy with no flight training whatsoever and put him in the cockpit of an F-14 and he's probably going to die, whereas a military pilot will do fine. The difference? Their training and experience. Even though both pilots have to deal with gravity and inertia, one is going to beat them and one isn't.
I've heard this a lot. "You can get killed under any wing loading." "Even experienced people get killed." "You can take a course and still be an idiot." All true. Nevertheless, someone with good training and a lot of experience under a canopy is a safer pilot and can jump smaller canopies more safely than someone with less experience.
Ron 10
Quoteand will no matter how much training and time they have... gravity and inertia dont change.. if you 'screw up' and make a mistake skydiving it can kill you,
Nope, but the guy with more experience will be MUCH better off than the guy with little to none.
See training and EXPERIENCE allow a person a better chance at not getting hurt/killed in any related situation.
Thats a concept you can't see to grasp.
Quoteand will no matter who's course you've attended or how many jumps you have.....
Again experience matters. If I take you who have never flown a Helicopter and you go fly it...Chances are you are gonna die....I have some flight time...Chances are I am gonna get hurt. A guy that has passed his checkride will most likley be fine.
Same thing with skydiving. A guy can't just show up at a DZ and go make a solo jump.
Quoteego had absolutely nothing to do with my accident,
Wrong, you think you "had it under control". Your broken leg shows that you did not. Its not like you had mal, were cut off...ect you just flat out flew a good wing into the ground.
QuoteAfter a lovely 2 way freefly dive, with no real traffic in my designated landing area (secondary field at Eloy) I initiated a left 270 front riser turn at between 300-400 feet (according to eye witnesses) I have learned to rely on sight picture not my altimeter due to its inaccuracies at lower levels but simply did not bail in time, or at all really, when it should have been apparent I was not going to make it… All in all I was one lucky SOB in this instance. I made several stupid errors that could have killed me but got away lightly with a broken femur (no other significant injuries) few months off jumping and a new piece of titanium and its accompanying screws in my right femur
Yeah you were lucky.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
chrisgr 0
Thank you for taking the time to describe your CC work.
I do not doubt that you worked on CC skills. However, I question how well you understood the performance characteristics of your Stiletto when you were injured.
How many jumps did you have (total and on the Stiletto) when this happened?
Why were you pursuing 270 degree approaches with your w/l on such a canopy?
Do you remember one of the golden rules … ‘Know Thy Altitude’. This pertains to swooping just as much as freefall.
As we gain knowledge through education and experience we need to apply this knowledge to all aspects of skydiving. This process takes time and patience.
Perhaps attaining the 'perfect 270' is not the right objective.
I do not doubt that you worked on CC skills. However, I question how well you understood the performance characteristics of your Stiletto when you were injured.
How many jumps did you have (total and on the Stiletto) when this happened?
Why were you pursuing 270 degree approaches with your w/l on such a canopy?
Quote
I initiated a left 270 front riser turn at between 300-400 feet (according to eye witnesses) I have learned to rely on sight picture not my altimeter due to its inaccuracies at lower levels but simply did not bail in time, or at all really, when it should have been apparent I was not going to make it…
Do you remember one of the golden rules … ‘Know Thy Altitude’. This pertains to swooping just as much as freefall.
As we gain knowledge through education and experience we need to apply this knowledge to all aspects of skydiving. This process takes time and patience.
Perhaps attaining the 'perfect 270' is not the right objective.
Zenister 0
QuoteAgain experience matters. If I take you who have never flown a Helicopter and you go fly it...Chances are you are gonna die....I have some flight time...Chances are I am gonna get hurt. A guy that has passed his checkride will most likley be fine.
wanna make that bet? i have 0 hours of air time in a helio.. and i can guarantee you i can fly one better than you.. know anyone who wants to risk their helio?
QuoteQuoteego had absolutely nothing to do with my accident,
Wrong, you think you "had it under control". Your broken leg shows that you did not. Its not like you had mal, were cut off...ect you just flat out flew a good wing into the ground.
an ignorant statement, you have absolutely no idea what i 'thought' but you continue to make stupid assumptions about it because you apply your thoughts and motivations to everyone else... just because ego was(is) YOUR problem does not mean everyone else has the same issues you still obviously exhibit.
i know i was lucky, i've publically admitted it, but i also know recognized my error in time to dig out completely (i was already fully into the turn) and roll to absorb the impact...
but there really isnt any point in any discussion with you because despite your COMPLETE ignorance of the actual occurrence, you still stick solidly to your blanket assumption that really applies only to yourself and the corner your found yourself in when YOU fucked up... so stop playing holier than thou....
____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.
Zenister 0
QuoteThank you for taking the time to describe your CC work.
I do not doubt that you worked on CC skills. However, I question how well you understood the performance characteristics of your Stiletto when you were injured.
[How many jumps did you have (total and on the Stiletto) when this happened?
Why were you pursuing 270 degree approaches with your w/l on such a canopy?
411 total.. and over 200 on that canopy... i had been doing 270s (when conditions were right) for 50ish jumps...nearly always to high.. an infinitely better outcome than to low and i knew (know) the difference between a 'good turn' that leaves you your full control range and a 'just dug out and saved my ass' one that planes out above ground only because you used all your flare to make it..
QuoteDo you remember one of the golden rules … ‘Know Thy Altitude’. This pertains to swooping just as much as freefall.
that was my critical mistake (with several less significant ones contributing to it up to that point)... coming back from a long spot on rear risers to the field on the other side of the DZ where i hadnt landed (recently.. over a year) i completely blew my sight picture while trying to focus on getting a smoother turn and set up to low.. also the same smoother turn i had been working on for several jumps prior (when a sharper less effective turn would have taken less total altitude and planed out faster)...and the combination of steeper dive and absolutely terrible set up used up all the altitude i had left myself...
____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.
relyon 0
QuoteQuoteAgain experience matters. If I take you who have never flown a Helicopter and you go fly it...Chances are you are gonna die....I have some flight time...Chances are I am gonna get hurt. A guy that has passed his checkride will most likley be fine.
wanna make that bet? i have 0 hours of air time in a helio.. and i can guarantee you i can fly one better than you.. know anyone who wants to risk their helio?
Do get video...
Bob (helicopter CFII)
dorbie 0
Quote
QuoteThank you for taking the time to describe your CC work.
I do not doubt that you worked on CC skills. However, I question how well you understood the performance characteristics of your Stiletto when you were injured.
[How many jumps did you have (total and on the Stiletto) when this happened?
Why were you pursuing 270 degree approaches with your w/l on such a canopy?
411 total.. and over 200 on that canopy... i had been doing 270s (when conditions were right) for 50ish jumps...nearly always to high.. an infinitely better outcome than to low and i knew (know) the difference between a 'good turn' that leaves you your full control range and a 'just dug out and saved my ass' one that planes out above ground only because you used all your flare to make it..QuoteDo you remember one of the golden rules … ‘Know Thy Altitude’. This pertains to swooping just as much as freefall.
that was my critical mistake (with several less significant ones contributing to it up to that point)... coming back from a long spot on rear risers to the field on the other side of the DZ where i hadnt landed (recently.. over a year) i completely blew my sight picture while trying to focus on getting a smoother turn and set up to low.. also the same smoother turn i had been working on for several jumps prior (when a sharper less effective turn would have taken less total altitude and planed out faster)...and the combination of steeper dive and absolutely terrible set up used up all the altitude i had left myself...
You obviously learned something from your mistake. You mentioned getting a canopy with a longer recovery arc. Other than teh specifics of your incident is there anything else you would teach someone to help them avoid bouncing like you did or do you see it as a risk that goes with the territory?
What would you say to someone on the DZ over a beer if you saw them doing exactly what you were doing around the time you bounced?
QuoteQuoteQuoteAgain experience matters. If I take you who have never flown a Helicopter and you go fly it...Chances are you are gonna die....I have some flight time...Chances are I am gonna get hurt. A guy that has passed his checkride will most likley be fine.
wanna make that bet? i have 0 hours of air time in a helio.. and i can guarantee you i can fly one better than you.. know anyone who wants to risk their helio?
Bob (helicopter CFII)
I'll take some of that bet.
Solo'd in a Hiler U12E
Sparky
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals
Jimbo 0
Quotewanna make that bet? i have 0 hours of air time in a helio.. and i can guarantee you i can fly one better than you.. know anyone who wants to risk their helio?
Nope. No ego here.
-
Jim
"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.
dorbie 0
QuoteQuoteQuoteAgain experience matters. If I take you who have never flown a Helicopter and you go fly it...Chances are you are gonna die....I have some flight time...Chances are I am gonna get hurt. A guy that has passed his checkride will most likley be fine.
wanna make that bet? i have 0 hours of air time in a helio.. and i can guarantee you i can fly one better than you.. know anyone who wants to risk their helio?
Bob (helicopter CFII)
No need to wait for video, here's someone with a similar delusion.......... and a helicopter.
http://www.alexisparkinn.com/photogallery/Videos/heli_crash_(self_taught).wmv
Listening to the audio at the end is central to the full enjoyment of this movie.
Amazon 7
QuoteNo need to wait for video, here's someone with a similar delusion.......... and a helicopter
Oh yeah.. great video...Me think Hog didnt have a clue... He proved the basic premise taught to me by a chopper pilot in 1971.. Helicopters do not fly... you try to maintain them in a controlled state of crash.
Hog "Aw shucks man.. it has two pedals and a stick like a plane.. how hard can it be... now what does this collective thing do"
No the diaologe is not in the video.. but dayum....that has to be one of the worst first flights of a chopper I have seen...come on Zen dear...just let me know when you are ready to try..I wanna get the video from a BIG ditch.. with a cement culvert I can hide in once you are "flying".
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Liemberg 0
Quoteif you 'screw up' and make a mistake skydiving it can kill you, and will no matter who's course you've attended or how many jumps you have.....
To me it seems you have a problem with grasping the concept of likelihood.
It is possible that I 'screw up' and break something
It is possible that you 'screw up' and break something again
However, MY bone structure staid fully intact during 25 years and 2700 jumps. From what I gather just reading your postings here YOU (with less jumps and years) femured already once and I get the impression that up until now you didn't get the full educational benefit that is the only 'pro' between all the 'cons' femuring has...
Therefore, I think it is more likely that YOU will screw up again in the future - which is not the same as saying that it is impossible that I will be the one who screws up in the future....
Now if this 'screwing up' of you were to happen at my DZ in front of a group of first jump (tandem) students, I think it is highly likely that several of them would decide against making the jump, seeing the ambulance and hearing you make those loud, incoherent noises.("been there, done that but was left without money to buy the T-shirt")
Of course I could insist that they had to pay me anyway or refuse to give them a full refund if they had paid me already, but it is highly likely that they wouldn't agree and send solicitors and journalists. This would cost me time and money, in all likelihood and is why I don't want people to 'screw up' at my place, even if that means I violate their constitutional rights to do so ("only hurting themselves").
If I think I can predict a 'screw up' I am fully aware that there is no way in the world I can be sure that the event will actually take place. It is even possible that I, myself, will be the one laying there screaming and moaning and chasing away the clientele...
But I'm a gambler by nature who always bets his money on the outcomes he perceives ast most likely....
OTOH I also don't want my clients to go to the competition, so if between us (me and my competitors) we can agree what a likely screw up would be - say an uneducated guy with under 200 jumps jumping a 1,3 to 1,5 loaded elliptical - then maybe on a national level we could regulate to reduce the likelihood of screw ups like that - much the same as has happened with pull altitude...
Just my € / $ 0,02 ...
"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...
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