Prefered way to train for A license?

[EAPD202 0]

Hey all, Ive only done 2 tandem jumps so I dont know anything and dont claim to but want to learn and am saving money now for A license training.

What id like to know is which training method do you guys prefer/suggest? Static Line, or AFF. the place I plan on going for training has a $1000.00 diference in price and im trying to decide which to save up for.

Thanks in advance.

[Baksteen 84]

I'm not an instructor and 200 jumps, despite how impressive it sounds really is nothing on the scale of experience, as experienced floks will agree.

However, only two years ago I was faced with the same choice of training methods that you are.

I found that as far as money (and only money) goes the difference between the two methods is how much cash you need up front.
As I ssaw it, the advantage of AFF is that a student can learn a lot in a few jumps.
The advantage of static-line is that it's more gradual, and having to repeat an excersice doesn't cost as much money.

For me the perceived disadvantage of AFF (prior to even contacting the DZ) was not so much the money as the idea of in the same jump having to experience first freefall AND first canopy flight. Frankly, that prospect scared the hell out of me.
So I chose static-line. One step at a time, gradually learning to fly the canopy and working towards the freefall.
You on the other hand have already experienced freefall, and perhaps your tandem instructor even let you fly the canopy a bit, so you'll have different categories to base your choice on.

Coming back to your question about the money, after the first few jumps it all balances out. AFF is more expensive but the tradeoff is that you learn more in less time (you can learn a lot even from "failed" exercises, as your instructors will indubitably tell you). Static line is a lot cheaper per jump, but your slower progression means you'll have spent the same amount of money - but over a longer time period - before you attain the A-licence.

Good luck with your choice, which ultimately only YOU can make, and don't forget to have fun while working toward your licence.
I've said it many times, a licence is not the ultimate goal in skydiving - having fun is.

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[AllisonH 0]

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Static line is a lot cheaper per jump, but your slower progression means you'll have spent the same amount of money - but over a longer time period - before you attain the A-licence.

I hear this a lot, but I really haven't seen it to be true very often. You cannot get your A-license until you have at least 25 jumps. Add up the cost of 25 jumps through AFF and 25 jumps through Static Line. I'll bet there's a big difference. Will it take more than 25 jumps? Maybe - but that depends a lot more on you and your instructors than on which progression you choose.

I'm not going to get into the whole static line vs AFF thing - search and you'll find tons of threads on it. Both are good programs, both will get you to the same endpoint, which is better for YOU depends on your learning style and your local options.

[Baksteen 84]

I too keep the tone carefully neutral
I guess what that means is that an average student who completes everything in one go will have spent the same amount of money whether they would have done AFF or SL.

But people differ, and everyone will encounter a bottleneck at some point.
Still, it's difficult to say which method would have been cheaper, since with AFF there's two instrucotrs observing you right there and then --> a lot of feedback. So if it takes a given student three goes at an AFF level before passing it that may seem a lot of money - but he'd have to do all the excercises compressed in that one level with SL too - who knows how many jumps he'd need before passing that exercise... ten? fifteen? two?

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[skydived19006 4]

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I hear this a lot, but I really haven't seen it to be true very often. You cannot get your A-license until you have at least 25 jumps. Add up the cost of 25 jumps through AFF and 25 jumps through Static Line. I'll bet there's a big difference. Will it take more than 25 jumps? Maybe - but that depends a lot more on you and your instructors than on which progression you choose.

I suppose it depends on the DZ policy as to which is less expensive. At my DZ, you're a student until you have your A license. As such you'll jump with an Instructor, or possibly make a few with D licensed skydivers, so all 25 (minimum) are "student jumps." The argument that AFF is cheaper, or the same it seems assumes that after the seven AFF jumps, you're free to jump on your own to finish your progression. As GW would say it's "fuzzy math."

These days another option to speed your progression is to spend some time in a wind tunnel. Regardless of your training method, this is an excellent aid!!!

Martin

Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

[EAPD202 0]

Thanks for the replies, I still have not decided which way to go for my training but I have awhile to decide cause its gonna take me some time to save the cash not to mention its late in the year (Im in Illinois) so most DZ's around me probablly wont be open much longer anyway, although jumping during snow fall sounds cool as shit.

Part of why I asked for your opinions is cause cheaper is cheaper and im not made of money lol but also which way would make me a better skydiver, i can save the extra cash for AFF if its going to make me better trained.

Love this sport its a perfect activity for an adrinalin junkie like me lol and I cant wait to get back out there and start training.

[AllisonH 0]

By the time you have 30-50 jumps (or in some cases by the time you have 15 or 20 jumps) no one will know if you did static line or AFF. I changed DZ's halfway through my student program, and half of the coaches I did coach jumps with assumed I did AFF when I actually did static line.

[EAPD202 0]

AllisonH, thanks for the reply, I think im gonna save up for SL. I just found the forum search option and did some more reading and i think it will be the best option for me. It does not matter to me if it takes longer than AFF to get my license cause either way ill still be jumping and im quite sure training will be a blast so im in no hurry to speed the training along.

Thanks again guys

[Chubba 0]

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Part of why I asked for your opinions is cause cheaper is cheaper and im not made of money lol but also which way would make me a better skydiver, i can save the extra cash for AFF if its going to make me better trained.

Better trained is subjective.

I'm a new jumper so don't take my opinion strongly, but I believe canopy control is THE essential skill in skydiving.

Freefall skills are important obviously, but when it comes down to it, flying and landing your canopy safely is the most important skill and in 30 jumps I've had so many close calls on landing it's not funny... I'm glad I haven't busted myself yet.

I did AFF for my training but would have done static line in a heartbeat purely for the price:canopy control ratio.

[popsjumper 2]

So, for that $1000 difference in price, what do you get?

How many jumps?
How much canopy control time?
How much freefall time?
How much book knowledge time?

I don't buy into that S/L is more canopy time thing.
AFF Level 1 you pull at 5.5K. At what altitude is your canopy open in S/L training (DZ dependent, I'm sure).

The difference is how much you get to learn on one vs the other.
-S/L is nice in that, at first, you only have to learn about stable exits, pulling a ripcord and canopy control.
-AFF, you get all that AND freefall training right from the get-go.

Either way you go, do NOT let the Instrcutors get away with neglecting your book-knowledge learning.

AFF is no faster than S/L to get the license as far as jump nunbers. 25 jumps is 25 jumps either way.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[manseman 0]

I've just recently earned my A-license by completing an SL course in Sweden. I didn't have an easy time deciding between AFF or SL and actually finished most of my ground training before I finally made my mind up. The main reason I picked SL was that I really wanted to become self reliant quickly and also to get as much time in the sport and everything around it as possible before being let loose on my own. I get the feeling that around here, AFF is considered a superior method but I think that has a lot to do with the fact that most AFF students do complete the training and most SL students don't and perhaps not so much about the quailty of the skydivers the respective methods produce.

I guess another concern of mine was that I didn't know if I wanted to pursue this sport until I tried it and I felt that AFF would force me into a decision sooner than I wanted.

Having said that and knowing what I know now I'd pick AFF without thinking twice as that would have allowed me to actually jump for real most of the season instead of grinding through what felt like countless training jumps in student gear.

So I guess my point is that if you know what you want and one method is significantly faster than the other, then that's a decent argument for that method. Now, I don't know how things generally work in the US, but if you're required to do 25 jumps no matter which method to get off student status and you get the same attention from your instructors regardless then just forget this post. :)

[Baksteen 84]

People claiming that either method is superior to the other is a pet peeve of mine.
Both methods have distinct advantages and disadvantages compared to one another, and it depends on the student which is most suitable to their needs. A good instructor will be able to explain more clearly.

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Having said that and knowing what I know now I'd pick AFF without thinking twice as that would have allowed me to actually jump for real most of the season instead of grinding through what felt countless training jumps in student gear.

Gotta disagree with you there.
Every jump is "for real", mate.. Just that you are "cleared for solo status" got the "Holy A-Licence" or whatever doesn't mean you're done learning...

As to gear, with the SL-method you're free to buy your own gear once you've progressed to freefall (here that's at a minimum of six jumps) if you feel like it, right? This has got nothing to do with AFF vs. static line.

Also, in a country like the Netherlands, an AFF student MAY progress faster in the same amount of jumps actually MADE but on the other hand, if you start out late in the season (like I did) chances are that the AFF-ers are grounded while it's perfectly jumpable at 3500 so the SL'ers can grind on. (due to high uppers at 12k or an overcast at 6k f'r instance).

Just saying..

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[manseman 0]

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Gotta disagree with you there.
Every jump is "for real", mate.. Just that you are "cleared for solo status" got the "Holy A-Licence" or whatever doesn't mean you're done learning...

Oh, that's not quite what I meant. Student jumps are by all means real jumps, but you have to jump through more hoops to actually get in the air. The restrictions on max wind are harder, you have to find student gear that suits you (not always easy on a busy day) and you need to get hold of a JM who has time to brief, debrief and kick you out the door.

I've simply assumed that you're required to jump the DZ' student rigs during the entire course, maybe that's not true. There is however a big difference in wing load restrictions between students and a-license holders meaning that it's not really practical to buy a student size rig unless you want to keep jumping that even after getting your license.

[Baksteen 84]

Guess that's "cultural differences again..

Over here there's wind restrictions for the first five jumps (6 m/s) and then for the first 200 jumps (9 m/s) irregardless of licence.
You'll need a JM until you got your A, but as soon as you're done with your AFF levels or (for SL-students) freefalling, anyone with a B-licence can drop you.



I wasn't personally targeting you, by the way, your statement - or rather my interpretation thereof got me started.

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[jack79 0]

The long and the short of it is that there is nothing cheap about our sport. Be prepared to spend some cash.

[tbrown 26]

Depends on whether or not you need that extra $1000 to stay in the sport or not. As far as safety goes, both programs are just fine.

But last weekend I was talking to this really nice kid who had to give it up after his third AFF jump, because he simply couldn't afford to go on with the program. He said he absolutely loves skydiving and desperately wants to trained and get his A license, but has to wait until he can save up more money to do it and by then will probably have start all over again. And you know what ?? That really SUCKS.

I know skydiving's not cheap. It never has been and it's only getting worse. But it makes me sick that we're driving away motivated kids like this one because they simply can't afford it. And please don't tell me he can "get a job at the DZ". Maybe he can, but all those potential students we're driving away can't ALL get jobs at the DZ, unless we want somebody to kneel on all fours so we can sit or serve lunch on their backsides (as much as that might appeal to some jumpers that I know).

I'm getting less and less impressed with AFF with each passing year. AFF is a money mill that works just fine for upscale students who want to depend on their instructors to make the lifesaving decisions. They don't want to pack, or even understand how their gear works. And they learn from their first jump to be absolutely terrified of being in freefall below 5 grand. I won't say AFF doesn't have its advantages, but it's created a list of unintended consequences that nobody seems willing to even recognize, much less deal with.

And the biggest consequence is that it's needlessly restricting access to our sport to the very same rich fucks who are killing it at the same time.

Static line makes every jumper responsible for their own safety right from the very first jump, because they are on their own. If they won't save themselves, nobody else will. And yes, I have seen static line students perform sucessful cutaways on their first jump - on the old Capewell gear ! Static line and graduated levels of freefall teach new lessons a bit at a time, without the total sensory overload. And finally, even with today's higher pull altitudes for students, a static line student starts off feeling comfy with 3500 ft instead of shitting their drawers an inch below 5 grand.

Go for the static line program and be a REAL skydiver from the get-go.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[Skydivesg 7]

This topic has been and will be discussed and argued for many years.
Both methods have pluses and minuses.

I think tbbrown's post makes some valid points.

If you have the cash to go through AFF in a couple of back to back weekends then by all means it's a great program.

But if you are on a very tight budget and can only spend $100.00 - $150.00 per weekend then S/L is the way to go. You can still make 2-4 jumps and leave with a sense of accomplishment.

Very important: when you've spent your budget for the weekend don't just take off and go home. Stick around the DZ. Hang with people, network, make friends, help out in any way you can. Listen to people talk. Before long you'll realize who you want to be like. And you'll figure out from whom to take advice.

I believe the most important thing is to squeeze as many jumps in as possible, every weekend. Those that wait 2-3 weeks to muster up the cash are the ones we see dropping out.

In Iowa (and I'm sure Illinois) it's not uncommon to see two or three weekends in a row with low clouds but jumpable winds. I've seen S/L students get to 15-20 second freefalls before the AFF students even get to make their first jump. And by then the AFF student needs to get a refresher.

This post may sound like I'm against AFF. I'm not.
My son graduated AFF in two days, got his A license and attended a Scot Miller canopy course during the following week. And he paid for it all out of his $5,000 savings he earned packing since he was 10 years old.

I on the other hand learned S/L.
Some would say I turned out OK too.

Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

[Scrumpot 1]

AFF works just fine, so long as the other components mentioned (packing for oneself as ex) aren't also over-aggressively and egregiously CHARGED to the student to have to learn. Nobody ever charge me for packing lessons

I routinely step in and make sure I personally take time to go over spotting, canopy flight, equipment familiarity, packing, etc. (on & on - whatever it is that is needed) with anybody that ever wants it, at ANY time. It's called "giving back", and what goes around comes around.

Maybe THAT is what is becoming all too rare in the current environment, and somehow needs to be re - instilled into our community?

I don't think "giving back" is in any way, method specific.

FWIW, and JMHO.
Blues,
-Grant

coitus non circum - Moab Stone