Ron 10 #51 March 9, 2005 QuoteRon I am sorry but I am done here. I am not going to go back and waste my time to provide you with a post from the past. Why? I know what you have done and see you do it to other people. It will be much easier to point it out in the future. I see, so you say something you can't/will not back up? Easy way out....Go ahead, take it. QuoteNo, and I never said that. If you want to take this to pm that's fine. We have both had some very low reserve openings but what's your point? My point? Well some people ARE more qualified than others to pull lower. Those people might have more training, better equipment and more over all experience...But the BSR does not care. Bills BSR for WL, mine and about a dozen others say that you are free to jump what you want...AS LONG AS YOU PROVE YOU CAN HANDLE IT!!!! The only people I see not wanting this are people who can't walk the walk and are afraid they will be made to look foolish. Or the young ones that demand their "rights" even if they have not earned them."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
craddock 0 #52 March 9, 2005 In that context I highly support it. That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #53 March 9, 2005 QuoteI understand you have a different level of risk tolerance than most people. However, you can't move the industry standard over to where you prefer to be. But to be accurate, there is no industry standard now, other than some manufacturers trying to avoid selling certain models to jumpers at less than 500. All of these discussions are about recentering that standard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #54 March 9, 2005 QuoteRight now we have the luxury of not having 40 people a year die from low turns. In other words, we have time to figure out a solution. Once the number of people dying starts to skyrocket even more than it has now, people will scream "Do something! Anything! Even if it's wrong!" Better, I think, to do something right before we get to that point. Bill - why do you believe the skyrocketing of canopy deaths is a future event? It would appear we're in a plateau after a big spike upward, but it's less clear to me why we would spike even further. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #55 March 9, 2005 I think one of the problems here is you think you have a "Right" to skydive. No one has that "Right". It is a privilege extended to you and me by the people who run drop zones. A W/L regulation or for that matter one that would require an AAD or a helmet does not infringe upon your "Rights". They would take nothing away from. Now as a grown up adult you are free to choose to live by the rules or not, but since it is their drop zone they can set the rules. If mainstream skydiving comes up with some safety standards and convince the people who own the drop zones they are the way to go, what you or I think means squat. Live within the rules of a given society or not be a part of that society. As a free grown adult it is your choice. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
craddock 0 #56 March 9, 2005 QuoteLive within the rules of a given society or not be a part of that society Do you feel the same way with your political views? Do you vote? Do you condemm political running mates when they debate? Should they not just live within the rules of a given society or not be a part of that society? Sad That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,989 #57 March 9, 2005 >Bill - why do you believe the skyrocketing of canopy deaths is a future event? Because I see newer and newer jumpers getting on smaller and smaller canopies. The sport is growing, and that segment of the sport (very new, clueless male jumpers who want small canopies) is growing faster than any other segment. And now it's becoming OK to do that - I hear even AFF-I's recommending new jumpers buy 1.1 to 1 loaded canopies as their first canopy because "you won't learn on anything larger." So the only way we _won't_ see a spike upwards is with better training. Some of that is happening anyway, via people like Scott Miller, JC, Brian Germain etc. But since those people can't be everywhere, they will have only a limited effect in damping the next spike. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #58 March 10, 2005 QuoteQuoteLive within the rules of a given society or not be a part of that society Do you feel the same way with your political views? Do you vote? Do you condemm political running mates when they debate? Should they not just live within the rules of a given society or not be a part of that society? Sad People who run for elected office tend to live within the rules of the society they live in, in case you haven't noticed. Yes, I do vote and my political views are not the topic of discussion here. Again in case you haven't noticed. And Yes, sad people will argue something as simple as this is.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
craddock 0 #59 March 10, 2005 >People who run for elected office tend to live within the rules of the society they live in, in case you haven't noticed. LOL That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #60 March 10, 2005 Quote>People who run for elected office tend to live within the rules of the society they live in, in case you haven't noticed. LOL You never answered the question when I asked it before. Just what is your point? This started out about a young man who hooked in under a H/P canopy and now you are asking if I vote. Is this leading anywhere or do you just like to argue?My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #61 March 10, 2005 QuoteYou never answered the question when I asked it before. Just what is your point? This started out about a young man who hooked in under a H/P canopy and now you are asking if I vote. Is this leading anywhere or do you just like to argue? Do not expect an answer sir."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
craddock 0 #62 March 10, 2005 There are two people on this board that I avoid responding because of their immature behavior and personal attacks. You are one of them. Feel free to be insulted when I do not respond to your posts. I also don't have time to draw a picture for people with lack of comprehension so I don't respond to those posts as well But since I started I asked because you told me to just sit back and live within the rules. I am not that type of person. I vote, I attend town meetings, sometimes trying to vote down stuff, other times trying to get items on the table. You can live your life a follower if you want. But who are you to tell me to sit back and live within the rules yet others are allowed to make/change them? If a dz won't let me jump because of my wingloading, fine- that's their right. But the USPA has been against WL restrictions for years, do you attack them in the way you have attacked me in the past? If you can't understand my points they were just not meant for you. Again feel free to be insulted when I don't explain them . I just don't care When someone on a large canopy tries to get back from a long spot and turns low to their death we talk about education. When someone with a slightly smaller canopy does the same thing , certain people jump back and place blame on the canopy. They try and claim it would not have happened on a larger canopy which is really speculation. As I have said I am all more education. A W/L restriction should be the last step, not the first. That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
craddock 0 #63 March 10, 2005 See above That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #64 March 10, 2005 QuoteThere are two people on this board that I avoid responding because of their immature behavior and personal attacks. Pot...this is kettle calling. You say that then you insult...You kill me QuoteFeel free to be insulted when I do not respond to your posts. I also don't have time to draw a picture for people with lack of comprehension so I don't respond to those posts as well Quote You can live your life a follower if you want. I don't see Sparky or me being a follower...You just don't agree with us so you think we are. You are the follower here. You want to maintain the current trend of nothing being done....Not Sparks and myself. QuoteIf you can't understand my points they were just not meant for your comprehension And again you start insulting...Wow...You amaze me. You love to argue with people with TONS more experience than you. Notice how folks in the sport for years with MUCH more experience than you don't agree with you? Feel free to not respond....Your posts are just filled with insults"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
craddock 0 #65 March 10, 2005 I have asked you to take this to PM. If want us to act like children, let's do it off these boards. I will be happy to respond. I will not however go through years of post to show you everytime you have been hypocritical like you have asked me to. My goal is not to try and change you Ron. It is about safety and training. Sorry you are not so high on my list. My next response will be PM'd That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #66 March 10, 2005 http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1524305#1524305"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,989 #67 March 10, 2005 > There are two people on this board that I avoid responding because >of their immature behavior and personal attacks. You are one of them. It is good advice to not respond to people who get you mad; however, you seem to not be taking your own advice. Please don't call people immature. PM's (or better yet, no response at all) is a better way to handle people you feel are being immature. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #68 March 10, 2005 QuoteThere are two people on this board that I avoid responding because of their immature behavior and personal attacks. I take this as a personal attack. But not to worry, I can live with it. Quote asked because you told me to just sit back and live within the rules. I am not that type of person. Where did I tell you to do anything? I tried to explain to you how it works in the real world. You are free to do as you please. QuoteAs I have said I am all more education. A W/L restriction should be the last step, not the first. This is the first time you have stated your point. I consider myself neither a leader nor a follower. But I am someone how has survived in this sport for almost 30 years by learning from the mistakes of others. Why don't you call me back when you have managed to survive for half that time? In the mean time, safe swooping.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cloudi 0 #69 March 11, 2005 Can someone please explain to me when parachutes stopped being "life saving devices" and became "ego inflating devices"??!! When did the emphasis go from how well someone can control their parachute while squeezing every ounce of performance out of it, to rushing through the downsizing process to see how fast they can aim themselves at the ground/trees/people/? Why, in such an unforgiving sport as skydiving, are so many people willing to "walk" before they've even learned to "crawl"? What's the hurry? Who's rushing them? Some people truly do need to be saved from themselves because they simply can't see common sense that glows like a neon sign to everyone else. I'm all for learning as much as you can before progressing to another level (some would call this conservative, but I call it common sense). I'm also all for those who are "naturals," who pick up on things quicker than most others, and who progress more quickly than others (which means not limiting progression to jump numbers). To each their own how far they want to go in the sport and how quickly they want to do it, but it does become EVERYONE'S business when people continually pound themselves in under functioning canopies that they simply couldn't handle in a less than perfect situation. What's the difference between gaining the skills to complete certain tasks to the satisfaction of an instructor to be signed off for each license and being signed off in canopy progression? They are only asking you to show your skills before you move onto more complicated maneuvers. What is so "freedom restricting" about that? There are so many things to enjoy in our sport. It's a shame to see so many otherwise intelligent people taking shortcuts with their lives. And let's not forget anyone who has the misfortune of becoming one of those "obstacles" this "hot shot" hasn't learned how to avoid as he/she rushed through their progression (hence the reason it becomes an issue to everyone who skydives, not just the one who has a divet waiting for them with their name on it). Of course, all the training, education, and experience in the world can't always save us from the "shit happens" factor, but what's wrong with preparing ourselves to respond appropriately to it? Sometimes shit happens and if you are prepared for it, you might just live through it. That's my rant... It was long. Not directed at anyone. Just an opinion from someone with 200+ jumps who looks forward to sticking around for at least 10,000 more. Nothing more, nothing less. Kim Watch as I attempt, with no slight of hand, to apply logic and reason. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chrisgr 0 #70 March 11, 2005 Great post. Quote There are so many things to enjoy in our sport. It's a shame to see so many otherwise intelligent people taking shortcuts with their lives. Perhaps they're not that intelligent. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #71 March 11, 2005 QuoteGreat post. Quote There are so many things to enjoy in our sport. It's a shame to see so many otherwise intelligent people taking shortcuts with their lives. Perhaps they're not that intelligent. I think you may have hit on something here. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
