Couch Freaks Big Way

[4chewnate 0]

I wasn't able to go to the Couch Freak boogie but I'm really interested in the big way stuff because some day I would like to be on one.

I understand that it did not complete.

Could someone explain a little more about the big ways at this boogie. How did they choose the people? Do you just show up and tell them that you're interested or do they have to know you before hand? Or maybe try outs?
Who was in charge?

Also, is three tries enough? Don't they usually do more?
It just seems like three is'nt that many, but I'm new to this.

Thanks

[gemini 0]

Jumpers who were interested in the big way registered on http://www.bigways.com.

There were some jumpers who just showed up, but they were known by the organizers who were Tom Schroder, Mandy Schaeffer and Larry Clapp from Dallas.

Some of the criteria the organizers used were total number of jumps, jumps in last 6 months, number of big ways, largest big way, big way camp experience, recommendations by a nationally known captain, and known by one of the organizers.

Most big ways will have 12-16 attempts over a 3 to 4 day period.

Since this event was held during a boogie, there may have been a limitations the organizers had to work around.

Usually if you just show up at a big way you will sit and watch a lot and probably never get to jump with the formation.

Blue skies,

Jim

[4chewnate 0]

If the organizers had such strict criteria to get on the list, why wasnt' it successful? What kind of problems do you usually have on these?

More specifically, what problems did you guys have at the Couch Freak big way? (I'm assuming you were on it)

Also would you say that trying to set a state record at a boogie is not a good idea? Unless they do a lot more jumps?

I see that the Iowa record is a 60 way. Some one told me that they did a 60 way at that boogie a few years ago (before my time) and only did a few jumps. If that's true why would it work one year and not others?

Sorry for all the questions but I really want to get on some of these big ways someday.

I was on a couple of very succesful 20 ways at Summerfest this year and they were very cool. I want to do bigger things.

[gemini 0]

The criteria is not that strict and is very similar on all big way jumps.

First of all, I was not there, However, I worked for the organizers on the registration and have worked with other big way organizers si I kinda' know the procedure.

What could have gone wrong? How much time do you have?

Weather is the number one problem with clouds running a close second. You may be able to safely put a 20-way between clouds that you could never put a 60-100 way through. Safety is extremely important on big ways.

Think of what could go wrong to keep a 4-way or 8-way from successfully completing. Now multiply that by a factor of 10 to 15.

Big Ways get geometrically harder the bigger they get. Kate Cooper-Jensen told me before the 2006 TSR 150-way attempt that it would be 50% harder than the 125-way that completed in 2004.

Personally I do not like trying to set records at boogies. First of all, there is a lot of commotion and distractions for the big way jumpers. Second, there is a lot of additional problems for the organizers that cannot be controlled.

In 2007 we set a new POPS record in Illinois on the third attempt. In March 2008, we set a new POPS record in the 5th or 6th attempt, then barely got the POPS WR on the last attempt.

Basically the same core group of jumpers and same captains. Why the difference?

The mixture of people, slotting and dive planning, plane formation, altitude, heat, etc. You name it and it can be a problem on a big way.

Throw on top of that jumpers going to fast, to slow, wrong grips, getting lost in the formation, lack of concentration, vision not wide enough, not watching the center, and on and on.

20-ways are fun and give you a good feel for a big way since about 20 people is all you normally see anyway. But a 60-way is substantially more difficult because of all the additional factors created by jumping a formation load.

If you really are serious about attempting big ways, you need to get to a big way camp. Perris will probably be opening registration for their May camps soon.

Blue skies,

Jim

[4chewnate 0]

I can understand that weather can be an issue but from what a friend told me, it sounds like the weather during the big way jumps was perfect. He of course was only watching from the ground.

Your analogy using the 4 and 8 way doesn't really make sense to me. I've heard that only very good and qualified jumpers are invited on the big ways. I would think that they should be the cream of the crop. I've heard that the boogie had over 500 jumpers. If they used the best of the best shouldn't it have a better shot at success.

Don't get me wrong, I really appreciate your insight but with all the people reading this thread someone must have been on that big way that has some first hand information.

Come on people tell me something so I can learn before going to one of those camps.

BTW I don't think I have enough jumps to do one of those camps yet. How many jumps do you need?

[AllisonH 0]

You need 250 jumps to go to the bigway camps at Perris. They start you off learning/practicing bigway techniques with 20-30 person formations, then build them up a little bigger as the camp goes on.

[gemini 0]

Sorry, I didn't mean to confuse you with the 4/8-way anology. It's just that the difficulty in completing goes up everytime you add a jumper to a formation. It takes more time to complete and more things can go wrong when formations get larger.

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I've heard that the boogie had over 500 jumpers. If they used the best of the best shouldn't it have a better shot at success.

Unfortunately, most jumpers at boogies are not the best of the best in freefall, although they may be the best of the best at partying!

I think the organizers brought in 50 or so jumpers and then picked up around 10 from the boogie. With a group like this you probably need a lot more than 3 jumps to begin to pull it all together.

Blue skies,

Jim

[kallend 2,106]

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I wasn't able to go to the Couch Freak boogie but I'm really interested in the big way stuff because some day I would like to be on one.

I understand that it did not complete.

Could someone explain a little more about the big ways at this boogie. How did they choose the people? Do you just show up and tell them that you're interested or do they have to know you before hand? Or maybe try outs?
Who was in charge?

Also, is three tries enough? Don't they usually do more?
It just seems like three is'nt that many, but I'm new to this.

Thanks

I was there, outside whacker, didn't get to touch anything.

I **think** the problem was last minute recruiting of people who really didn't have the necessary skill set for a 66 way, in order to make up the numbers. That meant, in turn, that slots couldn't be assigned until the last minute. In no case did the center build cleanly, and in 2 of 3 jumps someone took out the base.

Tom, Larry and Mandy did a good job, but simply didn't have the talent to work with.

Three jumps isn't enough to resolve fall rate and traffic issues, either.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rehmwa 2]

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I was there, outside whacker, didn't get to touch anything.

I **think** the problem was last minute recruiting of people who really didn't have the necessary skill set for a 66 way, in order to make up the numbers. That meant, in turn, that slots couldn't be assigned until the last minute. In no case did the center build cleanly, and in 2 of 3 jumps someone took out the base.

Tom, Larry and Mandy did a good job, but simply didn't have the talent to work with.

Three jumps isn't enough to resolve fall rate and traffic issues, either.

Pretty much line for line my response. With a couple exceptions. (Super nice to meet you too, Prof)

The people that kept taking out the base, I believe, were on the invite from the start. They were all pretty much very 'round' built people (one exception) and this wasn't a very fast group (especially the 1st attempt). In other words, they couldn't have been moved to the wackers.

I only know 4 people that were recruited on site (there were more), and each of them was lurking their slots just like you and me and doing their jobs.

I think the real issue is when people don't cut themselves when clearly they aren't able to even dock cleanly or keep from reaching. It's a sport of egos.


It was organized REALLY well. Mandy is really sweet, and I like seeing Larry every year. Tom had to take the public slot and did great.

Taking people's money is a BAD idea if they drop off. Refund if someone takes themselves off due to mistakes or incompatibility. If they are a no show - keep the money, if they argue and HAVE to be cut because they can't recognize they should take themselves off - keep the money.

I just saw a LOT of very elementary mistakes in the first docking ring, and then some kind of flying squirrel suit take out an entire wing of the formation on the second load that was build very nicely.


The organizers asked for people to specifically do several things.

don't rush
don't reach
don't dock without momentum
don't grab at the formation if you are going to miss
alway do a left hand straight in pattern


Every single dive, several people violated each of these rules - the canopy time really pissed me off with always 10 or 12 people just flying kitty corner straight over the airport instead of joining the pattern.

There were a TON of very good skydivers on it. I'd have rather seen a more vigorous axe and maybe just a bigway that's not a record, rather than sitting there watching people do some pretty goofy things.

I had a lot of fun tracking after each dive.

I don't think we'd have built it with the stuff I was seeing, but sometimes it happens anyway.



The 60 way a few years ago - we built it at the boogie on the 3rd try. I think it was built by 9000 feet. When they build, it's really nice and fast.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Butters 0]

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I had a lot of fun tracking after each dive.

You should have joined the 30-way tracking dive. I'm sure it looked similar from the ground ... Sorry it didn't work out for you and everyone else.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[4chewnate 0]

OK I'm getting some good information here. Thanks.

It sounds like I should not try to do a big way at a boogie because the talent just isn't there.

Although you guys said that the organizers brought in 50 people and only had to fill 16 slots. I would think you should be able to find 16 capable people at a boogie of 500, but what do I know.

Two of you say that 3 jumps is just not enough especially at a boogie. But that you did a 60 way in 3 jumps a few years ago. Is that just dumb luck?

If you have the same organizers (assuming they were the same) and mostly the same people it seems that 66 should be doable.

What am I missing here? Or like I said was the last 60 way just a fluke?

Like Jim said, I have heard that the boogie is more about the party and less about good skydives. Personally I like to do both. I can't wait to go next year.

Jim, I'll check into the camps.

[deadbug 0]

Bills post is spot on. Bill and I were in the wacker from the right trail plane and on the first jump our entire wacker built cleanly and without tension in the grips. Unfortunetly as Bill said the base was taken out on every attempt by poor flying and over agressive docking. On attempt 2 and 3 there was nothing solid in front of us to dock on so we just lurked our slots and waited for the base to rebuild. I think there should have been some agressive axe swinging, unfortunetly although there was some very talented and capable bellyflyers at Couch that would have been great replacements, most chose not to get involved because they have been on many Couch bigways in the past that were a zoo and I think they felt this would be just more of the same. There was deffinetly 66 capable people at couch that could have built that formation, they just were not all on the skydive.

[rehmwa 2]

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It sounds like I should not try to do a big way at a boogie because the talent just isn't there.

It really depends on the organizers and how well they know all the participants. It's not a 'boogie' thing, it's a talent and time thing.

If you have 285 jumps over 3 years, I'd consider holding off of larger formation loads (I wouldn't call 60 ways a 'big way', but a serious formation load dive) until you get more experience. But I don't know - you might be a phenom, but it doesn't math out to me. Start with good organizers and see how you progress.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[skyjumpenfool 2]

Bill,
Any chance you might coach some big way camps next summer?? It would be fun even if we kept the formations smaller to accomodate one otter. Participants would be "invited" to next years Couch Big Way based on skill.

Sometimes formation success is directly proportional to quality training and recruiting.

You know me, "always looking to learn something new"!

Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

[rehmwa 2]

Mike - I'm not qualified - I'm the 4-way guy, remember? Especially when we have people like Mary and Bob around. They are the best big way people in the area and that's where you'd start.

As far as the occasional 20 way out of the Otter next year? I'm happy to organize a few. So are a few of the others around too.

And we always do basic skills and mantis camps - much of which translates, but not all of it.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[4chewnate 0]

I'm not really planning on trying to get on anything that size yet, although I was told by an organizer at Summerfest that he was impressed with my swooping skills and discipline. His name escapes me but he was from Iowa. Probably on the big way at Couch.

You brought up something I was wondering about.
If all the organizers were from Texas, and not really familiar with the locals that attend that boogie, how would they know whether people have the skills and how would they know where best to slot everybody?
Is it just by what people tell them during the registration process? Also does that big way site keep track of how well people did at events so organizers can read reviews about potential participants? If so that would be handy.

And you haven't answered my question about why they could do a 60 way a few years ago. Was that just a fluke?

[flyangel2 2]

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And you haven't answered my question about why they could do a 60 way a few years ago. Was that just a fluke?

Because, all 60 people were jumping at a 100% that day.

Think about it, do you preform at a 100% on every skydive you make? Do you preform perfect on all your skydives and never make a mistake.

Take 60 people and put them together, they all have to preform perfect. Some days they do, some days they don't. That's why most times it takes more then three jumps to build a bigger way.

May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

[flyangel2 2]

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Mike - I'm not qualified - I'm the 4-way guy, remember? Especially when we have people like Mary and Bob around. They are the best big way people in the area and that's where you'd start.

I think you might mean Mandy

I know I'm damn good, but I can't take credit away from sweet little Mandy, or she'll kick my ass!

May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

[skyjumpenfool 2]

Maybe my point wasn’t clear in my last post. We have several really good organizers and a few that could really bring out the talent in this community. (By the way Bill, like it or not, you're one of them.)

My point was; to complete a big way anywhere, there needs to be an organized progression of talent. For my money, training and experience are the best way to accomplish this. What I think would be great is, several smaller training camps. Each designed to develop skills and identify talent with and end result of completing a specific big way.


What we really need are “organizer/trainers. It’s one thing to organize something. And don’t get me wrong, just that’s a huge chore. It’s a whole different animal to organize an event that requires training to complete.

The old saying, “you have to plan for success”, isn’t entirely correct. I think for any group to complete a 66 way formation, you’ll need to plan & practice for success.

I’d love to participate in next year’s attempt. But , I’m brutally aware that I for one would need training and practice along with some experienced and qualified coaching. This is where you experienced “sky gods” step up… hint, hint!

Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

[kallend 2,106]

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I'm not really planning on trying to get on anything that size yet, although I was told by an organizer at Summerfest that he was impressed with my swooping skills and discipline. His name escapes me but he was from Iowa. Probably on the big way at Couch.

Probably Sandy. If so, he wasn't on the 66 way.

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You brought up something I was wondering about.
If all the organizers were from Texas, and not really familiar with the locals that attend that boogie, how would they know whether people have the skills and how would they know where best to slot everybody?
Is it just by what people tell them during the registration process? Also does that big way site keep track of how well people did at events so organizers can read reviews about potential participants? If so that would be handy.

There is some such information for organizers on bigways.com. The POPS record series (regional and world) has started keeping a fairly detailed database.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[gavi_omen 0]

I think he was referring to Mary Bauer and Bob Stumm. Although, if I remember correctly, Mary did not participate in the 66-way. Probably because she didn't think it would complete.

There's no such thing as free will; everything is dictated by the Uncertainty Principle.

[JustChuteMeNow 0]

Sandy would have done a great job of organizing the big way and he does know the local talent but he was load organizing Saturday since the other organizers were doing the bigway.

Think of how stupid the average person is and realize that statistically half of them are stupider than that.

[4chewnate 0]

Yeah that's his name. Sandy.

I did some really nice jumps with him at Skydive Chicago. He did more than just figure out the dive. It was more like getting coaching. I was a bit surprised he let me jump with him because he was organizing the higher time group. There were other organizers for the lower time jumpers.
I guess it's becasue I was in the hangar early one morning and he asked if I wanted to do a 4 way on the first load.

It was a good jump and I did pretty good. He just kept taking my ticket as the group got bigger. But as I said he did a lot of coaching me on what he wanted me to do. Most of the time I did ok and on the times I was less than stellar he just took me aside and told how to correct my flying and it seemed to work.

I can't believe he wasn't on the big way.

[wildfan75 1]

Mary and Bob are the perfect place to start in the MN/WI area. I am headed to Perris on Wednesday for the P3 Big Way camp. I will share everything and anything with everyone and anything when I get back. I [heart] MB!!!!!!!!!

[wildfan75 1]

Oh shit....I totally missed an opportunity for a shamless plug about Wissota....


Bob and Mary...only availabel tat Skydive Wissota in Chippewa Falls, WI. Open all year round. If its your first time here don't forget to bring your beer bitches!!!!!!!!