Another Legal Question - Neighbor McNasty

[kkeenan 14]

I jumped at a nice DZ recently, and heard a story about their unfriendly neighbor. Seems that the guy has property adjacent to the landing area of the DZ. He objected to landings on his property, and even to jumpers running out a landing and crossing the property line. He then erected a fence on the property line. This fence had steel poles and is topped with barbed wire - clearly intended to injure anyone who tries to climb it. It is pretty clear, also, that if someone hits this fence in the course of a parachute landing, they are going to be injured.

My question is: What sort of liability is Neighbor McNasty setting himself up for ? Isn't this like wiring a shotgun to your door to kill a burgler, or putting steel stakes in your shrubs to discourage teenagers from driving over them ? If someone is injured by your "safeguards", isn't that the same as setting a deadly trap for them ?

Kevin K.

_____________________________________
Dude, you are so awesome...
Can I be on your ash jump ?

[airdvr 210]

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I jumped at a nice DZ recently, and heard a story about their unfriendly neighbor. Seems that the guy has property adjacent to the landing area of the DZ. He objected to landings on his property, and even to jumpers running out a landing and crossing the property line. He then erected a fence on the property line. This fence had steel poles and is topped with barbed wire - clearly intended to injure anyone who tries to climb it. It is pretty clear, also, that if someone hits this fence in the course of a parachute landing, they are going to be injured.

My question is: What sort of liability is Neighbor McNasty setting himself up for ? Isn't this like wiring a shotgun to your door to kill a burgler, or putting steel stakes in your shrubs to discourage teenagers from driving over them ? If someone is injured by your "safeguards", isn't that the same as setting a deadly trap for them ?

Kevin K.

His property...he can do as he pleases so long as it isn't blatantly intended to injure. I don't think this qualifies.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[kelpdiver 2]

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His property...he can do as he pleases so long as it isn't blatantly intended to injure. I don't think this qualifies.

Seems pretty blatant, but I could see wide variance depending on the judge and jury. The fence by itself, or a barb wired fence by itself look better than fence with barb wire on top.

Ignoring the morality, it's a foolish move on his part, and one his insurance company would not be happy to hear about.

[hackish 8]

The answer to your question is of course jurisdiction dependant. Where I am I can't put up barbed wire around my performance shop to keep the thieves out because they could sue if they get injured and so could any member of the general public.

A lot of times something like that would be covered in the question of whether the person ought to know that the barbed wire they put up is intended to injure. It may be worthwhile to have a conversation with the DZ's lawyer and see if anything should be done before someone is hurt - for example send a letter asking him to remove the barbed wire because you believe it could injure a skydiver. That sort of thing is sometimes very useful in showing that someone was warned about the potential problem of something they did.

I'm no lawyer so go ask one :)

-Michael

[Andy9o8 2]

It's really sad when relations between a DZ and its next-door neighbor degrade to this point.

NOTE: THIS IS NOT LEGAL ADVICE.

If the neighbor were my client, I'd probably tell him something like this:
There is no single correct answer; but - on balance - I'd think it's OK to keep the fence where it is, but you're better off removing the barbed wire from it. Here's why: Yes, you have the right to fence-in your property against trespassers, and to deter potential fence-climbers with barbed wire. And it's not as blatant a deliberate trap like a shotgun against the door or spikes in the bushes. But still, you are well aware that skydivers might accidentally land on the fence, and you certainly understand that if a skydiver lands on the barbed wire, he could get hurt badly. If that happens and you get sued, the case probably won't be thrown out, so either your insurance company will settle it or you'll go to trial. Some jurors may be sympathetic to you; but some others, even if they're basically conservative, may conclude that you were mean-spirited and trying to deliberately hurt somebody, and hand down a verdict designed to punish you for it.

Oh, P.S.: I'd probably advise him not to get legal advice from non-lawyers.

[mrbiceps 0]

The guy does sound like a moron. In australia both neighbours have to pay 50/50 for a fence and i think that they can discuss the fence type. I am surprised that the dz cant go to court and try and have it changed and get the barb wire taken down. You would think any reasonable judge would allow this.

[kelpdiver 2]

in the US one could specialize in fence law.

definitely a case where being good neighbors is the preferred strategy.

If the jumpers start carrying cutters, he'll add dogs next. Big, mean dogs.

[anthonyfellows 0]

What state were you in? This sounds much like my drop zone :)

Serious relationships turn into work after a few weeks and I already got a fucking job :)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
H.A.F. = Hard As Fuck ... Goddamn Amateurs

[mjosparky 4]

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The guy does sound like a moron.

I doubt that this guy just woke up one morning and decided to be a moron. In most cases I have seen when relations between a dz and their neighbors break down it is because of the jumpers being assholes. The actions of one or two jumpers can cause a split that can take years to mend.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[JerryBaumchen 1,362]

Hi sparky,

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I doubt that this guy just woke up one morning and decided to be a moron. In most cases I have seen when relations between a dz and their neighbors break down it is because of the jumpers being assholes. The actions of one or two jumpers can cause a split that can take years to mend.

Amen to that. I jumped at a dz that had to close because of some non-local jumpers who landed off and when the local farmed inquired about their landing in his crops, they threatented to kick the s*** out of him, along with some other threats.

The farmer informally organized the other farmers, after a few years it went to the county commissioners and they revoked the dz's land use permit or whatever they had originally granted for the dz to be there.

It only takes one smart-mouthed jumper to ruin years of goodwill.

JerryBaumchen

[bloody_trauma 2]

well... is the barbed wire really a necessity for him, does he have high dollar equipment that he needs to protect... has he been burgalarized in the past...

still though, its his property and he can do what ever he pleases...

Fly it like you stole it

[mjosparky 4]

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well... is the barbed wire really a necessity for him,

Evidently he thinks it is. Now who do you think made him feel he needed to spend the money and time to put it up? Like I said, I have never seen a “Farmer McNasty” that was not created by the very people who complain about him. I am willing to bet it was not an over night knee jerk reaction on his part. It probably took some time before he felt the need to act.

Has anyone approached this guy and in a clam manner tried to work out something?

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[popsjumper 2]

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Has anyone approached this guy and in a clam manner tried to work out something?

We tried but he doesn't like seafood.
(you knew it was coming, right?)

IMHO, there's not much you can do about the barbed wire fence. Even if you worked things out nicely with the guy he's unlikely to blow off all that money spent building it.

The best you can do is to just not give him a reason to complain. Honorable, yes. Practical, no. These types of people will find a reason to complain whether there is a real one or not.

Look at it from his point of view...He doesn't want people on his property. Period. And he has every right to that in a normal situation. Emergency landing needs do not register with him. He could not care less about that. Every time you land on his property is nothing more than poking him with a stick.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[stratostar 5]

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Has anyone approached this guy and in a clam manner tried to work out something?

If it's the one in Greensburg In. the OP is talking about, then yes he is a knee jerk kind of guy, it would seem. A few times jumpers have landed there or followed a cutaway on to his property and were met with a shotgun in the face and he called the cops. I know Bob has tried to make nice over the years and talk to the guy, his reply was to combine a big FUCK YOU in his field.

Now it could be he just don't like Bob or someone other then Bob should have tried to talk to him, but my best guess is Bob was doing his wife and daughter when they would come to DZ parties and then selling the videos on the porn network and the local video store and farmer Mcnasty rented a copy and found out Bob was pimping them out, thats where Bob made all his money.......Farm Girl Porno's

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[Fast 0]

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well... is the barbed wire really a necessity for him,

Evidently he thinks it is. Now who do you think made him feel he needed to spend the money and time to put it up? Like I said, I have never seen a “Farmer McNasty” that was not created by the very people who complain about him. I am willing to bet it was not an over night knee jerk reaction on his part. It probably took some time before he felt the need to act.

Has anyone approached this guy and in a clam manner tried to work out something?

Sparky

Yes, people have approached him. It's not the jumpers faults. We know why he is all pissed off but I can't comment on it in an open forum. It primarily has to do with issues with the guys personal life making him a grumpy dude. We didn't really even land on his property that often. Couple times a month which isn't bad considering he is right next to our landing area. A couple of times since I have been jumping an ambulance had to use his driveway.

The airport and dropzone both existed before he moved in.

FWIW, we could probably go to court to try and have the fence taken down but that costs money, something we don't really have.

What we have done is taken steps to try and keep people from being hurt. Limited who is allowed to land in the area near the fence and ensuring that visitors are properly warned.

The guy has a lot of problems and he is taking it out on everyone around him. He calls the cops about all kinds of crazy stuff, really just sucks.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[mjosparky 4]

Star & Pop,

I stand corrected. It’s just that jumpers spend so much time being their worst enemy it seemed like the most likely scenario. Maybe someone should wait until dark, low crawl in and whack his ass.
Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[JohnRich 4]

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FWIW, we could probably go to court to try and have the fence taken down but that costs money, something we don't really have.
What we have done is taken steps to try and keep people from being hurt. Limited who is allowed to land in the area near the fence and ensuring that visitors are properly warned.

Here's an idea that just popped into my head.

Build your own fence, on your side of the property line, right up against McNasty's barbed wire fence. Make yours out of chain-link, or something more forgiving to skydivers. That way, if a landing jumper ends up heading towards McNasty's yard, they'll bounce off the springy chain-link instead of getting sliced and diced in barbed wire. Build it with volunteer labor. And let McNasty know in advance that you're going to do it, in the name of safety.

[grimmie 186]

I'm sure a call to his insurance company would have the fence taken down. Unless he has a very good reason for needing barbed wire, he has created a hazard to skydivers. One lawsuit by an injured jumper would be all it would take to wipe him and his insurance company out.

[stratostar 5]

Bob emailed me to let me know that in fact Farmer McNasty didn't find the videos of his wife & daughter in the video store.......Bob mailed him the Christmas collection and a 10% off coupon for farm girls gone city video's, he said he was only trying to make nice.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[Andy9o8 2]

Fast: FWIW, we could probably go to court to try and have the fence taken down but that costs money, something we don't really have.

Has a lawyer advised you that you stand much chance of success? If so, I'll defer to him/her; but, based on my own training and experience, I'd handicap it at about an 80% chance you'd lose, and advise you not to waste the money.

Grimmie: I'm sure a call to his insurance company would have the fence taken down.

With all due respect, I'm considerably less sure - and part of my career has been as in-house counsel for insurance companies.

[diablopilot 2]

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Star & Pop,

I stand corrected. It’s just that jumpers spend so much time being their worst enemy it seemed like the most likely scenario. Maybe someone should wait until dark, low crawl in and whack his ass.
Sparky

I knew there was some reason I liked you.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[happythoughts 0]

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Has anyone approached this guy and in a clam manner tried to work out something?

In Zhills, we have a tense understanding. He isn't fond of jumpers, but was approached by an old-school local and chatted with.

If someone has to come onto his property to get a chopped main, we will call first.

If someone lands there, we will use the gate.

Other than that, he still hates us, but it is a workable solution.

[nitrochute 2]

maybe if you invite neighbor mc nasty to some of the after hours activities he mite loosen up?LOL

[skittles_of_SDC 0]

farm girls? porn? that sounds like my kind of dz.
But seriously he wont even sit down to talk with you guys about it? that just sounds like hes actively trying to be a jerk.

[hackish 8]

If you think about it that's a tough situation. If you chop your main and it lands on someone elses property but they won't allow you permission to recover it what CAN you do? Many people would probably just trespass and get their main.

Take it a step further - what if Mr. McNasty goes and retrieves your main with a pair of scissors in hand? $1000 is a lot of money to lose.

Don't you owe beer for landing out anyway? Maybe the beer should go to Mc. Nasty.

-Michael