re: low turns.

[superman0710 0]

NOOB QUESTION AHEAD

i read about inexperienced jumpers pulling low turns leading to fatalities.

what is it about the low turns that makes it so dangerous?

does the pilot lose control of the canopy at such a low altitude?

does it mean they turn into obstacles?


i'm a noob

[TALONSKY 0]

When a canopy is in a turn it is diving (unless a flat turn is done), this means that the canopy and pilot are accelerating toward the ground. Along with that when a turn is started pilot is pivoted behind the canopy as it starts the dive then the pilot is pivoted back under the canopy as the turn is completed. These two things combined together to accelate the pilot into the ground if the turn is done too low to recover from before impact.
Kirk

[LawnDart21 0]

The speeds of impact in these types of turns can be the equivalent (or greater) than that of a car accident. Image getting into a car wreck without a car.

Another issue is once the trun is started, there is little the pilot can due to correct it. The canopy must plane out of the turn (return to level flight) before it can be slowed down. Unfortuanetly in these instances, the jumper impacts the ground before the canopy returns to level flight, thus nothing can be done to reduce the impact.

Somberly, I hope that helps.

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

[TALONSKY 0]

Another factor to keep in mind is depending on the type of canopy used a pilot can be totally horizontal to the ground in less than 180° turn.
Kirk

[FrogNog 1]

And when the jumper is not straight up and down, the first part of their body to touch the hard ground might not be their feet, or their legs, it might be something higher up that is full of more important organs.

-=-=-=-=-
Pull.

[billvon 2,991]

>what is it about the low turns that makes it so dangerous?

When a canopy is turned hard with a toggle, it turns and then dives at the ground for a few seconds. The smaller the canopy the faster it dives. If you hit the ground while the canopy is diving you can be injured or killed. There are several ways to turn a canopy ('flat turns') that cause the canopy to not dive so much - but many skydivers do not know how to do them.

>does the pilot lose control of the canopy at such a low altitude?

Not really. In most low-turn incidents, the canopy is doing exactly what the pilot told it to do.

>does it mean they turn into obstacles?

Sometimes yes. Sometimes it means they try to turn away from obstacles, but turn too low and/or turn incorrectly.

[AggieDave 6]

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When a canopy is turned hard with a toggle, it turns and then dives at the ground for a few seconds

I'd like to add a couple of things to your thoughts Bill.

Every turn in which the wing doesn't stay level has a recovery arc. The recovery arc is the amount of time and altitude the canopy takes to naturally return to normal flight.

Simply put the more agressive the turn and the longer the turn, the longer the recovery arc will most likely be (that is over simplified, but bare with me). There is also a point of no return in which it is not possible to use a flare to end the recovery arc. A certain amount of the arc has to be achieved before the canopy will respond to the input.

Scott Miller talks about Green turns, Yellow turns and Red turns. For some reason I can't remember the exact criteria Scott used for each turn (hopefully someone else will and can post them), but they are just like they sound. A red turn low to the ground can result in serious injury or death, same with a yellow turn. A green turn is managable low to the ground.


Superman0710: I highly recommend you talk to your instructors and/or your S&TA about these things. It wouldn't hurt to talk to the "hot shit" canopy pilot on the DZ about it either (with the instructors/S&TA's approval). Once you've progessed into self-surpervised freefall (coach jumps) you can do hop&pops and I would suggest you go through a structured canopy course such as Scott Miller's. In the mean time, I would recommend reading your SIM about canopy control and you may want to read Brian Germain's book. However, Brian's book will contain a lot of information that you won't necissarily understand at your current skill level in skydiving.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Orange1 0]

you've done 2 jumps... weren't you taught about why low turns are dangerous during training?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[LawnDart21 0]

I was "taught" low turns are dangerous and not to do them before I made my very first jump. I didn't figure out the mechanical specifics of "exactly why" until a little later. Superman0710 has asked a very valid question and this is part of the learning process. Don't flame him for it.

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

[superman0710 0]

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you've done 2 jumps... weren't you taught about why low turns are dangerous during training?

i've only done 2 tandem jumps, this 3rd jump will focus more on canopy dynamics, etc. i'm sure they'll cover it now.


P.S. - i've already purchased "the parachute and its pilot", can't wait til it gets here. i'll be ready when it comes to pilot my own chute...

i hope

[dropoutdave 0]

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you can do hop&pops and I would suggest you go through a structured canopy course such as Scott Miller's. In the mean time, I would recommend reading your SIM about canopy control and you may want to read Brian Germain's book. However, Brian's book will contain a lot of information that you won't necissarily understand at your current skill level in skydiving.

Great advice. Shame it's not compulsory.

Superman0710: Great to see you asking these questions and that you've already got a copy of The Parachute and Its Pilot on the way, you going about it the right way.

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May Contain Nut traces......

[Orange1 0]

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Don't flame him for it.

That wasn't meant to be a flame - sorry if it came across that way. And I didn't realise the first 2 jumps were tandem - down here tandems are generally only for those guys who only ever want to make one jump, so I went through a full day of training before my first jump and just made the (wrong) assumption that this happened everywhere, apologies if I inadvertendly offended anyone

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[MarkM 0]

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That wasn't meant to be a flame - sorry if it came across that way. And I didn't realise the first 2 jumps were tandem - down here tandems are generally only for those guys who only ever want to make one jump, so I went through a full day of training before my first jump and just made the (wrong) assumption that this happened everywhere, apologies if I inadvertendly offended anyone

Where he jumps at they start people off on tandems, then progress into AFF.

superman, ever watch motorcycle racing? They run at speeds up to 160 mph and often when they wipe out they roll, slide, get up and brush off the dust. That's because the energy bleeds off in the slide along the ground. Landing fast under a canopy(downwind) can be the same, even if you're going across the ground at 15 mph you can roll and bleed off the energy of the horizontal speed.

But when you turn you dump altitude, you have verticle speed. If you impact the ground like that you can't bleed off the verticle energy as easily, it has no place to go but into your body. It's like a motorcycle racer falling off his bike and slamming into a concrete wall.

Talk to Greg about it next time you're out at Homestead. He's really good about answering any questions a student has about things like this.

[AggieDave 6]

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And I didn't realise the first 2 jumps were tandem - down here tandems are generally only for those guys who only ever want to make one jump,

A lot of places teach a tandem progression. Its a newer training method and has seen some GREAT results, but that's like any student progression, its only as good as the instructors willingness to teach the students.

If you do a search you'll find a lot of discussion on this subject. If you still have questions, I'll be happy to discuss the good and bad of a student tandem progession with you. Just PM me if you have a question.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[superman0710 0]

i like that motorcycle analogy, it really helped me visualize.

and i will talk to greg! thanks a lot everyone!!