Fraud: Please help

[jpechbre 0]

I recently bought a rig from someone on the classifieds and I think I may be a victim of fraud. The user and I emailed back and forth several times discussing the rig and I determined it was what I wanted. The rig was being sold for $1300. After I sent my payment to him from my credit card via Western Union (he's located in Italy) he told me he'd send it the next day via FedEx 2 day and give me a tracking number and exact arrival date. Since I got my notice from Western Union that the money has been picked up communication has ceased and I cannot contact him, nor do I have the rig. He picked up payment last Thursday and was supposed to ship that same day. I printed the ad and there was a Premium Member star next to his user name. Does anyone have a suggestion on what to do about this? Would dropzone.com be able to give me his info so I can pursue this (he must have bought a membership with his credit card)? Should I file a fruad claim with my credit card company? I am very worried that I am a victim of fraud. When we emailed he seemed very knowledgeable about the gear and knew what he was talking about. Please help!

[iluvtofly 0]

I'm sorry to tell you this but you are in fact the victim of fraud. Unfortuantely this scams do happen on here. We try to catch them whenever we can but some do manage to slip through the cracks. Most of the time newbies like you are the victims. I don't know how much you can do about it. But I would deffinately call your credit card company NOW.

[michalm21 2]

Unfortunately it sounds like a scam and it's been done here before.
I think it's even the same guy since I remember other people being scammed from 1300 (shipped western union to Italy) before...

[PhreeZone 20]

What was the user name? I'd file a fraud report, there has been a few scammers on the classifieds lately that have been getting Premier membership accounts (probally stolen credit cards used to pay for them) and try to scam people. I just deleted one from Italy the other day that was trying to sell a Mirage and seemed to know more then the basics.

Any time someone asks for Western Union warning bells should go off for gear sales.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[jpechbre 0]

His name is William Denver and the user name on my printout of the ad says Willy (membership star). Address: Italy. There is a member named williamdenver and his last login date was the day this ad was posted. He deleted the ad after I said I'd buy it. The URL was http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/classifieds/detail_page.cgi?ID=61640&d=1

The ad read: "Very clean Javelin J3. Rig has bridle modification to make it freefly friendly. Lines are in very good shape. New BOC installed less then 15 jumps ago. Sabre 170 is Yellow and Black, estimated jumps on it are approx 350. Good condition and on RWS risers. Cypres is up to date for Batteries and maintence. The jav and the sabre both have 350 jumps. The cypres and the reserve have 0 jumps."

His User Profile is http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?username=williamdenver;

[VincentVL. 0]

I have filed multiple scam reports over the last couple of days. Is there REALLY no way to make this into a HUGE banner/sticky on here AND on the classified pages?

- IF YOU SEE A SCAM MARK IT AS A SCAM AND DON'T TIPTOE AROUND, MARK IT 99% SURE SCAM SO IT DISAPPEARS.

- DO NOT BUY A CHEAP RIG FROM ITALY. I SWEAR TO GOD I'VE SEEN AT LEAST A DOZEN SCAMS, ALL FROM SOME DODGY ENGLISH SOUNDING NAME IN ITALY

- NEVER EVER PAY THROUGH WESTERN UNION UNLESS YOU'RE SENDING THE MONEY TO YOURSELF OR SANTA CLAUS

Seriously...how do people still get scammed. Please put some HUGE ass notice everywhere you can. Seen a thread like this not too long ago.

[shropshire 0]

Western Union = Alarm Bell

Sorry mate.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[jpechbre 0]

In the future what's the best way to receive a rig with a reliable money exchange? By the way my credit card refunded my purchase :-)

[BIGUN 1,312]

For future reference, always try to use a mutually acceptable DZ Rigger or DZO as an escrow service.
You'll need to talk with your local rigger/DZO first about any fees or their receptivity to being the escrow agent (Escrow fees are negotable).
Have the seller send the rig to the rigger for inspection along with bill of sale.
Rigger holds on to the rig until acceptance.
Upon acceptance, you give the rigger the money to send to the seller.
Rigger communicates to the seller of acceptance and that money is on the way.
Rigger holds on to the rig until seller communicates payment is received and then releases the rig to the buyer.
Rigger sends transaction settlement to both parties.
If the rig is declined, the rigger sends it back to the seller and sends a termination settlement to both parties.

Hint: Make it easy on the rigger (escrow agent). Seller and buyer write an agreeement regarding terms and conditions (shipping to, shipping from if declined, who pays escrow agent fees, how long to allow for inspection and acceptance or rejection, method of payment, etc.

Edit: Or just contact GravityGirl to act as escrow agent...

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[shropshire 0]

Have you seen Bonnie's thread?

See Here

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[likestojump 3]

Quote

For future reference, always try to use a mutually acceptable DZ Rigger or DZO as an escrow service.
You'll need to talk with your local rigger/DZO first about any fees or their receptivity to being the escrow agent (Escrow fees are negotable).
Have the seller send the rig to the rigger for inspection along with bill of sale.
Rigger holds on to the rig until acceptance.
Upon acceptance, you give the rigger the money to send to the seller.
Rigger communicates to the seller of acceptance and that money is on the way.
Rigger holds on to the rig until seller communicates payment is received and then releases the rig to the buyer.
Rigger sends transaction settlement to both parties.
If the rig is declined, the rigger sends it back to the seller and sends a termination settlement to both parties.

Hint: Make it easy on the rigger (escrow agent). Seller and buyer write an agreeement regarding terms and conditions (shipping to, shipping from if declined, who pays escrow agent fees, how long to allow for inspection and acceptance or rejection, method of payment, etc.

Edit: Or just contact GravityGirl to act as escrow agent...

not everybody is ok with this. One time when I did a "try and buy" (i was SELLING) - the buyer ended up putting 17 SEVENTEEN !!! jumps on the rig, to just return it to me because "he preferred a different canopy". Didn't care to buy it without the canopy either. I figured he got a free gear rental out of me. So now what I do is ask for full payment upfront that's refundable upon 100% compliant return if what I deliver does not comply with what I advertised.

think UCC article 2
sale or return
VS
sale on approval

http://www.law.cornell.edu/ucc/2/

[Stuntbabex 0]

I feel really bad that you didnt have anyone to warn you about this beforehand. I nearly got scammed for the same amount from some person in England. When I mentioned this "great deal" (1300 for a rig with both chutes and cypres) to my more experienced skydiver friends, they strongly recommended I check the serials. Thats how I found out it was a scam.

Is there any way that we can have a big warning banner with a link to an article for first time rig purchasers on the classifieds page? It just seems like the little scam box doesnt do enough warning for newbies.

[crashtested 0]

Sorry to hear you have been messed over.
I know you must be deperate to get a rig as i was when i started but still Couple of points to think about...

Why buy a rig you have not seen, have not tried on, and know nothing about.
Even if you had got it it may have been unjumpable, stolen, or fit for the trash can.
Western union are a scammers best friend.

DROPZONE peeps
This is getting beyond a joke, if you can't control the classifieds then remove them, figure out a system and put some headlining stickys in there. hell put a massive warning sign up when people click on classifieds, anything, this must be 5 newbies in the past 4 months who have been fecked over. its not on.

[PhreeZone 20]

I would love to know what type of system you would like us to adopt, we are open to suggestions.

We have a system in place that you have to be a registered member to contact a seller.

Sellers are protected by:

Users must have been registered for X number of days before they are allowed to contact them
Buyers are not given the sellers email address to prevent spam and those type of scams
List of ID's used to Scam posted right in the classified

Buyers are protected by:
Buyers can contact sellers to ask questions
Buyers can submit potential Fraud notice that we look at and pull ads if found to be bad
List of ID's posted and their own forum to be listed in.

Is there room for improvement? Sure, but exactly what would you want us to do for free classifieds?

Do you want a system where every classified ad is personally screened prior to posting? That might mean ads only appear every few days since the classified editors have lives too.

Would you be willing to pay to have to list an ad to keep scammers away a bit more? How about a fee to contact sellers if every ad was policed by hand?

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[base_nz 0]

There is a lot of info on dropzone about scams. But i do agree with you that it should be in your face rather than you having to search for it. How hard would it be to put a READ THIS FIRST above the Classified threads?? When you go to Classifieds i cant see any scam info unless i scroll down and if im a newbe and just click on complete systems There is no further mention of scams at all.

Maybe its time to make it a little more in your face


If your buying you should know.
The 2 rules of ALL internet buying
If its to good to be true it usually is
Dont send money via western union

I nearly got scammed on a lens on ebay . Changed payment to Western union and refused to give me any contact details..Dont think so buddy...now funnily enough cant get a hold of him.

.....And you thought Kiwis couldn't fly!!!!

[peregrinerose 0]

I don't see why the classifieds need to be idiot proofed. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that sending large amounts of money through WU to an unknown individual with no guarantee of jumpable gear in return is a stupid maneuver. Anyone that doesn't ask a few questions, get references, and make wise decisions really doesn't get a lot of sympathy from me.

I've bought and sold a good bit of gear on here, always asked for references, used Paypal, and had a rigger to use as intermediary that both parties were comfortable with. It's really common sense.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[base_nz 0]

Fair enough ... F**k everyone else then!

You know how to look after yourself so why should we be worrying about those new to the sport ,who are over excited about getting there new gear and not experienced at buying over the net.

Great attitude!!

Above every forum the is a big WHAT HAPPENS IF YOU POST HERE
or something similar written by the mods. Would it be to much to ask to have something similar on the classifieds? Telling people about scams ,Western union?

But hey..... I suppose they should find out for themselves. After all F**k em right?
So that is EXACTLY what i think could be an improvement! at least then everyone will be able to see and read easily about how to avoid scams. Will it happen?

.....And you thought Kiwis couldn't fly!!!!

[peregrinerose 0]

It's not about fucking anyone. If someone is dumb enough to spend several thousand dollars buying something in another country without researching exactly who they are buying from, they can't be too surprised when they find out it's a scam. It's basic common sense, not a PhD dissertation This is true of any higher dollar purchase, whether skydiving or not. I don't have a lot of sympathy for people who blindly wire money overseas.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[skydemon2 0]

They do have a security warning on the classifeid page, but if it means that much to you put it in the suggestions forum. Maybe it wouldnt be that hard to put it on every page of the classifieds

Beauty is only skin deep, but ugly goes clean to the bone!

I like to start my day off with a little Ray of Soulshine™!!

[likestojump 3]

People who cannot use common sense - will get fucked no matter how many roadblocks are built to insure their safety. I have all the sympathy for the victims, but - c'mon, even $1300 is ALOT of money to blindly send somebody. I again, and again, and again advise - GET THE PERSON ON THE PHONE. Overseas phone calls are CHEAP (if that person is not in US/Canada) - make that extra effort.

[skyshimas 0]

I encountered froud when I was selling my canopy. First letter from "it" seemed like a regular buyer don't remember how exactly it went but "it" asked what was the lowest price I could sell it for and after replying to "it" he agreed to pay me the original price even though I was gonna sell the canopy for less and "it" had shipping all aranged someone was gonna come and pick it up.. all the BS so it was clear for me that it was a froud. when buying things I mostly relyied on their knowledge about the gear just like you did and telling me where they jump and actually I bought my new canopy from england which was a bit scary.

[popsjumper 2]

It's called responsibility, Ali. Simple as that.

Sorry, but we all must grow up someday and be responsible for ourselves...a trait that is rapidly disappearing in this world.

Some have common sense, some never get it.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[base_nz 0]

Fair enough guys..... Im not saying that sending 1300 for a complete rig through western union is a sensible thing to do... and a bit of common sense would have probably been in order.

But what i said is still a valid point... If this person would have had "BEWARE OF SCAMS PLEASE READ" at the top of the classified posts he may have read it .... Learned a bit of common sense and then in seeing the ad acted differently.

Phreezone asked exactly what we could do!? So I told you.and if people want to ignore that advice (not saying you have ) ill be more than happy to start another tread on RESPONSIBILITY if thats what its all about.

... If one simple thing can stop even a few skydivers from being ripped off I dont understand how anyone here can be arguing ????

.....And you thought Kiwis couldn't fly!!!!

[BIGUN 1,312]

Quote

So now what I do is ask for full payment upfront that's refundable upon 100% compliant return if what I deliver does not comply with what I advertised.

Hence, the, "Seller and buyer write an agreement regarding terms and conditions." Now me personally, I'm not sending you money until I have a chance to inspect the gear. I will tell you that when selling it, my agreement stipulates, rigger inspection and two jumps. There's also a "If you burn it; you've bought it" clause.

I think what's important here is that we're both saying that it's more important to treat this as a contractual transaction, rather than an emotional purchase. Sometimes, when you start talking terms & conditons, that may throw up the red flag for one or both parties to move on.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[mr2mk1g 10]

Sorry man, but I got to "via Western Union" and quit reading. So should have you.