Regulation of RSL's: was Fatality in Rockmart, GA -- 26Jul08

[JCW1966 0]

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I was told it was mandatory (from the manufacturer)to have an RSL install on Javelins unless it was waived by a master rigger.

Not trying to be a jerk here but when did a mandatory "suggestion" from a manufacturer become law?

I'm not picking on you but grateful that you made that statement.

In this country there is not a regulation from the FAA or the USPA requiring RSL's or AAD's except for student rigs, and maybe tandems?

Anyway I feel like it's time that there are some requirements made regarding equipment. My ground instructor and jump master for my LVL 1 jump, as well as becoming a very dear friend over the last 2 years, has thousands of jumps. He won't jump without an RSL or AAD. He's also made me swear to do the same.

It's time that there is some requirements in this country other than you have to have your reserve repacked by a master rigger. There are other countries that actually require an AAD. Why not RSLs as well? They can always be disconnected if and when the need arises such as 2 divers entangled under canopy.

I don't know if an RSL would have helped here or not but if I have to cut away I want that RSL option.

[AggieDave 6]

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Not trying to be a jerk here but when did a mandatory "suggestion" from a manufacturer become law?

I'm not picking on you but grateful that you made that statement.

It has to do with the TSO issued to Sunpath and then a lawsuit against the company a couple of years ago. If you do a search you'll find it.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[obadz 0]

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I was told it was mandatory (from the manufacturer)to have an RSL install on Javelins unless it was waived by a master rigger.

[...]

It's time that there is some requirements in this country other than you have to have your reserve repacked by a master rigger. There are other countries that actually require an AAD. Why not RSLs as well? [...]

Oh yeah, regulation is definitely the answer to that one

[JeepDiver 0]

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He won't jump without an RSL or AAD. He's also made me swear to do the same.

I want the skyhook option. Having used it, I know that it's all a matter of seconds. Or more importantly tenths of a second. I want an inflated reserve above my head in 200 feet or 1.42861 seconds. I can disconnect my RSL if I so choose and I have the time and altitude for other reasons, other than a low cutaway, but doing away with the option out of that old school dumb ass mentality is foolish. If I'm at 4100 feet, wrapped, screwed or what have you I can always pull that little yellow tab and do away with that option, however, lower, jammed up, in bad place relative to time and space I want everything to work as fast as possible for one last chance. Just my opinion.

Did not having an RSL help in this incident? Not having an RSL didn't help in fact did it?

Instead of you swearing an oath not to use an RSL or AAD why don't you ask him to cash the check you may end up writing one day. Or for whatever reason this guy didn't have an RSL or skyhook equipped Javelin.

[flyhi 24]

Good call Dave.

Found it right here.

Shit happens. And it usually happens because of physics.

[Andy9o8 2]

I think you misunderstood his post - his instructor wants him to always use them.

[JohnRich 4]

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I feel like it's time that there are some requirements made regarding equipment... if I have to cut away I want that RSL option.

And you can have it. But don't try and force others to have an option that they don't want. RSL's can create problems too, and jumpers should be able to make their own decisions as to whether or not they want that option. It should not be a mandate as you suggest.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

In this particular case the guy was wearing a camera. Chances are he would have undone it if he had one.

[Synapse 0]

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And you can have it. But don't try and force others to have an option that they don't want.

I'm with JohnRich on this one. If the device were absolutely fool proof and -never- created a problem, then ok, make it mandatory. If however it does have the potential for causing problems, I can't see forcing people to have/use it.

Now, personally, I'm -not- going up without an RSL and an AAD. For my experience level and the type of skydiving I'm doing, the benefits outweigh the risks. But that debate is horse well beaten.

-syn

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain
a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty
nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin

[jsaxton 0]

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It's time that there is some requirements in this country other than you have to have your reserve repacked by a master rigger.

It's time that there is some requirements in this country other than you have to have your reserve repacked by a senior rigger.

[JCW1966 0]

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He won't jump without an RSL or AAD. He's also made me swear to do the same.

Instead of you swearing an oath not to use an RSL or AAD why don't you ask him to cash the check you may end up writing one day. Or for whatever reason this guy didn't have an RSL or skyhook equipped Javelin.

JeepDiver you need quit the speed reading stuff and re read what I said. I was made to swear never to jump WITHOUT an RSL & AAD.

As for those who don't like my idea of more regulation I agree with you. I don't like more regulation either. But there has to be some regulation in everything we do.

I'm into high power rocketry as well. I put a rocket up to 11,320' at mach 1.34 last year. If you're flying in an airplane while I'm flying rockets you want me to have to follow some regulations. What makes skydiving different? This policing ourselves isn't working real well. What's the fatality count for the year so far? The past 10 days or so has been nothing but one huge terrible loss for our sport, family, and friends.

For myself I'm jumping with an RSL & AAD, and I'm landing off on the other side of the runway at my home DZ and taking the extra walk back. I can at least police myself.

[javelin1 0]

parachutes are not foolproof, would you rather that THEY NOT be required??

[virgin-burner 1]

regulations are great!!!

for those that dont know how to use their brain.. or simply dont know how to make it useful..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[mjosparky 4]

http://www.sunpath.com/downloads/bulletins/RSL_Alteration.pdf

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Synapse 0]

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parachutes are not foolproof, would you rather that THEY NOT be required??

The alternative to not having a parachute fails every time... the alternative to not using an RSL/AAD doesn't exactly produce the same results. It's this difference in the risk/benefit ratio that makes the RSL/AAD conversation what it is. If it was as black and white as parachute/no parachute, we'd never hear about it.


-syn

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain
a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty
nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin

[obadz 0]

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[...] But there has to be some regulation in everything we do. [...]

I disagree. It's very easy to determine when regulation is required: "Your freedom ends where my nose begins."

In my humble opinion, as long as you're not affecting others, there's no need for what you do to be regulated. And my wearing an RSL (or not) really does not affect anyone but me (to any reasonable extent).

Shooting rockets up evidently affects pilots which is why it needs to be regulated.

[dropoutdave 0]

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If you're flying in an airplane while I'm flying rockets you want me to have to follow some regulations. What makes skydiving different?

We already have plenty of regulations. Making RSLs compulsory isn't suddenly going to revolutionize the sport. Leave people with the choice and the opportunity to face the consequences of their actions.

------------------------------------------------------
May Contain Nut traces......

[JCW1966 0]

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I disagree. It's very easy to determine when regulation is required: "Your freedom ends where my nose begins."

I love that statement, I really do, but try telling that to the Federal Gov't.

It would make a great T shirt though

An RSL can be disconnected, An AAD can be left "off". So if there was a regulation requiring them on our rigs we would ultimately still have a choice as to whether or not we actually used them. Nothing is full proof.

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In my humble opinion, as long as you're not affecting others, there's no need for what you do to be regulated. And my wearing an RSL (or not) really does not affect anyone but me (to any reasonable extent).

To a reasonable extent? What about people and property on the ground? What if you cutaway at a 1000 and don't get your reserved pulled in time? Now let's add a landing area underneath you at a boogie and there are a few hundred folks on the ground watching. You just affected them. Now let's say you hit a spectator who's watching you fall without a reserve out and wham, you just affected them too. And what about the family and friends left behind? Don't we owe it to them to be as safe as we can when enjoying ourselves and our involvement in skydiving?

RSLs are good in certain situations, bad in others, but if you have one then you also have the choice as to use it or not.

Is a regulation that requires you to be euipped with a choice really a bad thing?

If you don't have an RSL then you just took that choice away from yourself. I'd rather have the choice than to not have it.

Bottom line is I'm jumping with an RSL. It may never be a requirement in our sport because we live in a country that allows us those freedoms. Or at least it does until the insurance industry steps in just like they did with motorcyles and helmets. Not all states require a helmet. Of the fifty states, only 4 are 100% helmet law free. Of the other 46 states, 20 have full helmet laws for all motorcycle riders, 19 States have helmet laws that exempt adult riders, 18 years old and over. And 7 states require adult riders between the ages of 18 to 21 to wear helmets, over 21 and you're more than welcome to plant your head against the asphalt without one.
Above stats are from: http://usff.com/hldl/frames/50state.html

I guess you could say that just like some helmet laws the right to jump a rig without an RSL or AAD is just another way to help control population growth.

I know what we do is dangerous and in the end we will have incidents that result in death. But why not try to make it as safe as possible and in doing so we just might save someone's life? Who knows, could be yours or mine that gets saved.

[obadz 0]

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I know what we do is dangerous and in the end we will have incidents that result in death. But why not try to make it as safe as possible and in doing so we just might save someone's life? Who knows, could be yours or mine that gets saved.

Hey don't look at me like that: I jump an RSL I'm not arguing against it, just against the regulation aspect of your post.

That doesn't mean I want to force that onto anyone else. If some guy is going to jump with his RSL disconnected on every jump, who am I to decide he should have some piece of gear flapping around his mudflap?

If some swooper is going to jump with his AAD off, who am I to decide he should carry some piece of expensive electronics that'll add to his weight and pack volume?

Regarding the people on the ground: my incentives are aligned with theirs: I don't want to fall onto them any more than they want me to. So now the question is, if there is a piece of equipment that would help reduce the probability of that happening, should there be a rule making that equipment mandatory for every skydiver? You could argue that. And you could probably make decent case for mandatory AADs (which many countries have done). But if so many highly experienced people disagree on the merits of the RSL, I don't believe it's such a clear-cut case.

Has there ever been a case of a skydiver hitting someone on the ground in freefall? If so, would an RSL have made any difference? I think the "reasonable extent" qualification I used applies here.

[JCW1966 0]

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So now the question is, if there is a piece of equipment that would help reduce the probability of that happening, should there be a rule making that equipment mandatory for every skydiver? You could argue that. And you could probably make decent case for mandatory AADs (which many countries have done). But if so many highly experienced people disagree on the merits of the RSL, I don't believe it's such a clear-cut case.

Has there ever been a case of a skydiver hitting someone on the ground in freefall? If so, would an RSL have made any difference? I think the "reasonable extent" qualification I used applies here.

Wow! Okay, I'm sold. I'll jump with an RSL because I choose to and let everyone esle decide what they want in their gear.

If you're not into politics maybe you should look into that as a career move. You could definitely do some speech writing. This whole thread has taught me something and that last post you made drove it home for me albeit in the opposite direction I first chose.

But if RSLs got regulated it wouldn't hurt my feelings either.

My journey with this thread has come to it's end.

[icevideot 0]

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In this particular case the guy was wearing a camera. Chances are he would have undone it if he had one.

That statement is not a fair assumption these days. Not long ago most would argue against RSL's for moderately loaded elipticals but now they are more common. Most of my jumps are video jumps with high performance canopies and I would not have disconnected the RSL.

If you don't have time to pull a disconnect tab why would you have time to get stable or clear an entanglement after you just cut away?

I think this is worth reconsidering by old school jumpers who believe RSL's are for low timers with docile gear. I used to be one of you because esperienced people I still respect taught me to think that. Now I respectfully believe they are mistaken.

Good luck in choosing your own path. I will continue to examine and choose mine.

"... this ain't a Nerf world."

[jacketsdb23 49]

I now jump my crossfire2 loaded @ 1.55 with my camera setup with the RSL connected. My first ~50 jumps with camera I had the RSL disconnected. After a discussion with myself and others at the DZ this past weekend, I have chosen to jump with the RSL connected.

It is worth looking at if you choose to jump with the RSL disconnected.

Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen
God is Good
Beer is Great
Swoopers are crazy.

[MarkM 0]

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An RSL can be disconnected, An AAD can be left "off". So if there was a regulation requiring them on our rigs we would ultimately still have a choice as to whether or not we actually used them. Nothing is full proof.

So you make a skydiver pay $1k on an ADD they leave turned off when that money could've been spent on canopy coaching, freefly coaching, currency jumps, etc.

Brilliant.

[JCW1966 0]

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So you make a skydiver pay $1k on an ADD they leave turned off when that money could've been spent on canopy coaching, freefly coaching, currency jumps, etc.

Brilliant.

No you're brilliant. So damn bright your momma calls you son. If you read my last post I came to the conclusion that people should jump what they want. You're a little late on this discussion and I guess you must be bored with nothing else to do.

But since you had someting to say let's look at your remark.

"that money could've been spent on canopy coaching, freefly coaching, currency jumps, etc."

1) Most likely if a diver won't spend a 1k on an AAD I doubt they'll spend money on a canopy course.

2) Freefly coaching doesn't have anything to do with flying a canopy. As a matter of fact if they're freeflying they should be wearing an AAD. What if they have a collision with another diver and get knocked out? Think their chute is going to come out on it's own? Not without an AAD it won't.

3) And if they're having to spend money on currency jumps they most likely need to be jumping with an AAD and an RSL anyway. They're already having to jump with an instrutor for their currency jump just like a student who, by the way, is required to be wearing an AAD.

Like I said in my last post when I said I was out of here. I'll continue to jump with an AAD and an RSL and others can choose what they want to jump with.

[airathanas 0]

No way you could make me jump with a RSL. No thanks. I was looking for a new rig, but now I know that Jav is out.

AAD - that's another matter. I'll always jump with one of those.

http://3ringnecklace.com/