Sprialing under canopy - Was: Fatality - Clewiston Fl - 18 July 2008
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Yes, you have the right but to do so is completely inconsiderate. I'd bet that you can't stand it when there's someone in the "fast" lane doing the speed limit when there are two other lanes.
Technically you're right but practically and socially you're totally wrong.
If people actually watch traffic they'll notice that the worst jams are usually caused by slow cars in the fast lane and big trucks. To qualify, the stop start is usually caused by people following too close which is usually exacerbated by slow people in the fast lane because all the impatient people bunch up behind them.
The skydiving equivalent is having someone hanging in brakes in the pattern, be that a swoop lane or the standard pattern and the big trucks are the tandems. They just go last.
There is a solution to this problem that doesn't involve banning anything. Moving swoopers to a different landing area only hides the real problem anyway.
Technically you're right but practically and socially you're totally wrong.
If people actually watch traffic they'll notice that the worst jams are usually caused by slow cars in the fast lane and big trucks. To qualify, the stop start is usually caused by people following too close which is usually exacerbated by slow people in the fast lane because all the impatient people bunch up behind them.
The skydiving equivalent is having someone hanging in brakes in the pattern, be that a swoop lane or the standard pattern and the big trucks are the tandems. They just go last.
There is a solution to this problem that doesn't involve banning anything. Moving swoopers to a different landing area only hides the real problem anyway.
QuoteYes, you have the right but to do so is completely inconsiderate. I'd bet that you can't stand it when there's someone in the "fast" lane doing the speed limit when there are two other lanes.
Technically you're right but practically and socially you're totally wrong.
If people actually watch traffic they'll notice that the worst jams are usually caused by slow cars in the fast lane and big trucks. To qualify, the stop start is usually caused by people following too close which is usually exacerbated by slow people in the fast lane because all the impatient people bunch up behind them.
The skydiving equivalent is having someone hanging in brakes in the pattern, be that a swoop lane or the standard pattern and the big trucks are the tandems. They just go last.
There is a solution to this problem that doesn't involve banning anything. Moving swoopers to a different landing area only hides the real problem anyway.
to add to that allegory figure the swooper is the motorcycle who is a lot more maneuverable , but to be a responsible swooper is much like being a responsible motorcycle driver in the the aforementioned situation.
Cheers
D
who is a swooper...
http://www.skyjunky.com
CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.
CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.
There is a solution to this problem that doesn't involve banning anything. Moving swoopers to a different landing area
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i know this and you know this but why are we still seeing collisions and death ? why are the hp canopy pilots still saying they have the right? why don't we have seperate landing ares?
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i know this and you know this but why are we still seeing collisions and death ? why are the hp canopy pilots still saying they have the right? why don't we have seperate landing ares?
QuoteMoving swoopers to a different landing area only hides the real problem anyway.
No. It gives us a chance to learn from mistakes without getting killed.
We all make mistakes. We all need to do better and focus on education but as long as people are allowed to Swoop in the same area that people are trying to land a standard pattern, We will continue to have more and more canopy collisions.
Separate the landings areas by Time or Distance. People with more jumps than most of the people in this thread combined (Including the HP Canopy Pilots) have already proven this by causing canopy collisions and killing themselves and others while swooping the main landing area while standard pattern fliers were trying to land. Most of those accidents had NOTHING to do with someone spiraling down under a Larger canopy (even though that may have been a contributing factor to this one).
It doesn’t work. People DIE when you mix HP landings and Standard landings. How many more need to get killed before people realize this?
klingeme 1
QuoteThanks for the first hand account. A couple questions. After opening, how far did you fly before spiraling down? Where were you in the exit order? What were the wing loadings of both of your canopies? Thanks, maybe you can share the video
It was about 5 years ago, so what I'm about to say could be COMPLETELY wrong, but as I recall it, I was a 200-300 jump wonder loaded at about 1.3 (don't know about the other guy), I was on a hybrid jump with the brick shithouse, the DZO an I think 2 other people. I believe we were first out. We probably broke at around 5,000, I probably pulled at around 3,500-3,000. I think the jumper I hit hummed it down to around 2,500. I probably burried the toggle after stowing my slider behind my head and turning towards the DZ.
As far as posting the video, that was the promise I made to the guy that I almost killed. The video would never be distributed. I could show it to everyone at the DZ for a training (what NOT to do) video, but I was to retain the ONLY copy. He did not want his family seeing it on "Real TV" and he had NO intentions of ever telling his family it happened.
I have chosen to honor his request.
Mark Klingelhoefer
Editied to add that I was sorry I was actually adding CONTENT to this pissing match.
The real problem is that people aren't paying attention. It's got easy IMO to get into the sky so people respect it less (says the 36 jump wonder!). The HP/standard landing conflict is really just highlighting an existing issue that people just don't know how to fly their canopies.
I saw this happen today, two people flying standard pattern and one gets cut off to the point of having to turn the other way. The argument is that if one of these people had been doing a HP landing then there would have been injury or death. I'm not saying that that isn't the case, I'm saying that the problem is always there, just on slower approaches you have more time to deal with the problem.
I think that's agreed already but my main point is that there's still a big problem with canopy flight generally it's just that the HP landings make it too obvious for people to ignore. But we seem to just be happy to let it fester in standard landings as long as no one gets hurt.
I saw this happen today, two people flying standard pattern and one gets cut off to the point of having to turn the other way. The argument is that if one of these people had been doing a HP landing then there would have been injury or death. I'm not saying that that isn't the case, I'm saying that the problem is always there, just on slower approaches you have more time to deal with the problem.
I think that's agreed already but my main point is that there's still a big problem with canopy flight generally it's just that the HP landings make it too obvious for people to ignore. But we seem to just be happy to let it fester in standard landings as long as no one gets hurt.
billeisele 130
Quote
I saw this happen today, two people flying standard pattern and one gets cut off to the point of having to turn the other way. The argument is that if one of these people had been doing a HP landing then there would have been injury or death. I'm not saying that that isn't the case, I'm saying that the problem is always there, just on slower approaches you have more time to deal with the problem.
I think that's agreed already but my main point is that there's still a big problem with canopy flight generally it's just that the HP landings make it too obvious for people to ignore. But we seem to just be happy to let it fester in standard landings as long as no one gets hurt.
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- maybe this is all true where you jump, if so talk to the DZO
- we have seperated the landing areas, watch every load and provide coaching to those that don't fly appropriate patterns in the "regular" landing area
- aerial photo with wind direction and landing direction is posted
- visitors get briefing, left hand pattern and fly a predictable pattern
- Skyfest - 425 registered jumpers, 4,438 jumps - no collisions, no problems
- it works
Give one city to the thugs so they can all live together. I vote for Chicago where they have strict gun laws.
micduran 0
Quote- aerial photo with wind direction and landing direction is posted
This was updated throughout the day as the winds changed. And it was posted right at manifest near the loading area.
I looked at it before 90% of the loads I was on and saw others doing the same thing.
There was never any doubt about the landing pattern, holding area, or landing direction.
Be patient with the faults of others; they have to be patient with yours.
DSE 5
Quote
- maybe this is all true where you jump, if so talk to the DZO
- we have seperated the landing areas, watch every load and provide coaching to those that don't fly appropriate patterns in the "regular" landing area
- aerial photo with wind direction and landing direction is posted
- visitors get briefing, left hand pattern and fly a predictable pattern
- Skyfest - 425 registered jumpers, 4,438 jumps - no collisions, no problems
- it works
None of it helps in a situation where the canopy pilot isn't completely heads-up. I was that canopy pilot yesterday. Had taken a rental rig up due to my backup being out of the air for the day...and it flew a lot differently than my canopy.
on approach, I didn't see another pilot above me (he was about 200' higher, but that's no excuse). I came into the pattern between he and another person below me (who I was aware of) and more or less cut the approach of the higher guy. Had he been doing an HP landing, it's entirely likely we'd both have been hurt. Both of us landing in the "D" license-only area, me doing a hooked 90 on the right half and him doing the same on the left half.
I was low guy, but it was my screwup. BTW, our landing areas are large enough that we have both right/left patterns with plenty of room for each side.
Not really sure where this came from. I never said anything about compressing the pattern. All I said was while the OP was spiraling, a swooper is already in the pattern therefore this person is spiraling in someone else's pattern....hence....he is not the ONLY one in the sky!!
QuoteWhere do you jump? I want to make sure I am NEVER on a load with you!! maybe you should realize that other people are in the air and that you DON'T always have the right of way!
I would think most skydivers "should" assume that they do not have the right away. Ever. If I'm playing around, even at 4000 feet, I'm not going to assume it's ok whether I see anyone within 1000 foot of me or not. I'm expecting danger when I spiral down to lose some altitude (or whatever). So I try to just not do it at all.
Rodriguez Brother #1614, Muff Brother #4033
Jumped: Twin Otter, Cessna 182, CASA, Helicopter, Caravan
Jumped: Twin Otter, Cessna 182, CASA, Helicopter, Caravan
rehmwa 2
QuoteWhat about that highly loaded canopy - gets out in the front (first RW group out) gets to the bottom of the traffic ......... sits in 3/4 brakes while trying to set up .....
Quote..... You go around them or wait.
I don't think it's a good idea to go around that guy - he's in deep brakes and looking for that hook. You pass him, he whips a dive. You can figure out the rest. Even if it turns out, then you deal with the tizzy fit on the ground.
I'd just be happy seeing a reasonable stack up, and those on the bottom getting down and out of the way, and those at the top staying patient. Squeezing the stack up from both ends is pretty common.
And, yes, since there is such a huge range of performance out there today, it really does stink that we can't play around real hard under our canopies when the sky is crowded (unless we take separate passes or move somewhere with only small planes). But that's the cards we're dealt with now.
...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
Quote--------------------------------------------
- maybe this is all true where you jump, if so talk to the DZO
- we have seperated the landing areas, watch every load and provide coaching to those that don't fly appropriate patterns in the "regular" landing area
- aerial photo with wind direction and landing direction is posted
- visitors get briefing, left hand pattern and fly a predictable pattern
- Skyfest - 425 registered jumpers, 4,438 jumps - no collisions, no problems
- it works
I'd be totally up for that. This wasn't an instance where someone was flying the wrong pattern though. Someone got cut off for whatever reason on standard landings. People at our DZ are informed of the left hand pattern (we have that too) and we all agree on direction. Sometimes people are silly when there's really light wind but normally it's pretty good.
My point was that the potential is always there, irrespective of landing speed/type.
wmw999 2,545
I'm not quite as sure about the bottom end (not landing quickly when you're low man), but when one is at the top end, there are pressures to land faster. Team jumps when doing back-to-backs, wanting to be one of the first to get your rig to the packer, just wanting to have enough time to pack and then make an earlier jump.QuoteSqueezing the stack up
Not that they're good enough, but when you're trying to land fast, consider those. And when you schedule jumps for your team, bigway, or group, consider that as well, and don't set them up to want to land faster. There's always pulling low, but that has its own problem
Wendy W.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)
PhreeZone 20
4 way teams usually get their own pass at 10.5k for a few reasons, the canopy pattern stack issue being one of them. Putting a 4 way team that is back to backing out after a 6 way group is just going to force the team to rush down and condence the stack and clogs the pattern. Instead put the 4 way team out at 10.5 and they still get their 35 seconds of working time plus they will have enough time to land in a clear stack and get gear on to meet the airplane as its landing with out too much rushing. In this case the 4 way team will usually be on the ground before the 6 way is opening or even exiting depending on a lot of factors.
Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery
Parachutemanuals.com
And tomorrow is a mystery
Parachutemanuals.com
Grandma still dies. If she wasn't a nice grandma her heirs might be happy with the money they get from you and your insurance company.
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