Sprialing under canopy - Was: Fatality - Clewiston Fl - 18 July 2008

[billvon 3,072]

>Just because I take the position of being the reckless, unpredictable
>spiral monkey does not mean that is how I fly. This is simply to combat
>those who believe that people above a certain wing loading should be
>opening high and sitting in breaks, to allow a pattern separation that is far
>more than adequate, all in the name of them have all the space they
>want.

If you are indeed lying about this stuff, and are doing it just to get a rise out of people, please cut it out. It does not advance the cause of learning about canopy flight, and wastes a lot of time and bandwidth.

[Thanatos340 1]

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If I'm at your DZ and they have a separate landing area for Swoopers I will land there.

And if it doesnt, Would you swoop anyway?

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Spiraling down into the pattern affects more than swoopers................It affects everyone on the load.

And Swooping where people are trying to land in a Normal Pattern affects more than just swoopers. It endangers anyone else trying to land in the same area at the same time.

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I'm getting sick of it always leaning toward that direction.

And I am sick of friends dying in canopy collisions.

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Regarding the fatalities at Clewiston. I don't believe that swooping was the cause of the collision.

It was certainly a contributing factor.

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it appears that this DZ didn't have that rule in effect

Something every jumper should consider when choosing a place to jump. If the DZ doesnt seperate HP landing from Standard landings, It is disaster waiting to happen.

If you have HP landings and Normal Pattern landing in the same area at the same time, It is just a matter of time. Evreyone of us is Human and makes mistakes. Mix slow and HP landing in the same area and those mistakes cost lives.

Two people at 20 MPH has a much greater chance of seeing each other after one of them makes a mistake and avoid and/or recovering from a collision than One person flying 20 mph and another coming in from thier blinds spot at 80+ MPH.

Of all the canopy collision in the past two years, This is the only one I can remember where a slower canopy spiraling down may have been a factor.

We all need to do better but seperating HP landings from Standard Landings is the only way to reduce these accidents.


Anyone know if the USPA GM Pledge was ever actually changed to require a plan for seperating HP landing and Standard Landings?

[frost 1]

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someone in a hard spiral, and the range of view they have. The leading edge of the canopy is about at the horizon, and your feet are pointed about in the opposite direction. This means your 180 degree vertical view, and your better than 180 degree horizontal view (you check your blind spots when you change lanes in your car, don't you?) is directed straight down.
You can see everything below the horizon in all directions as you rotate!!!!! This gives you an outstanding ability to see traffic anywhere below you. Considering your higher than normal decent speed, and your direction of straight down, this makes it impossible for someone to hit you, and as long as you identify other traffic, makes it impossible for you to run into someone else. The only area you can't see is above you, and if someone runs into you from behind, then it is not your fault anyways.
If you are spinning, and see a canopy that is going to be traveling into the airspace below you, simply stop spinning!

What an elaborate troll. I cannot believe old timers (some of the more sarcastic and clever ones, too :) have fallen for it and keep feeding it...

If this is NOT a troll, then it has got to be the most ridiculous concept i have read here in a while...

In any case, guys, may i suggest that you stop wasting your time on this one, elevating your blood pressure and stressing out? Just add yet another one to your collection of online NWA's (Noobs With Attitudes).

[hparrish 0]

You seem to only want to make this about swooping. So I'm done talking to you until you are educated enough to understand both aspects of the argument.

My DZ has one landing area. When and if I am first down I swoop. When its' conjested I bail and land normal.

We also organize our loads and exit order partially based on landing styles, landing direction, wing loading, etc.....We run an offset jumprun so exit orders regarding Freeflying vs RW, is not really an issue.

We have NEVER had a Canopy Collision in the 12 years I have been jumping there. Nor am I aware of any in the 35 years of operation there.

Every DZ does things differently, I follow the rules when I'm visiting. But more importantly I'm an experienced canopy pilot and I know when to Swoop and when not to.

But none of that will satisfy you...........becuase you just want to condemn swooping and win your argument.

[ianmdrennan 2]

How did we go from spiralling under canopy to swooping?

Performance Designs Factory Team

[kefran 0]

this is probably the worst attitude i've ever seen from a newbie, not even near being current with 79 jumps in 5 years ...

you say that we don't know you : you're right ... but your assumptions and words are just telling us that you're what we know : a very new beginner with strictly no experience at all.

one thing i strongly hope is that the day you'll kill yourself (and it will happen as long as you stay bocked like that ...) you won't take someone else's life with you ...

you're truly the poorest minded skydiver i've read here ...

"pathetic-guy" should be your nickname.

--------------------------------------------------
I never used 2 rocks to start a fire ... this is called evolution !

[Thanatos340 1]

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How did we go from spiralling under canopy to swooping?

Discussing an accident that involved BOTH of these things.

And pointing out the Hipcracy. To me the arguments that HP canopy pilots make about swooping the main landing area and this guys arguments about his RIGHT to spiral are equally laughable.

[Thanatos340 1]

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So I'm done talking to you until you are educated enough to understand both aspects of the argument.

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But more importantly I'm an experienced canopy pilot and I know when to Swoop and when not to.

You are right.
I am not educated enough to understand how someone can always see everything and make the right decision everytime. I know I am not that good and never will be, At anything.

[virtek 0]

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I will tell you though, that I have never been told that my canopy practices are unsafe

I think the other people here are telling you exactly that.

[frost 1]

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You are right.
I am not educated enough to understand how someone can always see everything and make the right decision everytime. I know I am not that good and never will be, At anything.

Please, chill. No need for emotional outbursts here.

You know anyone who is that perfect under a bigger wing? Everyone makes mistakes, all you can do is try to avoid them by increasing your skill and knowledge.

If EVERY "swooper" out there realizes that there are times when you dont swoop and that aborting your turn is OK, then we'll be in a better place, all of us. Harry is saying similar things, he is willing to abort and will do so if needed. But even if EVERY HP pilot out there at least follows the rules and never makes mistakes, there are still other people in the sky that may not do it. Can Harry make a mistake? Yes, he can. We all can. Can you and others with lower experience under bigger wings, making slow approaches make the same mistakes? More then likely.

Educate yourself and others on good flying patterns. All this "swoop is bad - lets ban it" bull crap will never happen. I promise you. We need a constructive solution, other then bans, rules and regulations. Read my post in the original "Fatality - Clewiston Fl - 18 July" thread about self discipline and the shared responsibilities.

[BillyVance 34]

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This means your 180 degree vertical view, and your better than 180 degree horizontal view (you check your blind spots when you change lanes in your car, don't you?) is directed straight down.
You can see everything below the horizon in all directions as you rotate!!!!! This gives you an outstanding ability to see traffic anywhere below you.

No it doesn't. If you are spiralling in that fashion, you're going fast enough that most everything is going to be a blur, and you likely will not be able to easily identify anything except if you were looking at the exact point in your vision that is the center of your spiral.

I should know. I had a high speed spiraling malfunction and everything was a blur. And I was spinning about as fast as I can make my canopy go if I buried one toggle.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[Thanatos340 1]

The post you are referring to is one of the best I have read on this and I agree with it completely. I would gladly take your pledge.

I have NEVER even come close to suggesting banning Swooping (Lets not get emotional here and twist what is being said). I plan on starting to learn myself.

I am simply saying HP Landing and Normal Landing in the same area at the same time are a disaster waiting to happen. EVERYONE makes mistakes. (Big Wing, Small wing and everyone in between). Separate HP landings from Standard Landings and we might have a chance to learn from those mistakes.

We ALL need to do better but separating HP landings from standard landings is needed.

[Cashmanimal 0]

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Maybe you will see as I do, spinning is highly predictable

I am surprised nobody had anything to say about this specifically. I think spinning canopies are the most unpredictable objects in the sky. Regardless of altitude, a person who is spinning til' their eyeball pop out is extremely unpredictable. Are they burying a toggle? They are going to lose a lot of altitude. Are they on rears? They aren't going to lose as much altitude. Are they on fronts? Kiss their altitude goodbye (all generally speaking of course-- what is their wingloading?). But most importantly, a spiraling maniac... when the hell is he going to stop?

"Okay, he's done 3 full turns... 4.... 5.... 6.... will he do 7? 12? 7.5? Will be facing north? south?" Nobody has any idea except for the jackass with the toggle tied around his ankle.

At least with swoopers, I can make a logical prediction. "Oh gosh, he's spiraling. Where will he stop?" I'm no mind-reader, but the better majority of the time, I'd be willing to bet it's before he hits the ground. And if he is semi-proficient in what he is doing, he (or she) should at least be headed in the same GENERAL direction as the landing pattern.

Wreckless eyeball-popping playground-bullying spiraling is a bad idea. that's just a fact. Just as much as swooping through traffic, head-down with velcro risers and wingsuiting with a HP canopy loaded at 3.0. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen... but that doesn't negate the fact that it's a less-than-good idea.

It's all fun and until someone loses an eye... then it's just a game to find the eye

[mnealtx 0]

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But none of that will satisfy you me...........becuase you I just want to condemn defend swooping and win your my argument.

Think on the changes I made...then re-read your posts and ask yourself if it fits.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[LongWayToFall 0]

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I think the other people here are telling you exactly that.

The people saying this have not seen me under canopy. Therefore, they are only basing their opinion on what I have said on an internet forum, which has a value of zero.

To All: I have overstated my opinion on spiraling, and exaggerated my views on it as well. It is NOT my right to spiral. It is however, my right to be provided the opportunity to safely land my parachute, and I must provide it to all others in the sky as well. Personally, I don't spiral very much at all. It just bugs me when someone says that I am expected to sit in brakes all day, because my wingloading is X. I realize that in my limited experience, I may not be able to determine when a situation would be unsafe. I will certainly heed the advice given on here, it has been insightful and brought up things I had not considered.

So, I am sorry for stressing all of you out. I would implore you to allow people who are actually watching me pilot my canopy to be the judge of my safety.

[frost 1]

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what I have said on an internet forum, which has a value of zero.

Brilliant!

[hparrish 0]

Sorry I got suckered into a swooping debate..........This is about Spiraling down into the pattern.

[mirage62 0]

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Please, chill. No need for emotional outbursts here.

and then

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All this "swoop is bad - lets ban it" bull crap will never happen. I promise you.

It seems like some (not all and perhaps not even Frost) swoopers have this idea that everyone is out to ban swooping. It's like the far right or far left.

I don't think that banning swooping is a good idea, and I don't think you could stop it BUT like it or not it is a smaller part of the skydiving community and thats just a fact. People who don't perform HP landing are getting scared of being taken out by a swooper. YES they can be taken out by a bozo sprialing down. Yes education is important. BUT swoopers like it or not your community is the one getting a black eye.

Seperate landing area's a good, different loads is better.

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[BDashe 0]

Go to Lodi and spiral til your eyes pop out, see what happens!

So there I was...

Making friends and playing nice since 1983

[frost 1]

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swoopers like it or not your community is the one getting a black eye

That may be the case. But realize this. In the small community of swoopers, there are more well behaved, skilled and educated pilots then in most other disciplines. We train, we advance our skills and knowledge, we try to make it safer for all of us by passing that experience to the rest of the skydiving community. Now, when a Pro swooper, a recognized and sponsored pilot, a canopy coach is trying to pass on some of that knowledge to someone with 100 jumps and the guy just does not want to listen and argues... The only thing i can say is "WTF!?"

This guy here - the OP - is just an example, it's clear that his ideas are meaningless, he is clueless and his words are a waste of time and bandwidth. But there are others who behave in similar manner. The 100-500-1000 jump know it all's. These people, like the OP, will grow up to be dangerous skydivers, who wont listen to good advice at 1000 jumps just like they didnt want to listen to it at 50. In fact with more jumps they are even less likely to listen.

The attitude is the problem here, not the activity.

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education is important.

Seperate landing area's a good

different loads is better.

Which one of the three do you think is easier to accomplish and is more likely to happen on any given DZ? ;)

The last two are possible but not very likely to happen.

Separate landing areas. A few DZs are lucky to have a separate landing area. Like The Farm where Hans - one of the original swoopers - is the DZO and does everything to accommodate the pilots. But that's not the rule, it's an exception.

Separate swoop loads. Having separate loads for swoopers ALL the time at ALL dropzones is just not possible, IMO. For many reasons. One - swoopers want to freefall too. Two - like you said - swoopers are a small community and there are not enough canopy pilots on a given day to fill up the plane JUST for swoop loads. Three - not all DZs allow separate low passes on busy days. I can think of a few more, but these should be enough.

That leaves # 1 - Education. Now THIS can be done on EVERY DZ, by EVERYONE reading this forum. Swooper or not. If you see someone fucking up - talk to them. Dont scream, dont get upset (i have been guilty of that once or twice)... Just explain the error and offer a solution. If that doesnt help right away, do it again. It will work, give it a chance. If you can do that, i am sure it will be A LOT more productive in reducing chances of these incidents happening again than arguing pointlessly online and trying to enforce unenforceable rules and restrictions.

[klingeme 1]

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Wow, lots of hate directed towards me today. I think it is worth noting the post I responded to, to understand my reasoning behind taking the opposite position as far as who is allowed to descend at what speeds. My attitude may seem cocky, to the point of ignoring safe advice, however this is not the case. I am all ears, and have formed my opinion not because I am only interested in doing something fun (spiraling) but because I truly believe it is not an unsafe thing to do. Let me explain myself.
What do you look for in someone who is flying a canopy in your vicinity? You are looking for someone to fly predictably. My previous post may have sounded as if I would be flying all over the sky, however I only meant "predictable" in the sense that you would know the exact direction they would be flying (the down wind leg) once you entered the pattern. Above that, you still want someone to fly predictably, but only as it pertains to avoiding getting too close to them. I think that one of the most predictable things you can do, is hold a spiral, going straight down. If you look at another jumper and try to calculate both of your trajectories, it is very easy to see the other jumper is only going down, and will not interfere with where you are trying to go.
But, what about the jumper above you? He might spiral down right in front of you and cause a collision. THEN HE SHOULD HAVE WATCHED OUT.
Think about someone in a hard spiral, and the range of view they have. The leading edge of the canopy is about at the horizon, and your feet are pointed about in the opposite direction. This means your 180 degree vertical view, and your better than 180 degree horizontal view (you check your blind spots when you change lanes in your car, don't you?) is directed straight down.
You can see everything below the horizon in all directions as you rotate!!!!! This gives you an outstanding ability to see traffic anywhere below you. Considering your higher than normal decent speed, and your direction of straight down, this makes it impossible for someone to hit you, and as long as you identify other traffic, makes it impossible for you to run into someone else. The only area you can't see is above you, and if someone runs into you from behind, then it is not your fault anyways.
If you are spinning, and see a canopy that is going to be traveling into the airspace below you, simply stop spinning! You are on top, and its your job to not fly down onto someone.
Maybe you will see as I do, spinning is highly predictable, and for the pilot, has great visibility.
So sure, don't jump with me, I don't really mind at all. I will tell you though, that I have never been told that my canopy practices are unsafe, and I keep my head moving much more so than many people I see.

Take this from someone who personally had a canopy collision with someone, and I was doing EXACTLY what you are talking about. I started spiralling at around 3500 ft down to around 2500. I was flying as fast as my "little" Stilleto 120 could take me. My video shows my "head on a swivel" looking in EVERY direction. Right as I come out of my spiraling, I had an instant (2 frames in the video) before impact. My chest hit his shoulder, our canopies wrapped together 1 full rotation, and thankfully, immediately recoiled and untwisted, leaving me gasping for the wind that had been knocked out of me and they other guy (who was build like a brick shithouse) wondering what the fuck just happened.

Head on a swivel DOES NOT ensure you will not kill someone. Since this, I don't think that I have ever spiraled more that 1 rotation, then stop, then 1 more.....


Mark Klingelhoefer

[kallend 2,106]

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swoopers like it or not your community is the one getting a black eye

That may be the case. But realize this. In the small community of swoopers, there are more well behaved, skilled and educated pilots then in most other disciplines. We train, we advance our skills and knowledge, we try to make it safer for all of us by passing that experience to the rest of the skydiving community.

Don't confuse skill with judgment. Some of the most highly skilled skydivers have died from exercising poor judgment.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[redlegphi 0]

To use the Thanatos trick:

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Separate swoop SPIRAL loads. Having separate loads for swoopersSPIRALERS ALL the time at ALL dropzones is just not possible, IMO. For many reasons. One - swoopers SPIRALERS want to freefall too. Two - like you said - swoopers SPIRALERS are a small community and there are not enough canopy pilots on a given day to fill up the plane JUST for swoop SPIRAL loads. Three - not all DZs allow separate low passes on busy days. I can think of a few more, but these should be enough.

The simple fact is that education and experience and skill are not enough to prevent even the best of swoopers from not seeing a lower, slower canopy and plowing right into him/her. This fact is evidenced all over the Incidents forum for the past two years. If your dropzone isn't large enough to have seperate landing areas (deconfliction through space) then swoopers need to get out earlier to ensure they're on the ground while the rest of the jumpers are getting set up in the pattern (deconfliction through time). If your DZ won't let you get out earlier, I'd suggest finding a new DZ. As Thanatos pointed out earlier, arguments that you should be allowed to jump a full-altitude skydive and then swoop into the main landing area just because you have the education to do so are as irresponsible and reckless as the argument that you should be allowed to spiral in the holding area.

[stayhigh 2]

Sprialing under big canopy so that you can land first is like....

Grandma driving 65 mph at first lane....
Grandma has every right to obey speed limit and drive there,,, but we all hate that grandma..... get the fuck off the road or atleast drive on slow lane.... cuz your slow ass is creating traffic,,, and traffic creates accidents....


Just don't be that grandma......

Bernie Sanders for President 2016

[rehmwa 2]

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Sounds more like someone opened 2nd under a large Main and somehow caught up (either opened low or sprialled down) , with someone opening first with a very loaded main.

A different topic on swoopers.

What about that highly loaded canopy - gets out in the front (first RW group out) gets to the bottom of the traffic (since he has a Vel 87 loaded heavily and "should" be on the bottom and landing first).

then

He sits in 3/4 brakes while trying to set up EXACTLY at 1200 feet precisely over his initiation point and floats the entire descent and everybody gets crushed into a lineup above him.

What do we do about that guy?

I see it a lot - Hot rods riding in brakes at the bottom of the lineup.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants