What happens to the raft?

[BillyVance 34]

I'm sure the reason you're getting these types of responses is they are noticing the number of jumps in your profile. It happens every time someone with low jump numbers asks about doing something dangerous. They all jump on them. Just let it roll off your shoulders.

But yes, heed the warnings...

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[DeNReN 0]

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Nova. I asked a simple question and expected a simple answer, which I received from several people who were very helpful. While I appreciate knowing the risks involved specifically - a comment like "it's not safe" isn't exactly helpful. I'm prefectly within my rights to chastise someone who's chastising me and offering no helpful advice what so ever. For them to assume I'm jumping in some rediculous get-up that will KILL me is totally uncalled for. They don't even know me. Help was what I was looking for. Not a finger wagging. It's not neccessary.

I'm sure that we can agree skydiving is not a safe sport. We're not playing golf, Nova, although I'm sure people have been injured doing that too. We have all decided that with the right precautions it is within our own individual realms of acceptable risk based on our own set of circumstances. Furthermore I can outline several million posts where people are chastised for saying skydiving IS safe with words in response to that statment like KILL and DIE and FATALITY, CRIPPLED, INJURED, DEAD. I also don't think I've ever had to sign a waiver with those words in it for golfing. Some people just like to take an opposite point of view regardless of the circumstances don't they?

Absolutely I has looking for help and advice from a more experienced skydiver. Why do you think I'm here to begin with? I've received it from others.

Please don't presume to know me, Nova. I could sit here and justify why I'm safe but you don't even know me so what does it matter? And it will result in further brow beating from others like you. I didn't ask for a safety lesson. All I asked for was "what happens to the raft" That's it. Although I will say that the constructive and detailed advice of other posts has been very helpfull and I'm glad to have read it and I did read it btw. Please don't presume that I haven't.

I think the point of this thread was achieved. Raft jumps are not safe and not a good idea much like many of the other things we do anyway. There are a lot of things that can go wrong. I'm glad to know that and really glad to know what those things are. I'm super glad for those pictures skymama posted. A picture is worth a thousand words. Also learned - the descent of the raft is not controlled and depends entirely on it drifing to a safe place on it's own. Someone had told me it would be fine to hang on to it like you'd hold onto a hoola hoop after a hoola hoop jump and that just sounded wrong to me. I'm glad I asked this question for those 2 things I've learned. I just don't like the finger wagging. It's totally unneccessary. I'm not a child. I'm asking for advice because I'm being smart about it. I wish that could be seen instead of this mess that's developed.

I think I'm in love

[Bertt 0]

The simple and correct answer to your question is that the raft is released, drifts with the wind, and falls to earth downwind from the exit point. Try to imagine what would have happened if that was the only reply you got to your question.

You don't have to outrun the bear.

[happythoughts 0]

my most recent raft jump at Skyfest

Ok, getting past some of the flaming and getting to some information, here is some observations.

First, you have a variety of questions and issues.

Immediately, I would say that a side-door exit with inflatable stuff has been done, but I never do it because of the small chance that it would be lost out the door and damage the horizontal stabilizer behind you.

So, you would want to use a tailgate aircraft.

Second, it is essentially a flatflyers piece exit.
You would be using a group of experienced flatflyers to get you off of the a/c. It is extremely rare that freeflyers can make it work. I hand-pick my 4 central launchers.

Next, an air mattress launch is quite different from a raft. Also, raft launches are different depending on the people in the raft.

The fallrate of any inflatable is slow (105-110).
Things can be down to speed it up a little.

Your participation is essentially being launched.
If you get committements from 4 good flatflyers who can launch a 6-way piece off a tailgate, and have access to a tailgate a/c, I will PM or post you detailed instructions. Otherwise, you are wasting your time.

The landing of the inflatable is the least of your worries. They have the fallrate of a canopy in half-brakes (my video person has bumped a raft with his feet - bad idea - never do that). I have had them land on the roof of an rv, and lawn chairs, with no damage. I have followed them down under canopy in brakes.

As others have said, there are dangers.
The primary safety consideration is to NEVER get above the inflatable. If the riders dump, it will knock a skydiver out, at the least.

[happythoughts 0]

On a separate note, if you jump with pajamas, you face the same issue as people who jump with t-shirts.

Any top that can become untucked can blow up and cover your handles. Not only could it blow up to cover your PC, but also your handles.

Make sure the top is securely tucked in.

Be safe. Have fun.

[Broke 0]

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Make sure the top is securely tucked in.

Be safe. Have fun.

Or you could leave the top off

Divot your source for all things Hillbilly.
Anvil Brother 84
SCR 14192

[cyn 0]

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On a separate note, if you jump with pajamas, you face the same issue as people who jump with t-shirts.

Any top that can become untucked can blow up and cover your handles. Not only could it blow up to cover your PC, but also your handles.

Make sure the top is securely tucked in.

Be safe. Have fun.

I have been told that before when I first came off student status & didnt' have to wear the smelly jumpsuits anymore with the baggy bums. We've also discussed the approval of each person's clothing choices based on safety. No ribbons flying around etc etc. For my part it's a toss up between a onesee (like footy pj's without the feet) or a tiny pair of pj shorts and a tank top. Will depend on the weather I guess.

btw thank you for your other post. That's some good info. All we have is a side door (caravan) to exit it out of so based on your advice & the advice of others I don't think this plan will fly this time. No biggie. We'll get it done under better circumstances.

Thanks so much for your help.

"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body"

[Rick 67]

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Those damn things float even when loaded with skydivers sitting in them and 5 or 6 hanging around the outside! If you don't get on it quickly enough, you're gonna sink out and go low. Waaaaay low.

you got that right Billy one of the raft dives we made at Skyfest my Pro-Track had 105 for the 2nd half average

You can't be drunk all day if you don't start early!

[chuteless 1]

I do not agree with your statement that Raft dives are the most dangerous jumps one can make. That is an unjustified alarmist statement.

I can think of many things to do in skydiving that are a bit more dangerous than a raft dive.

Keep an eye on the mattress pressure on the way up so it wont blow up on you in the aircraft.

When you leave the aircraft, the raft pressure will begin to decrease, by the time you get down, the raft will be like a wet rag, and flop about in the air with no stability, and ending up with no ( or little) pressure.

[NovaTTT 2]

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I'm sure that we can agree skydiving is not a safe sport.

No, we can't agree on that.

Skydiving is a dangerous sport, a sport with inherent risks. Skydiving is dangerous because the result of errors, mistakes, complacency, ignorance and/or stupidity can be SBI or death. It is a sport which is unforgiving to those factors.

Skydiving is made safe, however, through training and the use of precautions, techniques, procedures and equipment to manage those risks. Safety is not the same as the absence of risk.

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Some people just like to take an opposite point of view regardless of the circumstances don't they?

Which doesn't apply here as there is no "point of view" to oppose. Your question in itself raised legitimate safety concerns/issues that were addressed by a number of experienced jumpers who independently concluded a need to address those concerns.

Safety concerns and discussion are not a point of view opposite to skydiving in general nor to exceptional skydives in particular.

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Please don't presume to know me, Nova.

I don't. I can determine a few things by your comments, demeanor and jump statistics, but that has nothing to do with stressing safety to a young jumper. An important word in our sport is "think".

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I could sit here and justify why I'm safe

Please don't - you've misunderstood purposes from the beginning of this thread.

I will say again, FWIW, that in our dangerous sport we must and do look after each other. We watch our fellow jumpers packing, give gear/pin checks, inspect rigs and equipment before jumping, etc. We do this all the time, whether we are asked to or not. It becomes second nature.

We don't do these things to make ourselves and each other feel inadequate. We do it because we want to keep each other from making avoidable mistakes.

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I did read it btw. Please don't presume that I haven't.

cyn quote: "I didnt' see that at first."

That is in reference to the first response to your question. All I'm saying is - it doesn't seem like you put much effort into reading the replies and judging by your responses, didn't spend any time considering their merits.

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I think the point of this thread was achieved. Raft jumps are not safe

Is that the point of the thread? Raft jumps are not safe? I guess they aren't when done outside of one's experience level and/or without adequate training and guidance.

Raft jumps have more risks involved and greater opportunity(ies) for serious problem development but again, that doesn't mean unsafe. Again, safety is not the same as the absence of risk.

The point of this thread was to answer "What about the raft?" That question raised safety issues/concerns which have been discussed. Please remember that your question isn't for you alone - everyone who reads it, noob and experienced alike, can be influenced and learn from the discussion.

My only opinion on the matter of raft jumps is the same as my opinion on all jumps:

Have fun and be safe. Think.

Nova D17887

"Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

[Big_Red 0]

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Just don't do it. A raft dive is probably the most dangerous sky dive you can make. I've seen stuff i don't even want to discuss during raft dive exits.

Well that was about as useless a peice of advice as I have ever read. You guys need to understand that people are going to do these things whether you approve of it or not so unless you can give something more constructive then "Don't do it, it's dangerous" don't waste anyones times by posting.

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I think I will just stick to the lingerie load

Be careful! If pajama's can kill you who knows what some lingerie might do!
:P

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I'm sure the reason you're getting these types of responses is they are noticing the number of jumps in your profile.

What does that have to do with anything? I could put in my profile that I have a thousands of jumps and you can't verify that to save your life. So instead, like most people on here who think they are experienced, you make a random generalization based on a peice on information in a profile that you deem to be factual.

Even if that jump number were factual, there are alot of things that could increase her experience and/or knowledge and give her a superiour understanding of air flow and how objects will react when falling to earth.

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The simple and correct answer to your question is that the raft is released, drifts with the wind, and falls to earth downwind from the exit point. Try to imagine what would have happened if that was the only reply you got to your question.

I imagine...a kick ass jump...me and all my friends are smiling after having a good time with no incidents. The raft has drifted safely to earth. Wow...that wasn't so bad.
:P

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...Skydiving is made safe...

Err...Skydiving will never be "safe". I am sure what you meant to say in all your typed wisdom is that it can be made "safer".

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...addressed by a number of experienced jumpers...

Prove to me their experience level in comparison to mine. You can't cause once again we are simply basing this on their own opinion or that of their friends and a number which the legitimacy of I cannot verify.


Unfortunately, the sad thing about this place is that, that is all you people seem to do. Look the profile, make a generalization and then rant about safety or how dangerous it is or how we don't have the jump numbers to be doing these things. It gives the impression that if you had your way I would be sitting on the ground watching only those who were born with thousands of jumps and a knowledge of the sport surpased only by the Gods.

Sucks to think that your attitudes and the way you approach things makes people not want to post here. As I said at the beginning of this post. We will do these things whether you like it or not so if you can't teach me how to be safer then please...don't teach me at all.

Derec Davies
Big_Red

[billvon 2,990]

>Skydiving is not safe? That's news to me.

Skydiving is not a safe sport. You will almost surely be injured or killed if you exit an aircraft and then don't do anything.

Can it be made safe _enough_ for you to participate in it? That's up to you. The lengths that you are willing to go for safety, and your level of risk, will determine that.

But if you want a truly safe sport, I'd recommend bowling. About all you have to worry about there is dropping the ball on your toe, or drinking too much at the bar.

>If you realize the raft jump is not safe (paraphrase), then why would
>you do it? If skydiving is not safe, why then do you jump?

?? We all do things that are not safe for fun.

In the case of a raft dive, they are one of the more dangerous jumps one can make. I've seen several injuries and one cypres firing from the handful I've been involved with. They can be safe _enough_ to participate in, but due to a large number of factors, are never going to be as safe as an 8-way with the same bunch of people.

[jsaxton 0]

make sure that the handholds are NOT loops. There should be no way that anyone can get "stuck" to the inflatable, that could be VERY bad.

[pilotdave 0]

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Just don't do it. A raft dive is probably the most dangerous sky dive you can make. I've seen stuff i don't even want to discuss during raft dive exits.

Well that was about as useless a peice of advice as I have ever read. You guys need to understand that people are going to do these things whether you approve of it or not so unless you can give something more constructive then "Don't do it, it's dangerous" don't waste anyones times by posting.

"Don't do it" is a valid answer if that's what they believe is the best advice. If someone asked about jumping out of a plane with no rig, "don't do it" would be a pretty good response. But I know that they'd come back with "don't tell me not to do it, just tell me how to do it safely."

Dave

[cyn 0]

You know something Nova? This conversation with you, like many on dropzone.com, has turned into yet another rediculous lecture session on safety and everything I'm thinking and doing wrong without actually focusing on the question at hand and given constructive helpful answers to it.

I'm not interested in continuing this pointless debate with you. We shall have to just agree to disagree. Bottom line is we all are responsible for our own actions. If I do something stupid and it gets me killed I guess I'm the one that suffers, although I'm not that person. I wouldn't expect you to know that.

I resent the fact that you've conveniently snipped bits and pieces of my post to fabricate something that looks totally irresponsible and unreasonable. You've twisted my words so that they don't even read the way they were intended to, but the way you want them to so that you can prove your invalid points in a debate you've also created in your mind.

Guess what the good news is - you will probably never have to jump with my unsafe butt int he sky with your obviously very safe one and you will never have to go on a raft jump with me. That's the beauty of the world we live in. So many different points of view and so many differnt actions that will follow those different points of view. I believe this sport involves an element of risk that we are all very aware of and IN MY OPINION is inherently unsafe. We take precautions to make it less unsafe, but that does not make it a safe sport. Once again I'll use the words "acceptable risk". I'm afraid we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

I'm not really interested in addressing the rest of the things you've said. It will go nowhere. I knew that yesterday when I deleted the post I made last yesterday afternoon. Unfortunately someone had quoted it and I can't delete that. I guess I'll just find the helpful information in this thread and leave it at that.

Happy jumping. Stay safe

"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body"

[fastphil 0]

Cyn, keep turning your marshmellow and it won't burn on one side...

[NovaTTT 2]

I think you missed the message behind my posts entirely. You use an aggressive tone and words throughout this thread and seem to not have found the usefulness of my or others' posts.

Resent what you want - nothing was used out of context - but this isn't about you and me and I regret that you've chosen to ignore my words and focus on the person behind them instead. I am not attacking you so I don't understand your defensive nature. That defensiveness showed early in the thread when you said, in response to several answers: "holy christ people. I'm not an idiot. "

Like many experienced, long-time jumpers, I am willing to give advice when it is called for. Take it or not, that's not my concern, but one shouldn't smote the messenger. There is no harm in reading the good advice that many have given here.

As for jumping with you - were you to show up at my DZ you would be welcomed by all. It's a friendly DZ and I think only a bad attitude could interfere with that friendly encounter.

As for hurting nobody but yourself - well, when you have more experience(s) under your belt you might just see that is not the case. Despite what you appear to think, safety and safe practices are of paramount importance to our sport and can't be overemphasized.

Have fun and be safe. Think.

Nova D17887

"Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

[cyn 0]

I don't think I've missed the message behind your posts. You, think this is a safe sport, although you'll contrarily say that the people in it are the ones that make it unsafe. If there are piranhas in the water is the water safe? I don't even know why I'm allowing myself to get sucked into this argument. It's so rediculous. It doesn't matter. I get the message. You are inacapable of focusing on a question and giving an answer to it. While instead you'd chose to focus on the fact that I didn't appreciate people (including you), like many on dropzone.com, taking away from the original message at the beginning of the thread. A raft jump. At what point have you contributed anything useful about a raft jump? Not once accept to be safe which should be a consistant message about every jump and we all already know that. Be safe & think. Don't shoot the messenger if they give you an unsolicited piece of advice. That's your message? Ok. Enough said. Thanks. I get it.

Regarding your most recent post. My agressive attitute, if you'd read ALL of my posts, which you obviously have not, is only directed at people who are not contributing anything useful to the discussion at hand and instead have decided to jump in with their pious little nuggets about my attitude and me not thinking about killer pyjamas. If you started your own thread about my aggressive nature and unsafe attitude that you really know nothing about that would actually be more appropriate. Unfortunately THIS thread was about raft jumps and not my bad attitude toward pompous, self righteous, soap box ranters.

FWIW, Nova, I did apologize for my use of the words idiot and retarded at the beginning of this thread, but I guess you missed that. In my circle of friends we use these words all the time jokingly without batting an eyelash. It doesn't mean anything. I didn't consider that someone else might take offense to it and apologized when I found that they had, publicly and privately. Not that you would know that since it was none of your business and you instead decided to choose the pieces of my posts you wanted to pick apart without included the full sentence or message as it was intended.

In the end we are all responsible for our own actions and everyone is aware of the risks of what they are doing. We all seek out the advice of the more experienced helpful jumpers because we see it's value. That is why they have forums. For advice on topics we ask about. Not to be berated or made to feel inadequate for asking them. It's a shame that people like you are so concerned about people's experience levels and less concerned about the questions being asked. I'm sure it would be much more helpful to tell people how to make the jumps they are going to make anyways safer instead of berating them for trying to make them. It might save a life one day. Your message of safety will never be received well if it's coated with pompous self righteousness and a pious attitude. There's a little lesson from me to you based on MY experience as a human being.

Happy jumping. Be safe :)

"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body"

[Big_Red 0]

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"Don't do it" is a valid answer if that's what they believe is the best advice. If someone asked about jumping out of a plane with no rig, "don't do it" would be a pretty good response. But I know that they'd come back with "don't tell me not to do it, just tell me how to do it safely."

pilotdave, I hate to tell you but there is nothing constructive or helpful about telling me not to do something when my question is asking for advice on how to do it properly. If my question was "Should I do it?" then I agree, no don't do it, would be acceptable. But alas, this was not a question about whether anyone should or should not do anything but instead one asking for helpful advice. So, in that regards, "don't do it" is not helpful.

Now while I think your example was a poor one I would like to point out that if someone did want to jump from a plane without a rig (it has been done before...we have all seen the videos) then I think it would be helpful to give advice on how to do so with as much safety as could possibly be acheived in order to help increase the chances of them getting through the experience with little or no injury.

Derec Davies
Big_Red

[rwieder 0]

It's gemerally not the reaft dive itself that presents the ganger. Instead, it's the rafts that people buy to do the raft dives. Those cheap cheesy plastic rafts with all of rhe rope around the perimeter are so dangerous it's not evem funny. i've seen one of these almost take a sky divers life. I've also seen the stinking rope catch one of the starboard aft jumpers hackey on exit as soon as we got into clean air BOOM, the $4.00 USD raft explodes. We were using Hugh's Casa, it hung onto his hackey, i was under him still hanging onto the rope myself.I feared if i let go, it would wrap him up. The rope pulled his hackey out of the boc, pulling his lanyard until the lanyard pulled his closing pin deplying him instantly. I hung on to the raft for about 2 more seconds and let it go, never saw it again. The jumper who was deployed landed safely, but things could have been way differently. This is the biggest reason raft dives go wrong when they do. Cheap Ass Rafts. They are simply not designed to do what we do with them, nuff said. Don't even try a side exit, they suck....HARD.

When ever you take any device out of it's mechanical tolerances, bad things are sure to follow.

-Richard-
"You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall"

[cyn 0]

wowsa. that sounds like a pretty crappy scenario that I don't think I'd care to have happen. that seems to be the general concensus from all who have actually done raft jumps. No cheapies, no ropes & no side door exits. Understood.

"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body"

[rwieder 0]

Let me try and give you the benefit of a lesson i learned when i had less than 50 jumps, but boy, let me tell ya, i thought i knew it all. That's just normal. I got to quizzing one of my old jump masters about swooping. I said "Hey man, how do you make your canopy fly like that. His response was, when YOU CAN TELL ME everything there is to possibly know about the mechanice of swooping, i'll teach you how"

One of the most profound lessons i've ever learned. Skydiving is very dangerous, there's no since in adding another dangerous element to it to make it more dangerous.

If i have a car tht will go 200 MPH, would i put onto the track with sub par tires? Of course not.

If this raft dive is something you really want to do, then fine. Just make sure you don't use a $4.00 USD Raft, have at lease 4 experienced sky divers who have done them succesfully. (Videots don't count, they're just flying camera) Please don't use a side exit jump ship. Communicate with the pilot to insure the 5-4-3-2-1 Zero-G then bail. If this sequence doesn't happen as it should, who knows what will happen next? Most of the time sky divers use the cheapy rafts is because when you exit the raft, you'll probably never see it again. Visit with the S&TA as well, communitate with him, plan your dive, and dive your plan.

-Richard-
"You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall"

[cyn 0]

hmmm. I'm not sure if that last message was you thinking I didnt get what you were saying in your first message. I definitely do and was just re-itterating what others had said in posts like yours about the actual do's and dont's.

In addition I think someone posted something or sent me a PM about following the raft down in deep breaks & having a friend with a pick up truck watch the load to see where you and the raft land. This person is way out in the country though and specified that landing safely is always #1. Landing with the raft or watching the raft are obviously #2 priority. Following the raft down won't work in every situation. Depends on a lot of things. So if you're lucky and everything goes according to plan it's apparently quite possible to re-use a raft several times before you lose it or it wears out. Besides, if everyone's chipping in on the cost of the raft it shouldn't be that big of a problem to pay for a decent one. If you manage to save it you can leave it at the DZ for other people. :)

"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body"

[yarak 0]

Ive done a couple of side door exits, One good, one bad. Its not easy and will more than likely be a waste of time.

If you want a real challenge try taking a raft uninflated out the door of a king air and inflating it in freefall. Then put people in it. That takes coordination. But to answer your question: "What happens to the raft"? It suffers a hard impact and becomes retarded.

Cyn, people on here rarely give good advice. They are all so sensitive. They dont really care about helping you. They would rather try to tear your post apart some way and pick at it like vultures on a carcass. They will take things out of context quicker than a angry girlfriend. There are some helpful people here but most just want to try to act like they know it all and those people have very self righteous attitudes. Its been proven that there is a certain personality type that you find dominating forums. These people prove that study right. If you want some good advice you should keep your search confined to your local DZ. Ask people there that you know, trust, and respect. Advice that you get here can ony be taken with a grain of salt, simply because you do not know these people. I dont care what the jump number in thier profile says, That doesnt prove experience in a specific area, currency, intelligence, or correctness.

I'll huff and I'll puff and I'll burn your fucking packing tent down.

[cyn 0]

amen.

"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body"