chest strap under canopy?

[pilot-one 0]

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Sigh....

I'm gonna stop bothering with this forum.

I dont know if that is what Brian teaches, but I doubt it.

And I honestly dont care if Brian teaches fussing with the slider and strap that much at 50 jumps; I think he is wrong to advoicate this.

Why would you doubt it? I was there and that is exactly what he taught. He also helped put a device on my risers to hold the canopy down. Are you suggesting I'm lying?

Who would you listen to? Some guy with 1800 jumps on the internet or to an accomplished canopy designer, swooper, inventor, teacher, lecturer, rigger, pilot , etc. with over 10,000 jumps whose 2 day course you attended with major improvments in canopy flying skills?
Thank you very much but I'll stick with Brian.

Oh.. also I don't think loosening the chest strap and leaving the slider up is going to improve the performance that much. Leaving the slider up kind of defeats the whole purpose.

[Remster 30]

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Why would you doubt it? I was there and that is exactly what he taught. He also helped put a device on my risers to hold the canopy down. Are you suggesting I'm lying

I was refering to poping the toggles AND THEN loosening the chest strap. See the bolded line. Feel free to ask Brian about that one.

Remster

[pilot-one 0]

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Feel free to ask Brian about that one

I did.

Just to make it clear the suggestion is to check for and be clear of traffic, collapse and then stow the slider, release toggles and perform canopy control check and then finally loosen the chest strap. I can't see where any other way would make sense.

[Remster 30]

You should not let go of your toggles once you pop them... But what do I know.

Remster

[phoenixlpr 0]

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You should not let go of your toggles once you pop them... But what do I know.

Risers with velcro come handy. I can stick them back.

[ianmdrennan 2]

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Feel free to ask Brian about that one

I did.

Just to make it clear the suggestion is to check for and be clear of traffic, collapse and then stow the slider, release toggles and perform canopy control check and then finally loosen the chest strap. I can't see where any other way would make sense.

You're wrong on this one. Chest strap should be loosened BEFORE popping the toggles (for a number of reasons).

Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[pilot-one 0]

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You should not let go of your toggles once you pop them... But what do I know.

Who said any thing about letting go of the toggles?

[pilotdave 0]

I don't usually loosen my chest strap, and i never pull my slider down (i have slider stops on my slinks). But when I do loosen my chest strap, i do it with my toggles in my hands. It's not a big deal... flare with both hands to my chest and pull on the chest strap hardware with my right hand. We all know its a bad idea to keep your toggles stowed until low altitude because you might find a malfunction when you unstow them. I'd rather have my chest strap tight at that point.
Personally I hate seeing new jumpers pulling their slider down. I think it takes their attention from more important things and isn't necessary. And when they use a bungee cord to hold the slider down, that's even worse. I think most new jumpers that pull their slider down only do it because that's what the cool people do.

Dave

[daremrc 0]

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***You're wrong on this one. Chest strap should be loosened BEFORE popping the toggles (for a number of reasons).

Ian

What are the reasons? I do my slider housekeeping before I pop the toggles, but will sometimes bring my hands down with toggles in them to loosen the chest strap.

Good judgement comes from experience, and most of that comes from bad judgement.

[pilot-one 0]

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You're wrong on this one. Chest strap should be loosened BEFORE popping the toggles (for a number of reasons).

I don't think so. However you are entitled to your own opinion.
Tell me one good reason why you should not pop your toggles first and then loosen your chest strap.
It doesn't make sense. If you find you have a problem with canopy control why not cut away with a tightened chest strap? I can't think of one reason that would supercede.
Not to mention coming from Brian Germain who is one of, if not the premier experts in the field I would find it difficult to believe otherwise.

[jacketsdb23 49]

Ian....I too would be interested in reasons for loosening the chest strap before popping toggles. I bring my slider down, pop the toggles, then loosen the chest strap with my toggles still in hand.

Thanks for any input.

Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen
God is Good
Beer is Great
Swoopers are crazy.

[jg4101 0]

I don't like name dropping, but I did a well known canopy course recently. I was taught that, for nearly all of us, undoing the chest strap has little effect on the shape of the canopy, which in turn has little effect on the flight performance.

I was told that the reason for loosening the chest strap was to make it easier to fly the canopy with our bodies; i.e. harness and combination turns. It certainly makes sense to me - I find it much more comfortable and easier to lean in the harness with the chest strap loosened off.

[ianmdrennan 2]

Couple of things to note here:

1) Never put all your faith in 1 teacher. Everyone can get it wrong at some point, unintentionally - not to mention methodologies and practices are evolutionary - not static.

2) If you're popping your toggles (and then letting go) you're far more likely to have a toggle wrap around the riser (happens a lot in freestyle tricks - there's one reason for you). Not only that but you are now messing around with stuff in FULL FLIGHT at FULL SPEED both horizontally and vertically (There's another reason for you), and finally when canopy sizes get really small and twitchy, it'll be an absolute pain in the ass to keep the wing flying straight and level while releasing your chest strap if the toggles are in your hands.

You have your beliefs, I have mine.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[rocketscientist 0]

i did not think this would generate so much response, and debate, what seemed so simple of a question. i feel for now i will just stow my slider, keep my chest strap tight, and try not to cross the beer line. oh and take a control course.

My inner child is a mean little fucker

[jakee 1,489]

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I was taught that, for nearly all of us, undoing the chest strap has little effect on the shape of the canopy, which in turn has little effect on the flight performance.

Really? When I pull down the slider and undo the chest strap on a square Sabre1 150 loaded at 1.1 the difference in feel in flight is extremely noticeable. I can only imagine it being more so under smaller and higher loaded canopies.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[pilot-one 0]

***I don't like name dropping, but I did a well known canopy course recently. I was taught that, for nearly all of us, undoing the chest strap has little effect on the shape of the canopy, which in turn has little effect on the flight performance.***

I agree. You must also bring the slider down to effectively spread the line groups apart.

There is no way by doing this that it would not change the shape of the wing. The only way it wouldn't would be if the width of the canopy was the same as the distance between the 3 ring on your harness.

Also, I don't put my faith into one teacher. I simply stated that one of the premeire experts teaches this method.

It may be possible that with a twitchy little canopy you can't hold your toggles while reaching for the chest strap. That however is not a problem for me. I still am not convinced that poping the toggles secondly is a good idea.

[denete 3]

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Ian....I too would be interested in reasons for loosening the chest strap before popping toggles. I bring my slider down, pop the toggles, then loosen the chest strap with my toggles still in hand.

Is your buckle on the right side of your body? If it takes two hands to loosen the chest strap, wouldn't that put you into a left-hand turn...while you're looking down to your right? Sure, you're only looking down there for a second, but

This whole thread brings up some good questions about "the routine" that happens once you've got a canopy overhead. I'm not going to say what I do (), but I am curious about what you old timers do.

- David

SCR #14809

"our attitude is the thing most capable of keeping us safe"
(look, grab, look, grab, peel, punch, punch, arch)

[jacketsdb23 49]

To be honest...i'm not even looking at my chest strap when I do it. With my XF2 I can "flare" the canopy use my right hand to loosen the chest strap and not even skip a beat.

Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen
God is Good
Beer is Great
Swoopers are crazy.

[d123 3]

Placing the slider over my sholders reduced my sideway to back visibility. Cuting away with the slider docked scares me! I've bought and install slink covers to block the slider. I still colapse it!

Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls!

[champu 1]

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Placing the slider over my sholders reduced my sideway to back visibility. Cuting away with the slider docked scares me! I've bought and install slink covers to block the slider. I still colapse it!

On one hand I'm not a fan of the bungie + rubber band method of stowing the slider. On the other hand I'm not a fan of having my slider catch air and fly into my control system while I'm in the middle of a 270. So...

I had my rigger sew a couple wraps of webbing around my front risers a few inches above the rings and that's all it takes to catch the slider grommets and keep them down. I've seen more elaborate tabs added to risers, but it really doesn't take that much, and these are very unobtrusive.

[NoShitThereIWas 0]

Open it up baby, let that canopy breathe that RAM air!

OK after reading some other posts, maybe I should be a little more conservative in my answer (especially with my ratings)

My first response would be open it up. But what I probably should have asked you first is: #1 How comfortable are you after you open with looking out for traffic and doing your checks, collapsing your slider, etc. If you are already on any kind of overload, the last thing you really need to worry about is opening your chest strap. It is not really high priority. It does in my opinion however allow the canopy to fly more the way it was designed to fly through the air without being choked. Depending on the canopy and the wingloading, it may not make that much of a difference.

I usually dump, check over back, check canopy, open, stow slider while looking for traffic, open chest strap, grab toggles, control check and fly.

I would also throw in there the use of risers to steer to avoid traffic but I have the nice luxury of not having to use my hands to steer, I just lean

Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires."

Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."

[rocketscientist 0]

i do not feel i am overloaded (traffic, stowing slider, etc.) under canopy. so i do not feel it would be that much of a prob doing, something to get use to, but not a problem and/or hassel. which brought me to another question, are newly desinged canopy's, when they are being tested by the manufacturers, are said pilots loosening their cheststraps. if so that just starts a whole new round of questions for me.

My inner child is a mean little fucker

[quade 4]

Have you changed canopies?

The canopy listed in your profile is in no way, shape or form "newly designed," nor at the size listed, will find significant gains by loosening your chest strap.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[rocketscientist 0]

no i still have the same sabre 1 190. i was, at the end of last year looking at a new sabre 2 190 my local dz had on hand from pd for demos. this is what made me ask the question. from what i have read it seems loosening the chest strap does have some performance boosts even in larger canopy's. so if there is a noticiable difference in performance and handling, and are being tested with loose chest straps as a way of setting base line specs. would i be wrong to say the canopy based just on that will not perform the same if the strap is not loosened? i am also, not in any way trying to compare myself to the manufacturers test pilots. also if larger canopys do not show significant gains, why do accuracy jumpers with canopy's as big or bigger seem to follow the trend? (see pic in previous post where jumper has completly undone cs)

My inner child is a mean little fucker

[quade 4]

Accuracy jumpers on rounds do it so they can see DOWN a little better. My guess is you'd never seen a classic accuracy competition, but it actually has very little to do with a "normal" landing.

Now, what I'd like you to do is a little bit of a thought experiment, but first I gotta ask you; "how much do you know about triangles?"

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver