Squeak 17 #1 June 18, 2008 does your DZ encourage the use of them,. A lot of DZ here in OZ dont Mine does and so too do the jumpers there.You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #2 June 18, 2008 That's a very interesting article. I have the dubious "pleasure" of having been in a 182 crash/off field landing. Everyone on board was wearing seatbelts and I firmly believe that having proper restraints AND the pilot reacting 100% correctly is why we all lived. Not only that, but not a single person was injured. Thank you again PilotMike, you saved my life that day five years ago.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #3 June 18, 2008 I will chew a fellow jumper out if they aren't wearing one. I don't need to be killed by your body, or your camera helmet when it could have been a survivable crash. "The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NickDG 23 #4 June 19, 2008 Right after the Perris Otter crash Sandy Reid suggested a hook in method for skydiving harnesses. You would just clip in to a floor mounted anchor. It made sense, since you were already wearing the best body harness ever. But FAA bullshit (not invented here) and the overall liability aspect of it squashed the whole idea. So just sit there and die, that's what you paid 22 bucks for . . . NickD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #5 June 19, 2008 Quote Right after the Perris Otter crash Sandy Reid suggested a hook in method for skydiving harnesses. You would just clip in to a floor mounted anchor. It made sense, since you were already wearing the best body harness ever. But FAA bullshit (not invented here) and the overall liability aspect of it squashed the whole idea. So just sit there and die, that's what you paid 22 bucks for . . . NickD I noticed that at the DZs i visited in the States that they all use the same type of 2 strap old seat belt method. We here in OZ use a Single point quick release hook (like a BIG RSL clip) that you attach to your harness. It has been shown that they have a downside when under load, a Tandem exited the plane still attached and the load prevented it from releasing.You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kefran 0 #6 June 19, 2008 here in Can we still use the good ol' seat belt method, and we have to get secured to take off ... as all our stock (cams, helmets ...) have to be.-------------------------------------------------- I never used 2 rocks to start a fire ... this is called evolution ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #7 June 19, 2008 Most US otters I have been in, I think Larry Hill's planes were the exception, have had single point systems not lap belts."The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #8 June 19, 2008 They are still approved aircraft seatbelts, not the clips that squeak was describing. They just attach to the aircraft at one point. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #9 June 19, 2008 I was responding to this comment by Squeek. QuoteI noticed that at the DZs i visited in the States that they all use the same type of 2 strap old seat belt method. I know that they are aproved restraint systems."The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vpjr 18 #10 June 19, 2008 http://www.faa.gov/library/reports/medical/oamtechreports/1990s/media/9811.pdf Better than submarining out of a lap belt while sitting on the floor of an airplane. Please make sure you are using TSOed Hooker Harness Tag Line belts ( Im not their salesman ) I have seen DZ made belts that look like tag lines but in an accident they would tighten down on your harness and you couldnt get them off durring the resulting fire. Please place them through your main lift web instead of your leg strap. Your head will travel shorter distances in the crash, it is harder to forget to remove and make it half way out of a Cessna U206 still wearing it. A couple of people know what I am talking about. Spell check locks up my browzer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
divnswoop 0 #11 June 19, 2008 Does anybody know the details of the 03E twin otter crash in Missouri? I had *heard* that all the single point seatbelts failed in that (relatively soft) crash. Single point attachments are fairly common in the planes I have jumped. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vpjr 18 #12 June 19, 2008 These TSOed restraints are only certified to 6Gs. Most Cessna seat belt attach points are also just 6 Gs. If you take a close look it is only a little aluminum track or thin skins riveted together holding you in place. 203E was crushed to Station 111. Not a soft crash. Ill bet much greater than 6 Gs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
aresye 0 #13 June 19, 2008 I'm having a tough time picturing these single point restraints. I can only imagine they're similar to the gunner's belts we wear in our helo.Skydiving: You either learn from other's mistakes, or they'll learn from yours. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #14 June 19, 2008 Quote A couple of people know what I am talking about. Spell check locks up my browzer. I haven't the faintest idea. "The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,314 #15 June 19, 2008 http://www.faa.gov/library/reports/medical/oamtechreports/1990s/media/9811.pdf Pics are in the document hyperlink vpjr provided.Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #16 June 19, 2008 Good article, thenks for that. They still look to be a seat belt type buckling system. how do these fare underload?You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #17 June 20, 2008 QuoteRight after the Perris Otter crash Sandy Reid suggested a hook in method for skydiving harnesses. You would just clip in to a floor mounted anchor. It made sense, since you were already wearing the best body harness ever. But FAA bullshit (not invented here) and the overall liability aspect of it squashed the whole idea. ..................................................................... That was all a plot - by Sandy - to sell more Flexons ... seeing as how Flexon was the first rig built with hip rings. Tee! Hee! In 1997, Sandy told me to prepare a Flexon, Racer, Javelin, etc. for the FAA crash sled tests that resulted in the 1998 report mentioned by another poster. After Sandy showed us the third video of crash sled tests, we replied "ho hum, Hooker's System will save a few lives, now we have to get back to work." When I spoke to Jack Hooker last month, he reassured me that he had sold plenty of belts in Canada, but Transport Canada (Federal gov't equivalent of the FAA) still gives some DZOs a hard time about installing anything except for stock Cessna seatbelts. Speaking of stock Cessna seatbelts ... last month I hooked one around the back of my shoe. I was lucky that the shoe came off on exit, but my foot still throbs! My opinion of stock Cessna seatbelts cannot be repeated in polite company! ^%$#@! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites novacaine 0 #18 June 20, 2008 QuoteWhen I spoke to Jack Hooker last month, he reassured me that he had sold plenty of belts in Canada, but Transport Canada (Federal gov't equivalent of the FAA) still gives some DZOs a hard time about installing anything except for stock Cessna seatbelts.Quote Rob, outside of Skydiving where else would this type of restraint be usefull? Since most GA planes have proper seats. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 643 #19 June 20, 2008 QuoteQuoteWhen I spoke to Jack Hooker last month, he reassured me that he had sold plenty of belts in Canada, but Transport Canada (Federal gov't equivalent of the FAA) still gives some DZOs a hard time about installing anything except for stock Cessna seatbelts.Quote Rob, outside of Skydiving where else would this type of restraint be usefull? Since most GA planes have proper seats. .................................................................... You are correct. There are few legitimate uses for Hooker Tag Line Belts, except for skydiving. Even most bush planes (Twin Otters, Hueys, etc.) have folding cloth seats that work with stock setbelts. I am just frustrated over Transport Canada's hypocritical attitude of legally requiring seatbelts be installed in jump planes, but refusing to approve the only system that works for skydivers. Think about it ... Air Forces with billion dollar budgets were never able to invent a decent restraint system for parachutists, but a red neck engineer like Jack hooker developed a workable system for 1/100 the price. Some times red necks get it right. Maybe I am grumpy because my foot still throbs a month after a disagreement with a stock Cessna seatbelt. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,991 #20 June 20, 2008 >It made sense, since you were already wearing the best body harness ever. Skydiving harnesses are designed to take load in one direction only. If you "clipped into" a lateral or a chest strap, you'd see failure faster than you can say "lawsuit." Now, if manufacturers made it a point to design a single hardpoint for attachment of a restraint, it wouldn't be hard at all, and the system would be fairly robust. But so far to my knowledge no one has done that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 643 #21 June 20, 2008 Think hip rings. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,991 #22 June 20, 2008 > Think hip rings. Think being ejected out the top of the rig. Rigs aren't designed to retain you in that position; I know most of our students would go sailing out of our Telesis harnesses without too much trouble. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites vpjr 18 #23 June 20, 2008 Im sure the aircraft seat belt attach point would fail first. I think the main lift web would not fail that easy. The sled test didnt show any ejections of the dummys out of the harnesses or major harness failures at the required 6 Gs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,991 #24 June 20, 2008 > Im sure the aircraft seat belt attach point would fail first. I think the >main lift web would not fail that easy. Right - but if you just had, say, a carabiner, it would often get hooked to chest and lateral straps - and those do fail pretty quickly. You'd have to design in an attachment point to be used with such a system (or have a separate harness system.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites matt6242 0 #25 June 20, 2008 Damn, What happened, did the pilot lay her down softly? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
novacaine 0 #18 June 20, 2008 QuoteWhen I spoke to Jack Hooker last month, he reassured me that he had sold plenty of belts in Canada, but Transport Canada (Federal gov't equivalent of the FAA) still gives some DZOs a hard time about installing anything except for stock Cessna seatbelts.Quote Rob, outside of Skydiving where else would this type of restraint be usefull? Since most GA planes have proper seats. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 643 #19 June 20, 2008 QuoteQuoteWhen I spoke to Jack Hooker last month, he reassured me that he had sold plenty of belts in Canada, but Transport Canada (Federal gov't equivalent of the FAA) still gives some DZOs a hard time about installing anything except for stock Cessna seatbelts.Quote Rob, outside of Skydiving where else would this type of restraint be usefull? Since most GA planes have proper seats. .................................................................... You are correct. There are few legitimate uses for Hooker Tag Line Belts, except for skydiving. Even most bush planes (Twin Otters, Hueys, etc.) have folding cloth seats that work with stock setbelts. I am just frustrated over Transport Canada's hypocritical attitude of legally requiring seatbelts be installed in jump planes, but refusing to approve the only system that works for skydivers. Think about it ... Air Forces with billion dollar budgets were never able to invent a decent restraint system for parachutists, but a red neck engineer like Jack hooker developed a workable system for 1/100 the price. Some times red necks get it right. Maybe I am grumpy because my foot still throbs a month after a disagreement with a stock Cessna seatbelt. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,991 #20 June 20, 2008 >It made sense, since you were already wearing the best body harness ever. Skydiving harnesses are designed to take load in one direction only. If you "clipped into" a lateral or a chest strap, you'd see failure faster than you can say "lawsuit." Now, if manufacturers made it a point to design a single hardpoint for attachment of a restraint, it wouldn't be hard at all, and the system would be fairly robust. But so far to my knowledge no one has done that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 643 #21 June 20, 2008 Think hip rings. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,991 #22 June 20, 2008 > Think hip rings. Think being ejected out the top of the rig. Rigs aren't designed to retain you in that position; I know most of our students would go sailing out of our Telesis harnesses without too much trouble. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites vpjr 18 #23 June 20, 2008 Im sure the aircraft seat belt attach point would fail first. I think the main lift web would not fail that easy. The sled test didnt show any ejections of the dummys out of the harnesses or major harness failures at the required 6 Gs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,991 #24 June 20, 2008 > Im sure the aircraft seat belt attach point would fail first. I think the >main lift web would not fail that easy. Right - but if you just had, say, a carabiner, it would often get hooked to chest and lateral straps - and those do fail pretty quickly. You'd have to design in an attachment point to be used with such a system (or have a separate harness system.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites matt6242 0 #25 June 20, 2008 Damn, What happened, did the pilot lay her down softly? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
riggerrob 643 #19 June 20, 2008 QuoteQuoteWhen I spoke to Jack Hooker last month, he reassured me that he had sold plenty of belts in Canada, but Transport Canada (Federal gov't equivalent of the FAA) still gives some DZOs a hard time about installing anything except for stock Cessna seatbelts.Quote Rob, outside of Skydiving where else would this type of restraint be usefull? Since most GA planes have proper seats. .................................................................... You are correct. There are few legitimate uses for Hooker Tag Line Belts, except for skydiving. Even most bush planes (Twin Otters, Hueys, etc.) have folding cloth seats that work with stock setbelts. I am just frustrated over Transport Canada's hypocritical attitude of legally requiring seatbelts be installed in jump planes, but refusing to approve the only system that works for skydivers. Think about it ... Air Forces with billion dollar budgets were never able to invent a decent restraint system for parachutists, but a red neck engineer like Jack hooker developed a workable system for 1/100 the price. Some times red necks get it right. Maybe I am grumpy because my foot still throbs a month after a disagreement with a stock Cessna seatbelt. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,991 #20 June 20, 2008 >It made sense, since you were already wearing the best body harness ever. Skydiving harnesses are designed to take load in one direction only. If you "clipped into" a lateral or a chest strap, you'd see failure faster than you can say "lawsuit." Now, if manufacturers made it a point to design a single hardpoint for attachment of a restraint, it wouldn't be hard at all, and the system would be fairly robust. But so far to my knowledge no one has done that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 643 #21 June 20, 2008 Think hip rings. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,991 #22 June 20, 2008 > Think hip rings. Think being ejected out the top of the rig. Rigs aren't designed to retain you in that position; I know most of our students would go sailing out of our Telesis harnesses without too much trouble. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites vpjr 18 #23 June 20, 2008 Im sure the aircraft seat belt attach point would fail first. I think the main lift web would not fail that easy. The sled test didnt show any ejections of the dummys out of the harnesses or major harness failures at the required 6 Gs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,991 #24 June 20, 2008 > Im sure the aircraft seat belt attach point would fail first. I think the >main lift web would not fail that easy. Right - but if you just had, say, a carabiner, it would often get hooked to chest and lateral straps - and those do fail pretty quickly. You'd have to design in an attachment point to be used with such a system (or have a separate harness system.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites matt6242 0 #25 June 20, 2008 Damn, What happened, did the pilot lay her down softly? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
billvon 2,991 #20 June 20, 2008 >It made sense, since you were already wearing the best body harness ever. Skydiving harnesses are designed to take load in one direction only. If you "clipped into" a lateral or a chest strap, you'd see failure faster than you can say "lawsuit." Now, if manufacturers made it a point to design a single hardpoint for attachment of a restraint, it wouldn't be hard at all, and the system would be fairly robust. But so far to my knowledge no one has done that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #21 June 20, 2008 Think hip rings. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #22 June 20, 2008 > Think hip rings. Think being ejected out the top of the rig. Rigs aren't designed to retain you in that position; I know most of our students would go sailing out of our Telesis harnesses without too much trouble. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vpjr 18 #23 June 20, 2008 Im sure the aircraft seat belt attach point would fail first. I think the main lift web would not fail that easy. The sled test didnt show any ejections of the dummys out of the harnesses or major harness failures at the required 6 Gs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #24 June 20, 2008 > Im sure the aircraft seat belt attach point would fail first. I think the >main lift web would not fail that easy. Right - but if you just had, say, a carabiner, it would often get hooked to chest and lateral straps - and those do fail pretty quickly. You'd have to design in an attachment point to be used with such a system (or have a separate harness system.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matt6242 0 #25 June 20, 2008 Damn, What happened, did the pilot lay her down softly? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
