bodypilot90 0 #1 March 12, 2008 I was chatting with a friend who is new to the sport with 170 jumps. He is jumping a saber2 150 and exit weight is about 215. PD says this is expert wing loading. He said he's been trained and is ok with the risks. Then I ask one of his "canopy mentors" Mr. mentor said that he'd be ok. I asked what about landing out. His reply "He knows how to spot so that will not be a problem." Then I hear the newbie is getting a 135. Is everyone nuts, or am I a safety nazi for thinking this does not look like a good idea? Does everyone who lands out not know how to spot? Less than year in the sport and flirting with disaster? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BillyVance 34 #2 March 12, 2008 Add his name to the bounce bingo board. "Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #3 March 12, 2008 Never met anyone with 170 jumps that knows how to spot. But either way, I don't see the relevance. Everyone is nuts. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BillyVance 34 #4 March 12, 2008 Quote Never met anyone with 170 jumps that knows how to spot. Dave I knew how to... one of the benefits of making a lot of early jumps at a C182 DZ. Wingloading is still a completely different thing though. I do think 1.4333 is bordering on the ridiculous at that experience level... He might be okay if he was conservative on landing approaches and never misses the DZ or has a bad spot or gets cut off down low or flies through air burbles, etc... Just pull up a lawn chair with video camera and wait... and do what Beezy would do with it. "Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
millertime24 8 #5 March 12, 2008 Spoting Made Simple- 1. Red light comes on 2. Red light goes out and green light turns on 3. Open door and look down VERY briefly (weather you know what you're looking for or not) 4. Go See simple. GPS takes all the guess work out of spotting. While this method usually works it doesnt always work. BTW, this post was generated under the uttermost conditions of sarcasm.Muff #5048 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #6 March 12, 2008 Quote Never met anyone with 170 jumps that knows how to spot. But either way, I don't see the relevance. Everyone is nuts. Dave You know too many turbine brats."The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kimemerson 7 #7 March 12, 2008 •Ram airs+Otters+laziness=spotting as lost art. •Wide-eyed newbie+Mr. Mentor (aka Mr. Ignorant/stupid/irresponsible as hell)= gonna die. Or hurt enough to wish to die. One of the wisest, most sage bits on this thread is the bounce bingo suggestion.Line up & get yer tickets. Our equipment & advanced training has wreaked havoc with Darwin in skydiving. We can only be thankful for the human factor to fill the gap and thin the herd of the weak. I say let the bugger jump Luigi Cani's discards and make room for the rest of us. The sport is getting a tad crowded anyway. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Colson 0 #8 March 12, 2008 Im curious, why do alot of people consider it so fashionable to downsize to "expert" wingloadings as quickly as possible, it seems to be a continous question "when can I downsize". Just having to ask that question would seem like a sign that they should not. What does immediately getting to the smallest size possible get you? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,489 #9 March 12, 2008 QuoteIm curious, why do alot of people consider it so fashionable to downsize to "expert" wingloadings as quickly as possible, Because small canopies are fast and responsive. Fast + responsive = instant fun.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virulindex 0 #10 March 12, 2008 Obviously I can't speak for anyone but myself but I'm not even done with AFF yet and I've already asked that question. I didn't ask because I was itching to get under a smaller canopy, I simply like to know what the hell I'm doing and that includes knowing everything I possibly can about these weird sheets of fabric that save my life every time I come barreling down at a hundred+ miles an hour. I think there have to be a few newbies like myself who are looking forward to SOMEDAY having a wingload in excess of .8 yet are extremely wary of the risks involved with getting ahead of ourselves. Exit weight: 210. Canopy: 260. And it's going to stay that way for quite a while. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jacketsdb23 49 #11 March 12, 2008 QuoteQuoteIm curious, why do alot of people consider it so fashionable to downsize to "expert" wingloadings as quickly as possible, Because small canopies are fast and responsive. Fast + responsive = instant fun. If the most experienced jumpers at a drop zone were jumping a 300 square ft Challenger and landing on an accuracy pad...my bet is that is what everyone would want to jump. New jumpers want to downsize because they want to fit in with the swooping crowd - whether they have the ability to or not. And most of the time...there is no one to put their foot down and say no you can't do it. New jumpers don't realize that many of the swoopers have been in the sport for multiple years. Who are the best canopy pilots at your drop zone? What do they jump? I can tell you the best pilots at my DZ jump Velo's. New jumpers think they will never get to that ability by jumping a 190 square foot boat...so they downsize, and again..nobody says no. Nobody is saying no because everyone is desensitized to it. So many people downsize to early that its becoming the norm. I am probably one of them.Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen God is Good Beer is Great Swoopers are crazy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jacketsdb23 49 #12 March 12, 2008 Quote Quote Never met anyone with 170 jumps that knows how to spot. Dave I knew how to... one of the benefits of making a lot of early jumps at a C182 DZ. I had a round reserve for my first 17 jumps. If you had a reserve ride you damn well wanted to be close to the dropzone. We also used to use....ready gasp....wind drift indicators!!! You learned how to spot very quickly and got damn good at it. I'd argue that the real purpose of spotting nowadays is to check the airspace for aircraft, get a read on groundspeed and to get yourself "close" to the dropzone. There are not a lot of sub 100 jump skydivers who would volunteer to spot a big otter load and I think that is to bad. Ok - back to wingloading Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen God is Good Beer is Great Swoopers are crazy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #13 March 13, 2008 Quote...New jumpers think they will never get to that ability by jumping a 190 square foot boat...so they downsize, and again..nobody says no. Nobody is saying no because everyone is desensitized to it. So many people downsize to early that its becoming the norm. I am probably one of them. Yep. AND you just propagated the idea that smaller is better...AND added to the desensitization...AND added to making it become the norm. On behalf of all the youngsters getting hurt under the dishrags, thanks.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BillyVance 34 #14 March 13, 2008 Quote Quote Quote Never met anyone with 170 jumps that knows how to spot. Dave I knew how to... one of the benefits of making a lot of early jumps at a C182 DZ. I had a round reserve for my first 17 jumps. If you had a reserve ride you damn well wanted to be close to the dropzone. We also used to use....ready gasp....wind drift indicators!!! You learned how to spot very quickly and got damn good at it.. I still use WDIs... on Demo jumps... "Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ficus 0 #15 March 13, 2008 QuoteQuoteby jumping a 190 square foot boat Yep. AND you just propagated the idea that smaller is better...AND added to the desensitization...AND added to making it become the norm. On behalf of all the youngsters getting hurt under the dishrags, thanks. Oh, please. A hit dog will holler. He is obviously talking from the perspective of the average young jumper. Do you seriously think that if nobody says "boat", nobody is going to notice the difference between someone landing a Sabre2 190 and a Velocity 103? Which one is slower and less maneuverable? What do you think "boat" is meant to connote? Implying that he is contributing to the injury or death of skydivers is offensive. Too much too soon is a problem in basically every aspect of life. In the waters of 2008, a 190 is a boat. But you've still got to learn to drive the boat before you get to drive the jet ski. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #16 March 13, 2008 Quote You know too many turbine brats. Naah, ya know even when we had a super otter we spotted "by hand." Green light came on WAY early so we could look down and give corrections or decide when to climb out. Green only meant that it was ok with the pilot if we got out. Somehow that "system" kinda changed over the last couple years. But still, most people only think they can spot... Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnDeere 0 #17 March 13, 2008 I still jump a Sabre 2 170 boat (if that is what you want to call it). I still get respect from from the best swoopers at my DZ, and if i didnt i dont give a damn. I fly that "boat" pretty good for a newbe. By the way i dont know about all the damn girl scouts that are trying to impress the swoopers at there DZ, but i dont give a damn what any of them/you think. I stay in my comfort zone and dont care what anybody thinks about it. We are not in pre school any more, some need to quit acting like we are.Nothing opens like a Deere! You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jacketsdb23 49 #18 March 13, 2008 I in fact was trying to connotate the perception of many young jumpers who want to downsize to quickly. I was not saying smaller is better. I know all to well what small canopies can do. I grew up around the dropzone where 200+ square foot canopies were the norm for D license holders. I was trying to share a perspective I've seen.Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen God is Good Beer is Great Swoopers are crazy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lindsey 0 #19 March 13, 2008 Never met anyone with 170 jumps that knows how to spot. I haven't known too many people with 170 jumps who COULDN'T spot.-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blackout 0 #20 March 13, 2008 That is one of the advantages of being small, You can downsize to something "cool" and still be within a safe wing loading Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnDeere 0 #21 March 13, 2008 That is incorrect. Just cuase you are small does not mean that a small canopy is safe for you at a low wing loading. Define cool, my definision of cool is not getting hurt, and living to jump another day.Nothing opens like a Deere! You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brettski74 0 #22 March 13, 2008 Quote That is one of the advantages of being small, You can downsize to something "cool" and still be within a safe wing loading You need to go and talk to your instructors about that logic of yours to get it fixed. Look at the information coming out of virtually every reputable canopy coach and manufacturer who are all saying that small canopies (ie. anything under a 150) is still dangerous for an inexperienced pilot at *any* wing loading. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ladydyver 0 #23 March 13, 2008 this has been a consistent problem......how many threads in the last 2 months have we had about the same issue? As a healthcare professional it is nice to know I have job security DPH # 2 "I am not sure what you are suppose to do with that, but I don't think it is suppose to flop around like that." ~Skootz~ I have a strong regard for the rules.......doc! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ladydyver 0 #24 March 13, 2008 Quote Quote That is one of the advantages of being small, You can downsize to something "cool" and still be within a safe wing loading You need to go and talk to your instructors about that logic of yours to get it fixed. Look at the information coming out of virtually every reputable canopy coach and manufacturer who are all saying that small canopies (ie. anything under a 150) is still dangerous for an inexperienced pilot at *any* wing loading. this is pretty much what I was told...anything under a 150 is considered "higher performance" I don't usually say a whole lot in these threads as I am a newbie - but I am also one those people who will be on the team trying to resuscitate that person who goes in - lately with all of these threads I have been shaking my head alot and saying a lot of prayers for those who are low time jumpers with high wingloadings as well as for those who are jumping with them.|DPH # 2 "I am not sure what you are suppose to do with that, but I don't think it is suppose to flop around like that." ~Skootz~ I have a strong regard for the rules.......doc! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #25 March 13, 2008 Sit down with your mate and have a good chat with him. It's important you know how he wants things. I like the marble collection personally, or some of the Nambe one's look kinda cool. http://www.qualitycremation.com/catalog.htm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
