Andy9o8 2 #26 March 13, 2008 Newbies - and especially 100-jump wonders - should read, from beginning to end, both threads linked in this post I made in an earlier thread: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3004655#3004655 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #27 March 13, 2008 QuoteI in fact was trying to connotate the perception of many young jumpers who want to downsize to quickly. Exactly. That perception comes from somewhere...it comes from the "smaller is better" ego-tripping. I.E., "I fly a 99. You fly a big ol' boat." QuoteI was not saying smaller is better. I was not implying the YOU did. The perception is there and it's propagated by using terms such as "boat" in a derogatory manner. QuoteI was trying to share a perspective I've seen. ...and you did it well.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #28 March 13, 2008 QuoteOh, please. A hit dog will holler. He is obviously talking from the perspective of the average young jumper. Ya think? QuoteWhat do you think "boat" is meant to connote? You used it. You tell me what YOU think it means. You obviously didn't get the point. QuoteImplying that he is contributing to the injury or death of skydivers is offensive. Injury and death to any skydiver is offensive. Propagating the "smaller is better" attitude and the "gotta downsize" mentality gets people hurt. I hope you are offended enough to fight against that attitude and mentality. QuoteIn the waters of 2008, a 190 is a boat. See? You just don't get it.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,030 #29 March 13, 2008 Since he has 170 jumps, he's eligible for a USPA coach rating. Maybe he should get one, and then he could ask the coach for advice instead of getting it from the internet.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kris 0 #30 March 13, 2008 Pre-fill out his incident report and show him that it's only waiting for a date and signature. Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #31 March 13, 2008 Simple! Do _not_ feed the troll! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ficus 0 #32 March 13, 2008 QuoteQuoteWhat do you think "boat" is meant to connote? You used it. You tell me what YOU think it means. You obviously didn't get the point. I told you in the part you didn't quote: slower and less maneuverable. QuoteQuoteImplying that he is contributing to the injury or death of skydivers is offensive. Injury and death to any skydiver is offensive. Propagating the "smaller is better" attitude and the "gotta downsize" mentality gets people hurt. I hope you are offended enough to fight against that attitude and mentality. I think you don't understand my position. I don't think there is anything wrong with calling a 190 a boat. On the contrary, I think your attitude is harmful. Telling a new jumper that their 190 really is a Ferrari not only insults their intelligence, it robs you of influence. Who's going to listen to you when you are telling them how high-performance their canopy is while someone tears across the pond at 70mph? QuoteQuoteIn the waters of 2008, a 190 is a boat. See? You just don't get it. You may be right. But tell me why. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BillyVance 34 #33 March 13, 2008 Quote Sit down with your mate and have a good chat with him. It's important you know how he wants things. I like the marble collection personally, or some of the Nambe one's look kinda cool. http://www.qualitycremation.com/catalog.htm Very subtle! "Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,008 #34 March 13, 2008 >In the waters of 2008, a 190 is a boat. We say it is. But the water really hasn't changed, and will drown you every bit as fast as it did in 1988. That's what people miss. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,500 #35 March 13, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuoteIm curious, why do alot of people consider it so fashionable to downsize to "expert" wingloadings as quickly as possible, Because small canopies are fast and responsive. Fast + responsive = instant fun. If the most experienced jumpers at a drop zone were jumping a 300 square ft Challenger and landing on an accuracy pad...my bet is that is what everyone would want to jump. There's a guy at my DZ with eleventy thousand jumps who's been style and acc champion of the UK for something like the last decade. Do I want to get one of his accuracy canopies? Fuck no. Most people get into skydiving because they want to do something fast and extreme. Smaller canopies are faster, more extreme and more fun. Saying it's all about fashion or wanting to fit in puts you in grave danger of completely missing the point, IMO. I'm sure those things are factors for some people, but you cannot ignore the fact that fast is fun. Edit: I wonder if you've also considered the reason that many highly experienced jumpers are on pocket rockets in the first place? Could it be because they think speed is fun?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #36 March 13, 2008 QuoteI'm sure those things are factors for some people, but you cannot ignore the fact opinion that fast is fun. Fixed it for you."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot90 0 #37 March 13, 2008 Quote There's a guy at my DZ with eleventy thousand jumps who's been style and acc champion of the UK for something like the last decade. Do I want to get one of his accuracy canopies? Fuck no. how do you think he's lasted eleventy thousand jumps Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crashtested 0 #38 March 13, 2008 This is getting boaring now...... We need to change the Record.. let people do what they want to do, if you think they'll hurt themselfes get involved in the bounce bingo syndicate... or do something about the regulations and get them changed. harping on about it in these forums (theres been at least 3 simular things like this since jan) won't do anything apart from show that everyone has a different idea, about whats right or wrong with regards to canopy choice Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,030 #39 March 13, 2008 QuoteThis is getting boaring now...... We need to change the Record.. let people do what they want to do, if you think they'll hurt themselfes get involved in the bounce bingo syndicate... or do something about the regulations and get them changed. harping on about it in these forums (theres been at least 3 simular things like this since jan) won't do anything apart from show that everyone has a different idea, about whats right or wrong with regards to canopy choice When I look at the fatality data for the past decade (which I HAVE) I see a large number of experienced skydivers dying under perfectly good canopies too. So maybe your "Bounce Bingo" syndicate should apply to everyone and not just the inexperienced. PS 1.4333 is rather too many significant figures for the data as supplied.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ficus 0 #40 March 13, 2008 Quote>In the waters of 2008, a 190 is a boat. We say it is. But the water really hasn't changed, and will drown you every bit as fast as it did in 1988. That's what people miss. I'm not disputing that at all. Open up your Safire 189 and watch the Velocities fly by. Tell me you don't feel like a boat. What I'm saying is -- you're on a boat; that's fine. Maybe you don't yet have the skills to fly something faster. Maybe you have upsized for risk management reasons. Whatever the reason. The water is the same, but the environment is not. Trying to fix the problem by manufacturing bad words is no solution. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #41 March 13, 2008 Boats are relative Ficus Dear....It all depends on the engines that power them Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jacketsdb23 49 #42 March 13, 2008 I agree with this statement Kallend. However, we as a community have less influence on somebody who has 1000+ jumps - or whatever the "experienced" number of jumps is. They understand the risks and take them. Someone just off student status or as the OP says "new jumper" may not understand them and we (skydiving community) can help to direct the jumper to a reasonable canopy. If bounce bingo makes even one new jumper reflect on their canopy choice then I think its worth it.Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen God is Good Beer is Great Swoopers are crazy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BillyVance 34 #43 March 13, 2008 QuoteBoats are relative Ficus Dear....It all depends on the engines that power them Exactly. I load my Triathlon 120 at about 1.4 and have had larger canopies zip by me, piloted by jumpers who were loading them much higher."Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,008 #44 March 13, 2008 >Tell me you don't feel like a boat. You may feel like a boat. You may be unhappy. You may think that your Safire 189 is way slower, safer and altogether more boring than your Sabre 190 was in 1990, because no one was passing you on Velocities back then. My point is that that is an illusion. It's not true. That Safire 189 will kill you just as fast, if not faster, than that Sabre 190 did in 1990. Your feelings about it don't matter to the physics of the impact. >Trying to fix the problem by manufacturing bad words is no solution. Like "boat?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jacketsdb23 49 #45 March 13, 2008 Quote >Trying to fix the problem by manufacturing bad words is no solution. Like "boat?" Boat is used as a reference point to the other canopies flying around you. Its not derogatory or a bad word. It is what it is. A 120 would qualify as a boat with a WL of 1.5 if there were one hundred Luigi's jumping the 37 around it. Bottom line is we all agree that a 1.43 wingloading is high for a new jumper.Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen God is Good Beer is Great Swoopers are crazy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crashtested 0 #46 March 13, 2008 QuoteQuoteThis is getting boaring now...... We need to change the Record.. let people do what they want to do, if you think they'll hurt themselfes get involved in the bounce bingo syndicate... or do something about the regulations and get them changed. harping on about it in these forums (theres been at least 3 simular things like this since jan) won't do anything apart from show that everyone has a different idea, about whats right or wrong with regards to canopy choice When I look at the fatality data for the past decade (which I HAVE) I see a large number of experienced skydivers dying under perfectly good canopies too. So maybe your "Bounce Bingo" syndicate should apply to everyone and not just the inexperienced. PS 1.4333 is rather too many significant figures for the data as supplied. yeah why the hell not, Kallend, i agree with what you say on this subject, and in other threads on wingloading. I for one have also looked at the death data, and it suggests that we are all at risk regardless of experiance or canopy size. You can make your chances better. but sods law can bite you on the ass Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ficus 0 #47 March 13, 2008 Quote>Trying to fix the problem by manufacturing bad words is no solution. Like "boat?" Yes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
denete 3 #48 March 14, 2008 QuoteEdit: I wonder if you've also considered the reason that many highly experienced jumpers are on pocket rockets in the first place? Could it be because they think speed is fun? Hmmmm...or because they have short attention spans and overlooked a lot of fun that was still left in their slower canopies. It's the "Hungry Hungry Hippo" approach to skydiving. Jump in too fast, upgrade too fast, be only marginally adept, get bored because you never get much better, and then leave. What's more fun? Being so good with your big canopy that your control and its responses are tied together as though it was an extension of your mind, or having to work hard mentally just to have "iffy" outcomes with your rocket-chute because it teeters on the edge of instability for your abilities? Sure, speed is fun but so is being able to talk and chew food. (potentially irrelevant thought...The Tin Cup example: A good round of golf with golf clubs is impressive. A good round of golf with lawncare tools is amazing.)SCR #14809 "our attitude is the thing most capable of keeping us safe" (look, grab, look, grab, peel, punch, punch, arch) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jimmytavino 16 #49 March 14, 2008 regarding: "Fast is Fun"....... well i sure NEVER got into this sport... looking for FAST..... especially under canopy... I go plenty fast enought while i'm in freefall.... I sure do NOT have any sort of itch or drive, to go FAST under canopy..... Fast...never worked very well for me with women...or when i am tackling a tough task, or when i am working on something important, and I do NOT prefer it when i am under canopy. I am looking for directional controlability, decent toggle response, and good flares... i am not interested in flying fast.... close to the ground, or near any other canopies... While i admire swoopers and what they can do,,, it's not for me... so please do not think that fast = fun has relevance for all of us... safe landings... "right where i wanna BE "... that to me is fun. Landing ON the disc, in the pea gravel, and not just stabbing at it mid swoop, while flying tens of meteres PAST the target, to some sort of surf landing,,,, ANYwhere...is FUN... those whose parachuting experiences are with nothing but ram airs,,, either large OR small, seem to be unable to appreciate the agonizing slowness which preceeded todays rockets... Round cheapos, Para Commanders, Papillons, etc ... gave us a healthy sense of the need for control, and good canopy flying decision making.... I've had nothing BUT fun under canopy, and at NO time was it because i was going fast..... but hey... to each his own... let's be careful out there... upsize downsize, let's just stick with the right size..... jmy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tonyhays 86 #50 March 14, 2008 QuoteI was chatting with a friend who is new to the sport with 170 jumps. He is jumping a saber2 150 and exit weight is about 215. PD says this is expert wing loading. He said he's been trained and is ok with the risks. Then I ask one of his "canopy mentors" Mr. mentor said that he'd be ok. I asked what about landing out. His reply "He knows how to spot so that will not be a problem." Then I hear the newbie is getting a 135. If he is jumping with that wing loading, then he has received some piss poor training. If this "mister mentor" somehow has an instructional rating, well lets just say that wouldn't surprise me at all. Quote Is everyone nuts, or am I a safety nazi for thinking this does not look like a good idea? Does everyone who lands out not know how to spot? Less than year in the sport and flirting with disaster? Not a safety nazi at all. Unfortunately for some newbies they think common sense falls into that category. I grow tired of hearing about all these newbies jumping canopies at an unsafe wing loading. How 'bout a different approach.....tell them how it is dangerous, wrong, etc and how it can kill them. If they insist on doing it anyway, good for them. Fatalities and life flights out of the DZ bring more business in anyway. Makes my paycheck go up. Twisted? Of course. But apparently the words of people who have some experience and knowledge isn't getting through to them. Let the ground teach them the error of their ways. As I said in another post...If you're going to be stupid, you had better be tough.“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
